Satan vs God or humans?

BucephalusBB · Jul 4, 2006

For Satan, humans must be nothing more than puppets. God however must be his "enemy". So Satan is probably doing everything to annoy God and humans mean nothing to him.

When you die you must go to hell or heaven. I asume it is God who makes this decision. When you were bad you go down, when you are good you go up.
We all asume that you will get a horrible "life" down there, because Satan is evil. But if all bad people go down, the ones that "followed" Satan all their lives, wouldn't it be more logical that Satan gives them a perfect life, not for the humans, but mostly to annoy God?
If he does it the way we think he makes it pretty easy for God. He wouldn't mind punishing the bad.. But if Satan gives them good lives, then God has no more place to put the bad.. Also, Satan would be following God if he punishes the bad, why would Satan want to follow God? He went down just because he didn't want to

External note; this time you can't use scriptures from the bible as God made the bible happen, ofcourse he didn't want to tell us hell was a nice place and Satan would reward us for being bad.

extra note: this story does not apply to everybody ofcourse. I asume Danisty (sorry don't know how to make the cool D) for example would tell another story.

Ãanisty · Jul 4, 2006

This actually is very much like the story I'd tell. Satan rebelled against God and I don't see him now doing God's bidding. I've never believed that Satan punishes "bad" people in hell. I wouldn't say that humans mean nothing to him though. Of course, I don't see Satan and Lucifer as the same being anyway.

michel · Jul 4, 2006

I see it differently. I don't believe that Satan is a 'forever bad guy'. Angels, I am sure, have the ability to do good or evil; I cannot imagine anyone willingly wanting to remain evil in nature.

pandamonk · Jul 4, 2006

michel said:
I see it differently. I don't believe that Satan is a 'forever bad guy'. Angels, I am sure, have the ability to do good or evil; I cannot imagine anyone willingly wanting to remain evil in nature.

If by evil you mean apposing the Biblical god, then i think you are wrong. I, at least, think that if God is "goodness" then i would willingly want "to remain evil in nature". The god of the Bible is, in my opinion, the most distrcutive, manipulative, and evil being that ever could exist, and i don't see how anyone could think otherwise. If he created life, it was only for his enjoyment, and pleasure in making it suffer.

pandamonk · Jul 4, 2006

Bouncing Ball said:
For Satan, humans must be nothing more than puppets. God however must be his "enemy". So Satan is probably doing everything to annoy God and humans mean nothing to him.

When you die you must go to hell or heaven. I asume it is God who makes this decision. When you were bad you go down, when you are good you go up.
We all asume that you will get a horrible "life" down there, because Satan is evil. But if all bad people go down, the ones that "followed" Satan all their lives, wouldn't it be more logical that Satan gives them a perfect life, not for the humans, but mostly to annoy God?
If he does it the way we think he makes it pretty easy for God. He wouldn't mind punishing the bad.. But if Satan gives them good lives, then God has no more place to put the bad.. Also, Satan would be following God if he punishes the bad, why would Satan want to follow God? He went down just because he didn't want to

External note; this time you can't use scriptures from the bible as God made the bible happen, ofcourse he didn't want to tell us hell was a nice place and Satan would reward us for being bad.

extra note: this story does not apply to everybody ofcourse. I asume Danisty (sorry don't know how to make the cool D) for example would tell another story.

One way to refute this is to say that God does not want to see his creatures hurt, so that Satan is still opposing God in punishing them. God doesn't want to send them to hell, but knows how they will suffer if they do, because Satan, in opposing God, punishes his creations. Satan wants to punish them all and would do if Gdo did not step in and save the ones ho do not deserve it. I duno...this isn't my view, just how i think many christians would respond

robtex · Jul 4, 2006

Satan isn't well defined in Christianty and debating his existance is always challenging. Getting people to agree on what he is is a chor in and of itself. I would love to make a thread of thread of Michel thoughts on

"I cannot imagine anyone willingly wanting to remain evil in nature."

I think that could be quite a debate on RF. I think the paradigm presented by the religion that hosts his existance, Christianty, makes Satan hard to define. If he is given power God is no longer omnipotent and if he is not given power, than the idea that he can influence and temp man in his non-physical (aka we can't see him) existance becomes an invalid theory.

I feel Satan is a metaphor for what Christians feel is againt God's will, and a scapegoat for the wrong doing of man. But until there is some better defined idea of what Satan is, including where he dwells (aka where is Hell), what amount of power he does wield and his relationship to both man and God, the idea of who Satan is against, (man or God) is a ponderless point.

FerventGodSeeker · Jul 4, 2006

Bouncing Ball said:
Bouncing Ball said:

For Satan, humans must be nothing more than puppets. God however must be his "enemy". So Satan is probably doing everything to annoy God and humans mean nothing to him.

When you die you must go to hell or heaven. I asume it is God who makes this decision. When you were bad you go down, when you are good you go up.
We all asume that you will get a horrible "life" down there, because Satan is evil. But if all bad people go down, the ones that "followed" Satan all their lives, wouldn't it be more logical that Satan gives them a perfect life, not for the humans, but mostly to annoy God?
If he does it the way we think he makes it pretty easy for God. He wouldn't mind punishing the bad.. But if Satan gives them good lives, then God has no more place to put the bad.. Also, Satan would be following God if he punishes the bad, why would Satan want to follow God? He went down just because he didn't want to

Click to expand...

I'm confused how you came to all these conclusions outside the Bible...the very notion that a being named Satan exists derives from Christianity (or arguably Old Testament Judaism, I suppose) and the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.
For what it's worth, Satan doesn't rule over Hell, or punish people in Hell. Satan will one day be condemned to Hell himself (I would show you the Scripture, but you don't want me to, so....).

External note; this time you can't use scriptures from the bible as God made the bible happen

Click to expand...

What? God made the Bible happen? Are you a Christian or something?

FerventGodSeeker

Halcyon · Jul 4, 2006

FerventGodSeeker said:
For what it's worth, Satan doesn't rule over Hell, or punish people in Hell. Satan will one day be condemned to Hell himself (I would show you the Scripture, but you don't want me to, so....).

Indeed. According to the NT anyway, the Devil rules over the Earth.

robtex · Jul 4, 2006

Halcyon said:
Indeed. According to the NT anyway, the Devil rules over the Earth.

My undestanding of the NT is that he rules over Hell and God over Heaven. Earth is neutral grounds.

Super Universe · Jul 4, 2006

Lucifer was a created being and placed in a leadership position as the planetary prince. When he rebelled his close associates followed him. His second was Satan, also a created being. Further on down the line of rebels is Caligastia, a name most won't recognize, then there is Beelzebub who you should.

Normally the rebels would be dealt with immediately (annihilated) by higher angels, the Ancients of Days, but Lucifer chose to rebel during the time that Christ was bestowed on the earth.

Only after Christ's bestowal mission was completed did He assume the leadership position over this universe. After asking the rebels to repent the ones who refused were captured and sent for judgement in the universal court. Their sentence will assuredly be annihilation.

God has had no part in this.

Much too much credit has been given to these rebels because of the old (Jewish) traditions of preaching fear instead of promoting good. In the course of history many parents have used the bible to scare their children (read up on Charles Taze Russell, the inventor of JW religion).

Promoting fear is not what God is about. Anyone who does this does it in his own name, not God's.

FerventGodSeeker · Jul 4, 2006

robtex said:
My undestanding of the NT is that he rules over Hell and God over Heaven. Earth is neutral grounds.

Not so:
"Then the devil, taking Him (Christ) up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours. " Luke 4:5-7

The Devil will be punished by being thrown into Hell, he doesn't rule over it:

"The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Revelation 20:10

FGS

robtex · Jul 4, 2006

Super U. I noticed your religion is listed as Urantian. Did you base your post on the Christian Bible, or another religious reference? If so can you please provide some scripture to compliment your position so we could have a reference point to work with?

Revasser · Jul 4, 2006

Rob, have a look at http://www.urantia.org/

I've actually got a copy of the Urantia Book here. It's a very interesting read, though it needs to be tackled in stages. I'd heartily recommend checking it out.

Super Universe · Jul 4, 2006

My post comes from the Urantia Book.

The crazy nightmare that John had that became known as Revelations does have some true things in it (seven aspects of God) but most of it is a jumble of things taken out of context by a mind that has no understanding of extremely advanced universal concepts.

Also he does not understand the concept of time in his dream. A thousand years on the earth is one day in other parts of the universe.

John had an increased spiritual connection but he did not have the ability to understand everything that came to him.

What would John write if he had a dream about the space shuttle?

Jayhawker Soule · Jul 4, 2006

Super Universe said:
My post comes from the Urantia Book.

What does the Urantia book say about race?

robtex · Jul 4, 2006

Super Universe said:
My post comes from the Urantia Book.

this book?

http://www.urantia.org/detail.html

Halcyon · Jul 4, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
What does the Urantia book say about race?

:badger: After doing a quick google search, all i came up with was some stuff about blue, green and indigo people. Is this what you were referring to?
I couldn't be bothered to read it all, is it talking about skin colour or what?

michel · Jul 4, 2006

pandamonk said:
If by evil you mean apposing the Biblical god, then i think you are wrong. I, at least, think that if God is "goodness" then i would willingly want "to remain evil in nature". The god of the Bible is, in my opinion, the most distrcutive, manipulative, and evil being that ever could exist, and i don't see how anyone could think otherwise. If he created life, it was only for his enjoyment, and pleasure in making it suffer.

Well, you and I obviously have totally different opinions on God; I think yours is based not on Jesus Christ's teachings, but on the Old Testament scriptures.

I prefer to understand God through Jesus Christ.

robtex · Jul 4, 2006

michel said:
Well, you and I obviously have totally different opinions on God; I think yours is based not on Jesus Christ's teachings, but on the Old Testament scriptures.

I prefer to understand God through Jesus Christ.

That might be tricky. Jesus had writer's block when he walked the earth.

Ãanisty · Jul 4, 2006

pandamonk said:
If by evil you mean apposing the Biblical god, then i think you are wrong. I, at least, think that if God is "goodness" then i would willingly want "to remain evil in nature". The god of the Bible is, in my opinion, the most distrcutive, manipulative, and evil being that ever could exist, and i don't see how anyone could think otherwise. If he created life, it was only for his enjoyment, and pleasure in making it suffer.

Oh, I totally understand where you're coming from here. I may as well have made this post myself, but I chose not to get into it this time around.

Satan vs God or humans?

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