This gets interesting because we are examining core Christian beliefs and comparing them to what the Bible actually taught.
I'm scratching my head now. Remember, though, I don't see scripture as metaphorical. If scripture is right, I do believe Jesus is in the Eucharist. I do believe there was such things as sacrificial offerings (that still happen today from people I speak with. Who actually sacrifice animals for sin absolving.)
I do recall you have this tendency to take scripture literally and have reservations about allegory, symbolism, and metaphor.
We've discussed previously our different experiences of communion for me, and the Eucharist for you. We have different understandings. My understanding is biblically based. The last supper and what it means to eat the bread which represents to body and the wine symbolic of the new covenant shed for the remission of sins.
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Matthew 26:26-29
They were not literally eating Jesus's body or drinking His blood. The bread represented His body. The fluid in the cup represented His blood of the New Testament.
This drink representing His blood of the New testament would be shed for the remission of sins. These are clearly profound spiritual concepts including a metaphor for Christ's crucifixion. Christ's crucifixion is linked to remission of sins. The concept of sacrifice is clear.
The most famous is "I am the way, truth, and the light. The only way to the father is through me."
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
There is too many scriptures to quote, actually. According to jesus, to know god is to come through him. That's how people are saved is by jesus sacrifice. I don't see it as a metaphor. If it is true, to me, it would be literal. I find it odd any christian would think their salvation is symbolic.
I have explained John14:6. It is not a case of metaphor but historic context that we come to understand the most obvious meaning, that He is the Promised One or the Jewish Messiah prophesised in the OT (do you think this is cultural appropriation by Christ?).
The concept of Jesus being the 'Son of God' is profound and has symbolism and allegory that relates to both the OT and New Covenant/Testament.
When you say we are saved through Jesus sacrifice we need to understand what is meant otherwise it starts to sound like a human sacrifice in the sense that animals were slaughtered to appease the gods of old. It is not literally like that.
The reason Jesus was crucified by the Romans after being interrogated by Caiaphas the chief priest of the Jews, was not because they were performing a human sacrifice. It was because of a rejection of Jesus's claim to be the Messiah. Jesus knew this would happen and agreed to be crucified. It was part of a Divine plan and provided us with one of the most potent symbols in religious history, pregnant with many meanings.
Based on your experience, was your experienced based on a metaphor or something that actually happened to you as a christian?
I go off my experience. If I went off my knowledge, well, I disagree with a lot of what scripture says but it doesn't mean it's a metaphor just means to me, it's false. To many christians it is not. Since christians make up the body of christ, they should have some authority to speak about christ. If the apostles can, why can't christians?
I am eternally grateful for the sacrifice Jesus made to save my soul. However His life was a sacrifice, not just the crucifixion and in that manner we should all pick up our crosses and walk with Him (Matthew 10:38). We do not literally pick up a cross as Jesus did and ask the authorities to reinstate capital punishment Roman style. We sacrifice our lower nature (ego, desire, and passions) so the qualities of Christ become manifest in us. We become loving, compassionate, just, kind, and steadfast in His ways. That is not a head thing but living the life. That is walking the spiritual path with practical feet. It is also starting to sound very much like what people of other faiths do.
The apostles were inspired by God's unerring spirit. Some Christians can aspire to great heights too, but many fall short. What a Christian says or believes does not carry the same weight as the words and actions of either Jesus himself or His apostles.
Think about it, though. Unless your salvation is metaphorical, I'm kinda confused.
If jesus actually existed as a historical figure and the Romans existed and did crucify him, I'd assume that the Jews existed to accuse him and the Romans actually did the killing. I don't see any reason to doubt this historical nature of this if it is true.
We are agreed about the history around the crucifixion and there is no good reason I have to doubt it.
Since jesus said he was the only way to god and god continuously said that jesus is their salvation in one way or another, I would also assume that unlike metaphors, he actually said he takes the sins upon himself as people have died or crucified their sins in christ so they can live.
Jesus also said there are many sheep not of this fold. John 10:16
Salvation is about both faith and deeds. Jesus on the cross helps us to understand this and the sacrifice we need to make in our lives.
We can not understand this, unless we live it. It must be a living part of our lives, not a memory of how things used to be when we called ourselves Christians. Our experience of Jesus within us is ever changing and must be responsive to the changes in our lives as well as the changes of these times we live in.
In other words, jesus is flesh. Flesh is sin (literal because we do sin, of course). Jesus teachings teach christians about god and the nature of sin. He also teaches that through himself-his flesh-that people are crucified in/in him, they die to their flesh-which people actually do-they are saved.
Jesus was a human like us, but it was His Divine qualities that enabled His perfection. This Divine qualities were reflected in His Life and teachings of which the crucifixion was only a part.
They aren't saved by the apostles, none of the jews, the pharisee, no one else but jesus.
However the apostles help us understand the significance of Jesus and the meaning of His teachings and Life. They assist our understanding and therefore to live the life. Our salvation through Christ is on a weak foundation if we reject the apostles who were profoundly inspired by Him.
So, when jesus died the Church/body of believers formed and spread Christ's teachings (the Father's Words) to neighboring lands in Acts.
The Church became the new body of Christ. That is affirmed when we have communion. We are in the body of Christ and Christ is in us.
His resurrection was a confirmation that when people die in their sins, live like christ, they will be in union with god.
His resurrection unlike His crucifixion could not possibly have happened as recorded in the gospels. Regardless it is allegorical for the Eternal life we all can have through Christ. I know you do not believe in God or an eternal soul so just explaining how I see it. I know you disagree with how I view the resurrection. Yet your belief in a physical resurrection assumes a Powerful God that you don't seem to believe in.
These things people actually do. They actually repent to die to their sins and live a new life. It isn't metaphorical. Their association with jesus' death and his words isn't metaphorical. They literally do believe that jesus, through his flesh, lead the way for them to live his teachings by faith so they can be resurrected. Jesus taught this in light during the Lesurath event. The faith brought the man alive. When people put faith in jesus because his words is of his father, they will be resurrected. They can't be resurrected without sacrifice.
Sure they repent but how many times can you say sorry until it becomes meaningless. If your partner is violent towards you, says sorry, and then does the same thing all over again the next time and the day after? How many ties should you forgive him? Seven times seventy? Matthew 18:21-22
No I'm not advocating domestic violence. We need to change our ways if we are truly to repent. We need to look deeper to understand the words of Jesus, otherwise are conclusions will be false.
In the OT, people actually sacrifice lambs so that their sins will die/blood of the lamb/life of the lamb dies so they are in union with god. Sacrifice like this is done today. It's all literal.
If it was metaphorical, why would we need to do anything to be saved. Why would scripture say god judges by people's works if his plan was metaphorical?
Ahh, the metaphor of the slain lamb or the blood of the lamb. Was Jesus physically a lamb?
Catholicism is a pretty literal faith because, unlike protestant christianity where symbolism is hightened, in Catholicism, the literal sacraments and experience is emphasised. When you are baptized, you are literally baptized not metaphorically. Repentence (or confessing one's sins) is actually confession. When people take bread and wine (the sacrificial meal) they do so literally because it literally (if you look at the people in Mass) brings more than one person together and this, in scripture, makes jesus present in his body which, in Catholicism, is seen through jesus last meal.
I just love the Catholics.
The resurrection after taking the Eucharist is a confirmation of the promised to be with god forever.
Eternal life you mean?
I don't see how a relationship with christ can be metaphorical. Sacrifice plays a huge part in christianity. To me, it is barbaric, but at least we don't put people in electric chairs because they disagree with our religious and political views. But that is now. Back then outside of America was quite different.
If sacrifice to you is barbaric, is it possible you have the wrong understanding of what Jesus and the apostles really taught in regards sacrifice?
