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A Christian persective of God and Country

Melody

Well-Known Member
MysticSang'ha said:
I also find some of your comments that claim that you'd be happy to be considered a "bigot"............. frightening. :( I don't believe that you really feel that way,

If bigot means I believe that a country without God has a questionable future...then yes, I am a bigot. I don't believe that is the definition of a bigot except in the minds of the intolerant.
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Maize said:
I would really appreciate it if someone who thinks that there is nothing wrong with that movie could answer these questions for me:Is this what Christians want to happen? If so, what becomes of us non-Christians if this happens? Can you see why quotes like these alarm us? Do our concerns matter?

No Maize....I found that quote objectionable as well. Do we label something bad and horrible because of one thing we disagree on? There are aspects about our government that I find objectionable...but I don't label it all as horribly gone wrong.
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
MysticSang'ha said:
I see the video as insulting to anyone non-Christian, and even though that isn't "forcing" me to convert, it encourages exclusion.

No, it doesn't encourage exclusion. It merely puts forth one viewpoint. You admit that it's not forcing you to convert. Do you also recognize that you're asking me to "convert" by asking me to deny my belief that a country without God is heading down the wrong path....since Scripture tells me that there is no good without God? Romans, I believe.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Melody said:
No Maize....I found that quote objectionable as well. Do we label something bad and horrible because of one thing we disagree on? There are aspects about our government that I find objectionable...but I don't label it all as horribly gone wrong.

I'm sorry, I can't just gloss over that quote and think everything is hunky-dory if that's how most Christians really feel. It is very alarming to me if they indeed do feel that way.
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
PureX said:
But can you at least see that claiming yourselves to be superior to the rest of us because you're Christians would be insulting to people?
Calling religious bigotry, religious bigotry, has nothing to do with politics. It simply is what it is.
I'm not labeling you as anything. That's not my place nor desire. I'm merely pointing out that some Christians are religious bigots, and that their bigotry justifiably offends other people.

PureX,
Nobody is claiming superiority. We merely have a specific belief that we must live by. It's not a matter of superiority or inferiority. It just is.

When an atheist puts up a website with what I see as the twisting of scripture, I don't call them a bigot for their belief or believe they feel they are somehow superior because of their beliefs. I accept that it's just their opinion. I don't need to accept it or agree with it. I merely need to be tolerant of the fact that they have the right to their opinion.

Why is that so difficult to understand and reciprocate?
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Maize said:
I've just realized that true acceptance and tolerance of all religions is not possible when even one religion feels itself morally superior over others and is the only true religion.

You're wrong, Maize. There can be true acceptance and tolerance of all faiths....if people put aside their emotional baggage which colors their thinking.

Christians don't claim superiority. In fact, Scripture admonishes us to be humble.

But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
“ God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble

James 4:6

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1 Peter 5:5

Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
James 4:10

Where you see superiority, I see conviction of faith. It's not about superiority or inferiority. I am a sinner and Scripture says no sin is greater than another....so how could I possibly be superior to anyone?

Do I accept that other religions may also be a path to God. I don't know. I know what Scripture *says*....I'm just not sure it's being interpreted correctly. All I can do is tell people what I believe and it's up to them...and God...to figure out the rest. I know many Christians with this view.

Do I tolerate other religions? Most assuredly...until they try to force me into disavowing my own beliefs. Which it seems some of you wish me to do...not all...but some.

Since I've made my position pretty clear and don't know how to explain it any better, I will wish you all peace. I may not agree with you...but I respect you. :)
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Melody said:
I may not agree with you...but I respect you. :)
I respect you too... but do you respect and accept my religion is a true and equal path to God? I do yours, but I don't feel the same back when I'm told by some Christians that I'm going to hell for not following their religion.

I've started a thread about this, here.
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
It seems in this land of religious freedom where atheism, witchcraft, satanism and multi-god religions are accepted and tolerated....christianity is not. How....tolerant.
I'm sorry to say, I find this kind of thinking absurd. Clearly Christians are the majority and have more influence over this country than any other group. To say that you are less tolerated than atheists, wiccans, satanists, and polytheists comes off as a cheap attempt at some sort of martyr mentality. Do you have to feel discriminated against to feel important? That's the way it seems when Christians make claims like this.

It did not say you were unpatriotic if you weren't a christian or didn't feel the same way.
It did not say you were anti-american if you weren't a christian or didn't feel the same way.
It did not say everyone should be forced into this belief.
What the video said to me was that as a non-Christian, I don't really have any right to celebrate Independence Day because I don't love God and country. What bothers me the most about videos like this is that the people who make them intentionally make them to send out this kind of message and do it in such a way that sets people up to advertise their religion at the expense of people with other beliefs. I'm sure you never intended to do that, but I have no doubt that the people who made the video did so in such a way to make the "rest of us" uncomfortable and put you in a position to preach to us.

See, this is why many Christians feel that we are 'under attack' and why you don't understand it. You don't even try to understand our views and presume that when we express our faith, that it's somehow an attempt to infringe on your rights.
I'm sorry, but as a Luciferian who endulges in the celebration of Christmas, I think you're wrong about a lot of non-Christians. As a person of faith, I'd love to be able to express mine and totally respect the expression of anyone's faith. This video, however, didn't just express faith. It takes a group of people (patriotic Americans) and divides it in such a way that causes animosity for no good reason other than to make themselves feel more important.

Nobody is claiming superiority. We merely have a specific belief that we must live by. It's not a matter of superiority or inferiority. It just is.
Melody, you should speak for yourself. If you are not claiming superiority, by all means say so. That doesn't mean that the people who made that video or other people who watched and shared that video aren't claiming superiority. The problem that I guess I have is that you imply over and over again that you really do feel that Christianity is superior...not just the best religion for you to follow, but the best religion for everyone to follow. I'm certainly under no delusion that Luciferianism is for everyone. It's absolutely not the best religion for most people. Do I think being a Luciferian has made me a better person? Of course, or I would not follow it. For me, Luciferianism is the only right belief. I'm not advocating a Luciferian America though. How would you feel if I made a video implying that Independence Day should be celebrated through Luciferianism because Lucifer is the ultimate advocate of freedom?
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Even I know when I'm beating my head against a brick wall. Those who choose to misunderstand, will continue to misunderstand and nothing I say will obviously make a difference. Peace.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Melody said:
PureX,
Nobody is claiming superiority.
Sure they are. They're clearly implying that people who believe in God, and they mean people who believe in their idea of God, are morally superior to those who don't. And they also claim that if Americans choose not to believe in their God, they will be destroyed by their own immorality. The "they" in this case are the people who made that video clip, and the people who agree with it.
Melody said:
When an atheist puts up a website with what I see as the twisting of scripture, I don't call them a bigot for their belief or believe they feel they are somehow superior because of their beliefs. I accept that it's just their opinion.
Being bigoted is not merely having and expressing an opinion. Bigotry is irrationally claiming that one's own opinion isn't an opinion, but is the truth, and that all opinions to the contrary are automatically untrue simply because they are contrary to the bigot's own. We all have our opinions about what's true, but a bigot denies that his opinions are opinions, and instead claims they are the truth, and then automatically judges and condemns and dismisses everyone else's opinions based on this falsly presumed "truth".
Melody said:
I don't need to accept it or agree with it. I merely need to be tolerant of the fact that they have the right to their opinion. Why is that so difficult to understand and reciprocate?
I do understand it, but I don't think you're being as tolerant as you think you're being. And that's why you don't understand the reaction you're seeing, here.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
I haven't read all the way through this thread...just the first four pages after watching the video and I have to say.....Wow! I am amazed and alarmed at how angry everyone got about the video.

This is a religious forum for goodness sakes! There is no reason whatsoever to be insulted or feel slighted by that video. You all know fromtheheart and have to know she meant the best of wishes when she posted it.

There are a few people who should be ashamed of themselves, I am.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Buttercup said:
I haven't read all the way through this thread...just the first four pages after watching the video and I have to say.....Wow! I am amazed and alarmed at how angry everyone got about the video.
Would you be surprised if the video were called "White America," and displayed a collection of martial and patriotic images together with a collection of racist quotations from the founding fathers? Would you view it as a "celebration" of White heritage, and as something that non-white people shouldn't take offense at?

CaptainXeroid said:
See, this is why many Christians feel that we are 'under attack' and why you don't understand it. You don't even try to understand our views and presume that when we express our faith, that it's somehow an attempt to infringe on your rights.
Considering that we have frequent experience of Christians attempting to infringe on our rights -- often successfully -- is that really so hard for you to understand?

CaptainXeroid said:
This kind of blind hatred that you and some other non-believers spew at people of faith is a main reason some beleiver dismiss your opinions. You are oblivious to your own rudeness and arrogance and instead you project those attributes onto other people. It's a cowardly and despicable way to carry yourself in a debate, but I guess it's your style. Your desire to shout down opposing opinions makes your arguments seem even angrier and more arrogant, yet you are even more oblivious.
Okay, in this one paragraph you've accused PureX of blind hatred, rudeness, arrogance, cowardice, and anger. Which of you is it, in fact, who is attempting to "shout down opposing opinions"?

Note also that that you've referred to PureX and those who agree with him as "you and some other non-believers", reserving the label "people of faith" for those who share not only your own faith, but your own particular view of it. If that isn't bigotry, what is?
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
MidnightBlue said:
Would you be surprised if the video were called "White America," and displayed a collection of martial and patriotic images together with a collection of racist quotations from the founding fathers? Would you view it as a "celebration" of White heritage, and as something that non-white people shouldn't take offense at?
As I stated, I watched it....and found nothing to be offended about. I surely didn't see anything racist displayed in it either.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
I went out for a while and of course was thinking about this thread. I realized that what put me off about the movie has to do with the title of this thread American Familes God and Country. I saw the thread and though it would be something about American families (such as mine) but instead we see a movie about Christians and Christian ideals and what Christians want this country to be backed up by alarming quotes. What about my American family? We were lead to believe that this movie represented American families, so is my family not American because we are not Christian? Why can't people understand why we were offended by some of those quotes that seem hostile to non-Christians?

And please, next time you don't want to hear dissenting views, put it in your DIR forum. Expecting people to not comment on something they find offensive on the open forum is not realistic.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Buttercup said:
As I stated, I watched it....and found nothing to be offended about. I surely didn't see anything racist displayed in it either.
No, I didn't mean it was racist. I meant that religious bigotry is as offensive as racist bigotry. Obviously, not everyone agrees that it is. :(
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
MidnightBlue said:
No, I didn't mean it was racist. I meant that religious bigotry is as offensive as racist bigotry. Obviously, not everyone agrees that it is. :(
Of course it's a Christian released video....so friggin what? What other POV would you expect them to adhere to? But the video in no way, shape or form implies those that don't hold that religious view are unpatriotic. It is merely expressing love for country with quotes from our founding fathers....??? It's a religious video from a Christian perspective! And yes I can understand there are those who would disagree with Christian ethics....My point is that fromtheheart did not deserve this disrepect.
 

Revasser

Terrible Dancer
Am I the only one that had a really good laugh at this video? Really, the pure, unadultered "patriotic" hokiness made me laugh out loud. It was well worth the time to download it. :D

I'm at a bit of a loss as to why people were offended. I have trouble even believing this thing isn't satire, let alone being offended by it.

But I'm not an American, so that probably has something to do with it. I do agree, though, that if dissenting opinions were not desired the Christanity DIR forum would have been a more suitable venue.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Buttercup said:
My point is that fromtheheart did not deserve this disrepect.
My point is that those of us who are not Christians did not deserve this disrespect.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
MidnightBlue said:
My point is that those of us who are not Christians did not deserve this disrespect.

If I may ask, what disrespect? If you saw the title had God, American Families and Country in it, then why did you even view it? If you knew it was going to bother you, why view it? Why even give it a second thought? Do any of you really think From the Heart set out to offend each and every one of you? If so, I would think you have a bit of reassessing to do. There are Christians on this forum that would appreciate that video and FTH was aiming it at them, not you.

FTH said several times this was not meant to disrespect anyone. She did not place it in a debate section, she placed in in Family and personal living for goodness sake.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
beckysoup61 said:
FTH said several times this was not meant to disrespect anyone. She did not place it in a debate section, she placed in in Family and personal living for goodness sake.

I think we've concluded that all of this would have been avoided if the thread had been in the Christianity forum, which I take full responsbility for. I should have moved it once I saw the content of the movie which with the title of the thread is clearly offensive to some Americans with families that are not Christian.
 
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