A Christian persective of God and Country

Green Gaia · Jul 4, 2006

"I pray for the day in the future, that all citizens of the United States shall bend their knee to the cross of Jesus Christ, and cry out, 'Christ first, my country second!' I pray for the day that the flag shall not be flown on the flag pole, but nailed to the cross of Jesus Christ!"

Yeah, that was the one that really got to me too. It's an advocation of a Christian theocracy, which is quite frightening for those of us who are not christian to think about.

PureX · Jul 4, 2006

Maize said:
Yeah, that was the one that really got to me too. It's an advocation of a Christian theocracy, which is quite frightening for those of us who are not christian to think about.

Not to mention that it's essentially advocating treason. For such a theocracy to occur, the United States of America as it currently exists would have to be over-thrown.

Sunstone · Jul 4, 2006

Maize said:
I tried to ignore this, I really did Melody, but I'm sorry, you all know me, I can't keep my mouth shut when I don't agree with something...

But, I'll just say that as a non-Christian I don't agree with your above statement, because I've experienced the opposite: mainstream Christianity is the only religion that is truly accepted and tolerated in this country. All others are viewed as suspect and are looked down upon by many people. Christianity is the majority and the majority of the country is Christian and always has been, so to say that it is not accepted and tolerated doesn't make mathmatical sense to me unless you're saying that Christians don't accept and tolerate themselves.

I have to agree with Amy here.

Moreover, while I've heard some pretty harsh things said of Christians (sometimes by other Christians), I am also very much aware, as a non-theist, of some pretty harsh things said about non-theists by some Christians. This is a society in which everyone gets his or her share of criticism, and in which many people on every side of every issue firmly believe they get much more than their fair share of criticism.

I wish we could all just get along without unduely harping on each other. I don't mean without criticizing each other: I mean without harping. Just say what you feel you must, debate it when appropriate, but then drop it is my philosophy. After all, for every one difference between people there are a thousand similarities. Humans are basically humans above all else.

James the Persian · Jul 4, 2006

Maize said:
Yeah, that was the one that really got to me too. It's an advocation of a Christian theocracy, which is quite frightening for those of us who are not christian to think about.

Well, to be honest and speaking as a Christian, I find those sorts of sentiments truly horrifying also. And I'm pretty sure that I can imagine what the fate of those of us who are Christian but not Protestant would be in such a theocracy also, and it isn't pretty. I didn't watch the videa and can honestly say that, having read the responses to it here, I'm glad I didn't. I'd put my vote in with the non-Christians here in objecting to such things (even though I'm not American or non-Christian myself).

James

Melody · Jul 4, 2006

Maize said:
Perhaps the difference is the area of the country we live in. Here in the Bible belt one is expected to be Christian and if you're not a Christian, there must be something wrong with you and you are viewed as suspect.

Could be. I live 45 minutes away from the state capitol and two major universities and our community, as well as many others, is just a bedroom community for these two cities. Maybe you should come up here.

Melody · Jul 4, 2006

JamesThePersian said:
Well, to be honest and speaking as a Christian, I find those sorts of sentiments truly horrifying also. And I'm pretty sure that I can imagine what the fate of those of us who are Christian but not Protestant would be in such a theocracy also, and it isn't pretty. I didn't watch the videa and can honestly say that, having read the responses to it here, I'm glad I didn't. I'd put my vote in with the non-Christians here in objecting to such things (even though I'm not American or non-Christian myself).

James

This clip did not say you were anti-american or unpatriotic if you weren't christian <sigh>. It did promote the view that without God, the future of this country was questionable. I see nothing offensive about that. It's no different than atheists who say (and I've seen it in several threads) that the presence of God and religion are degrading our country.

Melody · Jul 4, 2006

PureX said:
That video clip is an expression of religious bigotry. It's quite offensive to some of us.

How is it bigotry....unless you deny that people have the right to believe that a country without God has a shaky or questionable future. Sounds like political correctness to me.

If you consider that bigotry....then I am happy to claim the title of bigot.

James the Persian · Jul 4, 2006

Melody said:
This clip did not say you were anti-american or unpatriotic if you weren't christian <sigh>. It did promote the view that without God, the future of this country was questionable. I see nothing offensive about that. It's no different than atheists who say (and I've seen it in several threads) that the presence of God and religion are degrading our country.

I didn't say it did and, in fact, admitted to not having seen it. I was responding only to the exerpt quoted by Maize. That does, in fact, paint me a picture of a Protestant theocracy which I could never support and would likely as not consign me to a gulag. Such political ideas do indeed seem frightening to me, however unlikely they are to ever actually be realised. You are correct, however, that extreme atheist views blaming all the ills of society on religion are just as dangerous and just as offensive as the extreme theocratic views expounded in that quote.

James

Melody · Jul 4, 2006

MysticSang'ha said:
I do not feel that this the love for my country can be shared with someone like me by watching this video. I feel that this video was only meant to be enjoyed by U.S. citizens who are Christian.........and therefore, I feel marginalized and uninvited to celebrate Independence Day with this crowd.

Mystic...that's the point. It *was* meant for christians.

I feel as if I'm beating my head against a brick wall. This clip was *obviously* put together by *Christian* who feel that without *God*, the future of our country is questionable.

It did not say you were unpatriotic if you weren't a christian or didn't feel the same way.
It did not say you were anti-american if you weren't a christian or didn't feel the same way.
It did not say everyone should be forced into this belief.

Green Gaia · Jul 4, 2006

Melody said:
It did not say you were unpatriotic if you weren't a christian or didn't feel the same way.
It did not say you were anti-american if you weren't a christian or didn't feel the same way.
It did not say everyone should be forced into this belief.

You're right. It's didn't say those things, but the implication was clear.

Andrew Johnson said:
"I pray for the day in the future, that all citizens of the United States shall bend their knee to the cross of Jesus Christ, and cry out, 'Christ first, my country second!' I pray for the day that the flag shall not be flown on the flag pole, but nailed to the cross of Jesus Christ!"

Is this what Christians want to happen? If so, what becomes of us non-Christians if this happens? Can you see why quotes like these alarm us?

PureX · Jul 4, 2006

Melody said:
How is it bigotry....unless you deny that people have the right to believe that a country without God has a shaky or questionable future. Sounds like political correctness to me.

If you consider that bigotry....then I am happy to claim the title of bigot.

It's religious bigotry to assume without evidence or reason that believing in the Christian god makes people better people. Clearly this is the basic idea being presented in the clip.

It's no different than the racial bigotry that assumes without evidence or reason that white skinned people are superior to people of other skin colors, or the sexual bigotry that assumes without evidence or reason that women are weak-minded or that homosexuality causes the ethical and moral decay of society.

MysticSang'ha · Jul 4, 2006

Melody said:
Mystic...that's the point. It *was* meant for christians.

I feel as if I'm beating my head against a brick wall. This clip was *obviously* put together by *Christian* who feel that without *God*, the future of our country is questionable.

It did not say you were unpatriotic if you weren't a christian or didn't feel the same way.
It did not say you were anti-american if you weren't a christian or didn't feel the same way.
It did not say everyone should be forced into this belief.

If it was obvious that the video clip was meant for Christians, then why was the OP in "Family and Personal Living" where forum members of all faiths are encouraged to participate in?

*rhetorical question to follow, honestly not meant to be overtly confrontational*
I don't believe following Christ will result in the decay of our country. Do you believe following the Buddha's teachings (which has little to do with God) will result in the decay of our country? Somehow, the video and what I gather from your posts is that there is the idea that following the Buddha's teachings will destroy our country, and that following Christ will protect our country from destruction AND empower it.

The video as being meant only for Christians encourages the marginalization of non-Christians. Where can WE celebrate love for our country when we are excluded...........and especially by the video's impressions that this is what our founding fathers wanted?

Peace,
Mystic

Melody · Jul 4, 2006

PureX said:
It's religious bigotry to assume without evidence or reason that believing in the Christian god makes people better people. Clearly this is the basic idea being presented in the clip.

We've had this conversation before. Unlike many other religions, Christianity does not believe there are many paths to God and they believe in only one God. Therefore, they will promote the idea that a belief in the Christian God does make better people. If they didn't, they'd be hypocrites.

To claim it's bigotry smacks of political correctness. So, feel free to label me as a bigot. I have to answer to a higher authority and will not compromise my beliefs in the name of political correctness.

CaptainXeroid · Jul 4, 2006

PureX said:
You don't get to decide for other people what's a proper reaction.

So, what you're saying is that you have the right to voice an opinion, but I don't have the right to challenge it. Now, that is pure arrogance

PureX said:
See, this is why we find these kinds of things so offensive, and why you don't understand it. You don't even try to understand it. You just assume that your view is the only reasonable view and that everyone else's view must be an "overreaction".

See, this is why many Christians feel that we are 'under attack' and why you don't understand it. You don't even try to understand our views and presume that when we express our faith, that it's somehow an attempt to infringe on your rights.

PureX said:
That kind of blind arrogance toward other people's ideas and feelings is why other people often find Christians and their ideologies and expressions of faith so rude and obnoxious. The fact that you're oblivious to your own ignorance of other people's feelings and ideas doesn't excuse the rudeness and arrogance that results from it. And we tend to speak up and out loudly about it because it's obvious to us that ignoring us.

This kind of blind hatred that you and some other non-believers spew at people of faith is a main reason some beleiver dismiss your opinions. You are oblivious to your own rudeness and arrogance and instead you project those attributes onto other people. It's a cowardly and despicable way to carry yourself in a debate, but I guess it's your style. Your desire to shout down opposing opinions makes your arguments seem even angrier and more arrogant, yet you are even more oblivious.

PureX said:
If you walked into a room of mixed race people, throwing the word "n___r" around, obviously you're going to offend some people. But you would be forgiven if when their offense was voiced, you stopped using the word. But when you ignore their objections and continue to use the offensive word because you're so sure that it's the "right" word to use, you have to expect a pretty strong reaction.

:biglaugh:If you are likening this movie to a racial slur, then you really have ZERO understanding as to the message it was conveying.

PureX said:
That video clip is an expression of religious bigotry. It's quite offensive to some of us.

If you found that 'quite' offensive', then maybe you are a little too thin skinned to exist in the real world. It's rather harmless.

PureX said:
We realize that "fromtheheart" didn't see the bigotry in

Some of you think there's bigotry in it, there are a lot of other people who know there isn't.

PureX said:
it so we pointed it out to her in a way that lets her know how we feel

Yes, you certainly did.

PureX said:
about it (not about her, but about the bigotry in the clip).

Now, we know this statement is incorrect.

PureX said:
So the question is, will she (and you) respect the feelings and ideas of others in the future, or will she (and you) further insult us by insisting that our feelings and ideas about this are meaningless simply because they don't align with your own?

So, the bottom line is that you have your opinions and feeling which you are free to express, but you don't believe others have the right to disagree or challenge them. You feel that you have to right to insult people of faith, and feel that they are insulting you merely by expressing their faith.

So, the real question is will you (and others) further insult us by insisting that out feeling and ideas about this are meaningless simply because they don't align with your own? From what we've seen so far, that answer is an unequivocable and unfortunate 'yes'.

Melody · Jul 4, 2006

MysticSang'ha said:
If it was obvious that the video clip was meant for Christians, then why was the OP in "Family and Personal Living" where forum members of all faiths are encouraged to participate in?

Not knowing where else to place it or not thinking it would be so highly offensive to people? The mods can easily change that by moving it.

The video as being meant only for Christians encourages the marginalization of non-Christians. Where can WE celebrate love for our country when we are excluded...........and especially by the video's impressions that this is what our founding fathers wanted?

You can celebrate it anywhere or anyway you choose. Unlike some, I'm not denying you the right to believe or practice your belief or trying to force you into my view. Neither was the video. It merely represented one view.

MysticSang'ha · Jul 4, 2006

Melody said:
We've had this conversation before. Unlike many other religions, Christianity does not believe there are many paths to God and they believe in only one God. Therefore, they will promote the idea that a belief in the Christian God does make better people. If they didn't, they'd be hypocrites.

To claim it's bigotry smacks of political correctness. So, feel free to label me as a bigot. I have to answer to a higher authority and will not compromise my beliefs in the name of political correctness.

Yes, Melody. I realize that you will put your faith as the highest priority in your life........and I applaud that. Not all Christians that I have come across think that their belief is the only way to salvation, though. And not all Christians that I have come across believe that only Christianity makes for good people and good citizens. I hope you didn't mean to brand them as hypocrites. I think that would be a little harsh.

I also find some of your comments that claim that you'd be happy to be considered a "bigot"............. frightening.

I don't believe that you really feel that way, since I know you have always conducted yourself with dignity, intelligence, and honesty. We can agree to disagree, as we have on occasion, but please don't allow yourself to enjoy being called a bigot. You're much better than that. :flower:

Peace,
Mystic

Green Gaia · Jul 4, 2006

I would really appreciate it if someone who thinks that there is nothing wrong with that movie could answer these questions for me:

Andrew Johnson said:
"I pray for the day in the future, that all citizens of the United States shall bend their knee to the cross of Jesus Christ, and cry out, 'Christ first, my country second!' I pray for the day that the flag shall not be flown on the flag pole, but nailed to the cross of Jesus Christ!"

Is this what Christians want to happen? If so, what becomes of us non-Christians if this happens? Can you see why quotes like these alarm us? Do our concerns matter?

MysticSang'ha · Jul 4, 2006

Melody said:
Not knowing where else to place it or not thinking it would be so highly offensive to people? The mods can easily change that by moving it.

Fair enough.

Melody said:
You can celebrate it anywhere or anyway you choose. Unlike some, I'm not denying you the right to believe or practice your belief or trying to force you into my view. Neither was the video. It merely represented one view.

I see the video as insulting to anyone non-Christian, and even though that isn't "forcing" me to convert, it encourages exclusion. It isn't just "one view", it claims with a loud voice that this "one view" is the "only right view" and all other views are open to harassment and social abandonment. I guess we're at an impasse, then.

*extends olive branch*

Peace,
Mystic

PureX · Jul 4, 2006

Melody said:
We've had this conversation before. Unlike many other religions, Christianity does not believe there are many paths to God and they believe in only one God. Therefore, they will promote the idea that a belief in the Christian God does make better people. If they didn't, they'd be hypocrites.

But can you at least see that claiming yourselves to be superior to the rest of us because you're Christians would be insulting to people?

Melody said:
To claim it's bigotry smacks of political correctness.

Calling religious bigotry, religious bigotry, has nothing to do with politics. It simply is what it is.

Melody said:
So, feel free to label me as a bigot.

I'm not labeling you as anything. That's not my place nor desire. I'm merely pointing out that some Christians are religious bigots, and that their bigotry justifiably offends other people.

Green Gaia · Jul 4, 2006

I've just realized that true acceptance and tolerance of all religions is not possible when even one religion feels itself morally superior over others and is the only true religion.

For someone who strives for world peace, liberty, justice, acceptance and compassion and believes (or believed) this could happen through religions being respectful and accepting of one another, this is quite disillusioning....

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