Dislike and distrust of atheists?

1robin said:

IMO Trump will be a disaster, his only merit is that he wasn't as sadistic and evil as the Clintons are.

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That anti Clinton propaganda is all Fake News.

meghanwaterlillies said:

Well the other said we are animals. I said no. I didn't say no there. So why cant I disagree with this we are not animals.
So I could walk around saying God all day and gods all the time and they would likely praise me. But if I say we are not animals, it's somehow bad. Everyone wants to argue.

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If you say we're not animals you're egregiously ill informed, like someone believing in a flat Earth or evil spirits causing disease. That's why people want to argue. They can't imagine where you would come up with such a bizarre idea.

Valjean said:

That anti Clinton propaganda is all Fake News.
If you say we're not animals you're egregiously ill informed, like someone believing in a flat Earth or evil spirits causing disease. That's why people want to argue. They can't imagine where you would come up with such a bizarre idea.

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You just confirmed my point.

Valjean said:

That anti Clinton propaganda is all Fake News.
If you say we're not animals you're egregiously ill informed, like someone believing in a flat Earth or evil spirits causing disease. That's why people want to argue. They can't imagine where you would come up with such a bizarre idea.

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Or not..

shmogie said:

Yes, I understand. You don't "drop" the knowledge, you keep it in it's proper place.

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Yes, I like that.

Cobol said:

“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789

“Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792

“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition… In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793


“Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
~Founding Father John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88)

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802

“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814

“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799
“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813

“Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual.

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,

“The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State.”
~Founding Father James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, “Essays In Addition to America’s Real Religion”

“When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it’s a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
~Founding Father Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

“I never liked the Hierarchy of the Church — an equality in the teacher of Religion, and a dependence on the people, are republican sentiments — but if the Clergy combine, they will have their influence on Government”
~Founding Father Rufus King, Rufus King: American Federalist, pp. 56-57

“No religious doctrine shall be established by law.”
~Founding Father Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731

“Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.”
~Founding Father Roger Sherman, Congress, August 19, 1789

“The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion.”
~Founding Father Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787

These are hardly the words of men who allegedly believed that America should be a Christian nation.

There is nothing in the design of the United States Supreme Court building that would indicate that the Congress, architect or designers had any special regard for the Ten Commandments.

Those large statues beside the steps do not represent any religious figures or concepts.

Did you know that if the Ten Commandments were the basis of law, there would be no “equal justice” for nonbelievers or followers of other religions? Did you know that Robert Ingersoll Aitken, the sculptor (A famous agnostic), put himself into the Western Pediment on the front door of the supreme court?

The bronze doors at the front of the building, leading into the courtroom, contain no references to religion. Moses is walking behind (not leading) Menes and Hammurabi in the south frieze. Menes was an Egyptian pharaoh and Hammurabi was a Babylonian king, both of whom worshiped a sun god.

Did you know that the designer of that eastern pediment gave secular reasons for that art? Sculptor Herman A. MacNeil wrote: "Law as an element of civilization was normally and naturally derived or inherited in this country from former civilizations. The 'Eastern Pediment' of the Supreme Court Building suggests therefore the treatment of such fundamental laws and precepts as are derived from the East." Neither Congress nor the sculptor claimed that American law is based on Confucius, Solon, or Moses.

The pyramid on the 1$ is a throwback to ancient Egypt, but is in many ways a much tamer version of the seal that Franklin and Jefferson envisioned.

Many subscribe to the idea that our currency is originally Masonic, there’s a lot to work with. Many of the people involved in the multi-step design for the seal are known Masons. Almost everyone concedes that Franklin Roosevelt and Henry Wallace were Freemasons.

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All very interesting , and you must have a point. I just don't see it. You correctly quoted the prohibition on the government of establishing a religion, but do you know what it means ? Previous to our Republic, most country's had a state religion intertwined with the government. This is simply stating that in the USA there will be no state religion, and any law attempting to establish one is prohibited. t also says that the government cannot curtail the free exercise of religion, which it does every day. Prohibiting children from praying in school if they choose is prohibiting their right to freely exercise their religion, prohibiting a prayer at the beginning of a high school football game is denying the right of free exercise of religion. Compelling a Jewish kid to take part in saturday activities is denying him or her the free exercise of religion. I could go on with a whole lot more, but you get the idea, it is usually Christians who are denied their right, most of the others skate, FREE EXERCISE OF RELIGION means exactly that. Now, before you have apoplexy, I know the establishment clause has been totally rewritten to mean, separation of church and state at all times in every place for every person, lest allowing those kids to pray is establishing a religion. That idea, postulated up by some judges is nonsense. There is no establishment of a state religion when there is no declaration or law that a state religion exists. If a Sikh wants to, as part of his free exercise of religion, recite prayers quietly before going to class, the government hasn't established Sikhism as a religion, he is simply exercising his guaranteed right to the free exercise of religion.

meghanwaterlillies said:

what if I said no.

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Then you are simply an animal in denial.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

How many are authentic?

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The link I gave indicates which links have not yet been authenticated. Apparently you couldn't be bothered to read it. Where did the other 60% of my post go? It is getting real hard to justify discussing anything with you.

American History Quotes About God and the Bible
“Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance.” Psalm 33:12

The USA is a covenant Christian nation. We are one nation under God. The Christian majority is the largest group in America (~75%, 2012 polling). Christians uniting in Christ is our nation’s source of unity. Below are some of the thousands of quotes endorsing God in government by our Founding Fathers and others in American history. American children have prayed and read the Holy Bible in schools for 355 years (1607 – 1962), Congress recommended Bibles for America and funded Christian missionaries, the third verse of our national anthem says, “And this be our motto, ‘In God is our trust”.

Join Christians across the USA and declare: The Lord is the God of the USA and we are His people.
George Washington – First President of the United States of America
“It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”
– George Washington
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.”
– George Washington
We beseech [God] to pardon our national and other transgressions…
- George Washington, Thanksgiving Proclamation 1789
True religion affords to government its surest support.
– George Washington
It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.
– George Washington (this quote is unconfirmed)
Samuel Adams – Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I … [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.
– Samuel Adams
We have this day [Fourth of July] restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come.
– Samuel Adams
The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe (Proverbs 18:10). Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.
– Samuel Adams
The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.
– Samuel Adams
United States Congressional Endorsement of the Bible and God
Congress printed a Bible for America and said:
“The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”
– United States Congress 1782
Congress passed this resolution:
“The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”
– United States Congress 1782
By Law the United States Congress adds to US coinage:
“In God We Trust”
– United States Congress 1864
John Adams –President of the United States of America, First Vice President, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Bill of Rights, and Signer of First Ammendment
The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.
– John Adams
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
– John Adams
The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.
– John Adams
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
– John Adams
I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.
– John Adams
The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.
– John Adams
[The Fourth of July] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.
– John Adams
As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him.
– John Adams
We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.
– John Adams and John Hancock (uncomfirmed quote)
Abigail Adams – Wife of John Adams
“The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation.”
– Abigail Adams
Patrick Henry – Early America Leader
There is a book [the Bible] worth all the other books ever printed.
– Patrick Henry
It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
– Patrick Henry (uncomfirmed quote)
John Jay – First Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
– John Jay
The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts.
– John Jay
John Hancock – Signer of the Declaration of Independence
…that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ and that the whole Earth may be filled with his glory.
– John Hancock, as Governor of Massachusetts 1791
We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.
– John Adams and John Hancock (uncomformed quote)
Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence
“The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”
– Benjamin Rush
Let the children…be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education.
– Benjamin Rush
Christianity is the only true and perfect religion…
– Benjamin Rush
John Witherspoon – Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress
“He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country.”
– John Witherspoon
John Dickinson – Signer Constitution of the USA, Continental Congress
“The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.”
– John Dickinson
Benjamin Franklin
“Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Jeferson – President
God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial
The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial
Joseph Story – Supreme Court Justice
“I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
– Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Harvard Speech, 1829
United States of America National Anthem – Francis Scott Key
“And this be our motto, ‘In God is our trust'”
– USA National Anthem, Third Verse
USA Constitution – First Ammendment
“Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth…”
– US Constitution, Before signature text declaring our Christian Nation
Note: “Year of our Lord” means Jesus Christ is Lord of the USA. (Founding fathers didn’t use year of the Lord)
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [Christian denomination], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
– US Constitution, First Ammendment (Christian religious freedom brackets added)
Andrew Jackson – President of the United States of America
“[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.”
– Andrew Jackson
Abraham Lincoln – President of the United States of America
In regards to this great Book [the Bible], I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it.
– Abraham Lincoln
I am busily engaged in study of the Bible.
– Abraham Lincoln
This nation under God
– Abraham Lincoln, Gettysberg Address and inscribed on Lincoln Memorial
And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God … and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.
– Abraham Lincoln
Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh. (Matthew 18:7)
– Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.
– Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial
Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation…
– Abraham Lincoln
“Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust in the best way all our present difficulties.”
– Abraham Lincoln, President, March 4, 1861 inaugural address

Continued below:

United States Supreme Court


“This is a Christian nation”
– United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892


“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian…This is a Christian nation”
– United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892


Washington Monument


Holiness to the Lord (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20)
– Washington Monument


Search the Scriptures (John 5:39)
– Washington Monument


The memory of the just is blessed (Proverbs 10:7)
– Washington Monument


May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence
– Washington Monument


In God We Trust
– Washington Monument


“Praise be to God” (engraved on the monument’s capstone in Latin as “Laus Deo”)
– Washington Monument


James Madison – A Primary Author of the Constitution of the United States of America


“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”
– James Madison


“Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government”
– James Madison


“Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.”
– James Madison


Northwest Ordinance – July 13, 1787


Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.
– Northwest Ordinance, Article 3


Original Harvard University Student Handbook 1636


Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well: the main end of his life and studies is “to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life” (John 17.3), and therefore to lay Christ in the bottom, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of Him (Prov. 2.3).
– Original Harvard University Student Handbook


William McGuffy – author of McGuffy Reader, which was used for over 100 years in American schools as the primary textbook


The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our nation, on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free Institutions. From no source has this author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible, I make no apology.
– William McGuffy, author of McGuffy Reader


Congress – First Prayer in Congress


O LORD, OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, high and mighty King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, who dost from Thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth, and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the kingdoms, empires and governments; look down in mercy we beseech Thee, on these American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor, and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring henceforth to be dependent only on Thee; to Thee they have appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support which Thou alone canst give; take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious design of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their cause; and if they persist in their sanguinary purpose, O let the voice of Thy own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle! Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the counsels of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation, that the scene of blood may be speedily closed, that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety prevail and flourish among Thy people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them, and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world, and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Savior. Amen.


– First Prayer in Congress September 7, 1774, Jacob Duche, Carpenters Hall, Philadelphia


Calvin Coolidge– President of the United States of America


“The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.”
– Calvin Coolidge


Harry S. Truman – President of the United States of America


“The fundamental basis of this Nation’s law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul.”
– Harry S. Truman


“This Nation was established by men who believed in God. … You will see the evidence of this deep religious faith on every hand.’
– Harry S. Truman


Dwight D. Eisenhower – President of the United States of America


“Without God there could be no American form of government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first, the most basic, expression of Americanism. Thus, the founding fathers of America saw it, and thus with God’s help, it will continue to be.”
– Dwight D. Eisenhower


“I believe that the next half century will determine if we will advance the cause of Christian civilization or revert to the horrors of brutal paganism.”
– Theodore Roosevelt, President


“This is a Christian nation.”
– Harry Truman, President


“[The United States is] founded on the principles of Christianity”
– Franklin D. Roosevelt, President


Do you think a country that has been composed of between 70% and 90%, would lack a mountain of quotes like those.


Ronald Reagan – President of the United States of America


Of the many influences that have shaped the United States into a distinctive nation and people, none may be said to be more fundamental and enduring than the Bible.
– Ronald Reagan


Deep religious beliefs stemming from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible inspired many of the early settlers of our country, providing them with the strength, character, convictions, and faith necessary to withstand great hardship and danger in this new and rugged land. These shared beliefs helped forge a sense of common purpose among the widely dispersed colonies — a sense of community which laid the foundation for the spirit of nationhood that was to develop in later decades.
– Ronald Reagan


The Bible and its teachings helped form the basis for the Founding Fathers’ abiding belief in the inalienable rights of the individual, rights which they found implicit in the Bible’s teachings of the inherent worth and dignity of each individual. This same sense of man patterned the convictions of those who framed the English system of law inherited by our own Nation, as well as the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
– Ronald Reagan


For centuries the Bible’s emphasis on compassion and love for our neighbor has inspired institutional and governmental expressions of benevolent outreach such as private charity, the establishment of schools and hospitals, and the abolition of slavery.
– Ronald Reagan


“The Congress of the United States, in recognition of the unique contribution of the Bible in shaping the history and character of this Nation, and so many of its citizens, has by Senate Joint Resolution 165 authorized and requested the President to designate the year 1983 as the ‘Year of the Bible.'”‘
– Ronald Reagan


Inside the Bible’s pages lie the answers to all the problems that mankind has ever known. I hope Americans will read and study the Bible.
– Ronald Reagan

US History Quotes About God and the Bible

Do you actually believe that a nation composed of between 70% - 90% Christians will not produce a mountain of quotes similar to those above?

Cobol said:

“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789

“Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792

“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition… In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793


“Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
~Founding Father John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88)

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802

“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814

“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799
“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813

“Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual.

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,

“The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State.”
~Founding Father James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, “Essays In Addition to America’s Real Religion”

“When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it’s a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
~Founding Father Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

“I never liked the Hierarchy of the Church — an equality in the teacher of Religion, and a dependence on the people, are republican sentiments — but if the Clergy combine, they will have their influence on Government”
~Founding Father Rufus King, Rufus King: American Federalist, pp. 56-57

“No religious doctrine shall be established by law.”
~Founding Father Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731

“Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.”
~Founding Father Roger Sherman, Congress, August 19, 1789

“The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion.”
~Founding Father Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787

These are hardly the words of men who allegedly believed that America should be a Christian nation.

There is nothing in the design of the United States Supreme Court building that would indicate that the Congress, architect or designers had any special regard for the Ten Commandments.

Those large statues beside the steps do not represent any religious figures or concepts.

Did you know that if the Ten Commandments were the basis of law, there would be no “equal justice” for nonbelievers or followers of other religions? Did you know that Robert Ingersoll Aitken, the sculptor (A famous agnostic), put himself into the Western Pediment on the front door of the supreme court?

The bronze doors at the front of the building, leading into the courtroom, contain no references to religion. Moses is walking behind (not leading) Menes and Hammurabi in the south frieze. Menes was an Egyptian pharaoh and Hammurabi was a Babylonian king, both of whom worshiped a sun god.

Did you know that the designer of that eastern pediment gave secular reasons for that art? Sculptor Herman A. MacNeil wrote: "Law as an element of civilization was normally and naturally derived or inherited in this country from former civilizations. The 'Eastern Pediment' of the Supreme Court Building suggests therefore the treatment of such fundamental laws and precepts as are derived from the East." Neither Congress nor the sculptor claimed that American law is based on Confucius, Solon, or Moses.

The pyramid on the 1$ is a throwback to ancient Egypt, but is in many ways a much tamer version of the seal that Franklin and Jefferson envisioned.

Many subscribe to the idea that our currency is originally Masonic, there’s a lot to work with. Many of the people involved in the multi-step design for the seal are known Masons. Almost everyone concedes that Franklin Roosevelt and Henry Wallace were Freemasons.

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Was this intended for me?

Valjean said:

That anti Clinton propaganda is all Fake News.

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What I am afraid you meant is so abhorrent that I need to make sure I understand you correctly.

Are you saying that if we start tracking the Clintons from their college days to the present day. Every negative testimony (including their own secret service, and police under oath) and every piece of evidence showing the Clintons to be tyrannical, sadistic, and evil is false? It's all a 30 - 40 year old conspiracy?

1robin said:

What I am afraid you meant is so abhorrent that I need to make sure I understand you correctly.

Are you saying that if we start tracking the Clintons from their college days to the present day. Every negative testimony (including their own secret service, and police under oath) and every piece of evidence showing the Clintons to be tyrannical, sadistic, and evil is false? It's all a 30 - 40 year old conspiracy?

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Yes, pretty much.
They've been under attack for decades, from Whitewater to the latest Russian stuff. They've been constantly under investigation for one scandal or other since their 1st day in office. They all turn out to be false or overblown, (or irrelevant, in the case of Lewinsky), but the investigation results, costing taxpayers tens of millions of dollars, don't make front page news. The public, already following the next round of scandals, just assume that with so much smoke there must have been a fire, somewhere.
Please cite some evidence that the Clintons are tyrannical, sadistic or evil (Alex Jones doesn't count).
Stop Parroting GOP Lies That Hillary Clinton Is Dishonest
Political DataViz: Who Lies More – A Comparison (Robert Mann) – UPDATED

Valjean said:

Yes, pretty much.
They've been under attack for decades, from Whitewater to the latest Russian stuff. They've been constantly under investigation for one scandal or other since their 1st day in office. They all turn out to be false or overblown, (or irrelevant, in the case of Lewinsky), but the investigation results, costing taxpayers tens of millions of dollars, don't make front page news. The public, already following the next round of scandals, just assume that with so much smoke there must have been a fire, somewhere.
Please cite some evidence that the Clintons are tyrannical, sadistic or evil (Alex Jones doesn't count).
Stop Parroting GOP Lies That Hillary Clinton Is Dishonest
Political DataViz: Who Lies More – A Comparison (Robert Mann) – UPDATED

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I have not seen a politician I have trusted since Lincoln (except for Regan and he had his bad moments), I think liberals are by far the worst of the whole bunch, but I seldom throw out the term absolute and pure evil when describing the Clintons. I am left with a tough choice, either you are so ignorant that it would take me forever to bring you up to speed concerning their history, or your so biased that you do not care about their history.

Regardless, if we are going to do this at all we will have to start with Bill's draft dodging and Hillarie's training as an Alinski (ite).

Bill got a deferment by promising to serve in the R.O.T.C., he received it, but never fulfilled his part of the bargain. He even protested the US during his college years.
THE 1992 CAMPAIGN; A Letter by Clinton on His Draft Deferment: 'A War I Opposed and Despised'

Hillary (and even Obama to some extant) have dedicated themselves to an ideal many horrific world views, among the worst was Saul Alinsky.
Hillary Rodham senior thesis - Wikipedia
The Hillary Letters

Now, as in every other case where a persons position is based on their preference and emotions rather than evidence and reason, the only recourse you have is to claim every source I use is biased. Well good luck, I have about 100 million that you will have to prove are biased for that tactic to work.

BTW the tactic illustrated by the title of the last link you gave is invalid. You cannot defend your client by pointing out (whether true or not) that someone else is worse.

1robin said:

I have not seen a politician I have trusted since Lincoln (except for Regan and he had his bad moments), I think liberals are by far the worst of the whole bunch, but I seldom throw out the term absolute and pure evil when describing the Clintons. I am left with a tough choice, either you are so ignorant that it would take me forever to bring you up to speed concerning their history, or your so biased that you do not care about their history.

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I still don't see what your objection is to liberals. We're the idealists responsible for social and economic progress, human rights, &c.
Reagan? The Reagan who had to raise taxes 11 times, after a disastrous tax cut in his first year? The Reagan who tripled the national debt and nearly tripled the federal budget? Who raised unemployment to nearly 11%, gave amnesty to ~3 million undocumented immigrants, sold weapons illegally to Iran, who organized and funded a fascist war in Nicaragua, vetoed the anti-apartheid act, organized trained and funded the Taliban, who cancelled Carter's energy programs, that would have had us energy independent decades ago? The Reagan who's supply side, trickle down economics gave us thirty years of economic stagnation and increasing income income inequality?
I think you're the one who's been duped, and needs to bone up on your history.

Regardless, if we are going to do this at all we will have to start with Bill's draft dodging and Hillarie's training as an Alinski (ite).

Bill got a deferment by promising to serve in the R.O.T.C., he received it, but never fulfilled his part of the bargain. He even protested the US during his college years.
THE 1992 CAMPAIGN; A Letter by Clinton on His Draft Deferment: 'A War I Opposed and Despised'

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But isn't opposing an illegal war a good thing? I agree he did some shameful pussyfooting when the honorable thing would have been simply to denounce the whole military establishment, refuse induction, and let the political chips fall where they may. Willing spirit, maybe, but flesh is weak.
Alinski? What's your beef with him? Wasn't he a great American, who worked all his life for justice and fairness? Do you object to Martin Luther King as well?

Hillary (and even Obama to some extant) have dedicated themselves to an ideal many horrific world views, among the worst was Saul Alinsky.
Hillary Rodham senior thesis - Wikipedia
The Hillary Letters

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Palpable poppycock. Right wing propaganda. You've been watching too much Fox news and Info Wars.
Would that the Clintons had been 'Alinskyites'.

Now, as in every other case where a persons position is based on their preference and emotions rather than evidence and reason, the only recourse you have is to claim every source I use is biased. Well good luck, I have about 100 million that you will have to prove are biased for that tactic to work.

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I think you're projecting.

BTW the tactic illustrated by the title of the last link you gave is invalid. You cannot defend your client by pointing out (whether true or not) that someone else is worse.

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LOL -- you think I'm trying to tu quoque you?

Valjean said:

I still don't see what your objection is to liberals. We're the idealists responsible for social and economic progress, human rights, &c.
Reagan? The Reagan who had to raise taxes 11 times, after a disastrous tax cut in his first year? The Reagan who tripled the national debt and nearly tripled the federal budget? Who raised unemployment to nearly 11%, gave amnesty to ~3 million undocumented immigrants, sold weapons illegally to Iran, who organized and funded a fascist war in Nicaragua, vetoed the anti-apartheid act, organized trained and funded the Taliban, who cancelled Carter's energy programs, that would have had us energy independent decades ago? The Reagan who's supply side, trickle down economics gave us thirty years of economic stagnation and increasing income income inequality?
I think you're the one who's been duped, and needs to bone up on your history.

But isn't opposing an illegal war a good thing? I agree he did some shameful pussyfooting when the honorable thing would have been simply to denounce the whole military establishment, refuse induction, and let the political chips fall where they may. Willing spirit, maybe, but flesh is weak.
Alinski? What's your beef with him? Wasn't he a great American, who worked all his life for justice and fairness? Do you object to Martin Luther King as well?
Palpable poppycock. Right wing propaganda. You've been watching too much Fox news and Info Wars.
Would that the Clintons had been 'Alinskyites'.

I think you're projecting.

LOL -- you think I'm trying to tu quoque you?

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You cannot defend Clinton by attacking Reagan or any other conservative politician. You can't make Hitler good by claiming Stalin was worse. Using that tactic is a very good indicator that you realize you cannot defend Clinton on her own merits. This is philosophy 101 stuff.

Regardless,

1. The context of your statement that I responded to was either the Clintons or specifically Hillary. That is what (or whom) we are discussing.
2. If we are going to discuss them then the best place to start is at the beginning.
3. I do not believe the war in Vietnam was illegal. However even if it was then since Kennedy started our involvement that would make him a criminal. However the draft was legal.
4. I served in the military, but I have no problem with people who do not want to kill their fellow man. However do so honorably, enter as a conscientious objector. Don't get your liberal buddies to recommend you for the R.O.T.C. then not even bother to show up.
5. However that is not the extent of what he did, he actually protested against the US in all manner of contexts. Despite our many faults this country is the mightiest, most successful, and most benevolent in human history. It does not deserve hypocritical protests by a person who committed adultery in the oval office.
6. I am more than capable of defending Reagan and admitting where he failed, but his merits have nothing to do with the Clintons.
7. As for Alinsky he was a self described radical and stated in his book Satan was the original archetype of a radical.

I have little time at the moment so I will stop here. You need to actually defend Hillary instead of trying to indict others and if you really wish to tackle that unenviable task then we must start at the beginning. Good luck.

1robin said:

Was this intended for me?

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The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United states constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of rights.

In their eagerness to have the Founders on “their side,” modern Christians try to promote the idea that America is meant to be a Christian nation. But the Founding Fathers — those men who formed and nurtured this nation — were not all Christian. Most were free-thinkers, agnostics and Deists. No matter what their religious leanings, however, they fought for a secular state. They saw how Europe had fared with theocracies and state-sponsored religion and wanted none of it here.

The view that America is a Christian nation is nothing more than fantasy and revisionist history on the part of one religion. This religion has forced itself onto the state: from coinage to the Pledge of Allegiance, we see its fingerprints. This religion is shown deference in ways other religions have to fight for. But they still try to rewrite history to claim the Founding Fathers for their own religion.

Here are more of the many quotes from the Founders with regards to the separation of church and state.

Thomas Paine – Like most of the Founders, he was a Deist who rejected orthodox Christianity. He said, instead, that his religion was “to do good.”

“As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith. ” ~~ Common Sense, 1776.
“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”

Thomas Jefferson – Jefferson was a Deist, though he did have respect for Jesus as a teacher of moral truths. He did not attend church and rejected the Bible’s teachings. Many of his contemporary Christians dismissed Jefferson as a heretic.

“[E]very one must act according to the dictates of his own reason, and mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the U.S. and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents.” ~~ Letter to Rev. Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808
“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” ~~ Notes on the State of Virginia , 1781 – 1785

John Adams – Adams was a Trinitarian Unitarian. He did not attend other churches and considered himself outside of orthodox religion.

The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. ~~ “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America,” 1787-88

George Washington – He occasionally attended churches as an adult, including the Episcopalian/Anglican church, a Roman Catholic church, and at least one Quaker meeting. Washington never espoused a formal religious affiliation as an adult, considering himself a Deist. I've quoted him in a previous post.

Benjamin Franklin – Baptized and raised as an Episcopalian, he became a Deist as an adult. He seldom attended church. He professed belief in a “Creator” but not in the divinity of Jesus.

“I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it.” ~~Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion, 1728

James Madison – A Deist, Madison sometimes attended an Episcopalian/Anglican church. He strongly opposed efforts by church leaders to make the new nation a theocracy. Instead, he worked with Baptists to ensure religious liberty for all and to maintain the separation of church and state.

“The members of a Govt as such can in no sense, be regarded as possessing an advisory trust from their Constituents in their religious capacities. They cannot form an ecclesiastical Assembly, Convocation, Council, or Synod, and as such issue decrees or injunctions addressed to the faith or the Consciences of the people. In their individual capacities, as distinct from their official station, they might unite in recommendations of any sort whatever, in the same manner as any other individuals might do. But then their recommendations ought to express the true character from which they emanate.” ~~ Notes on Government Issued Religious Proclamations
“[T]he number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood, & the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State.” ~~ -Letter to Robert Walsh, March 2, 1819
“The civil government … functions with complete success … by the total separation of the Church from the State.”
~ Writings, 1819
“Because the Bill [to institute an assessment to fund teachers of Christianity] implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious Truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy. The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: the second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation.” ~~ Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, 1785

Alexander Hamilton – He was not a church member, however he was known to exploit Christianity for political purposes.

“n politics as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. Heresies in either can rarely be cured by persecution.”

“The [president] has no particle of spiritual jurisdiction. . . .”

It is absolutely true that the government of the United States is not and never was in any sense Christian. Few propose for it to become Christian, if for no other reason, that their particular denomination might not be the "approved one". This is no different than it was at the time of the founding. No one wants to be told what religion to belong to. Many came to America to get away from that.

1robin said:

You cannot defend Clinton by attacking Reagan or any other conservative politician. You can't make Hitler good by claiming Stalin was worse. Using that tactic is a very good indicator that you realize you cannot defend Clinton on her own merits. This is philosophy 101 stuff.

Regardless,

1. The context of your statement that I responded to was either the Clintons or specifically Hillary. That is what (or whom) we are discussing.
2. If we are going to discuss them then the best place to start is at the beginning.
3. I do not believe the war in Vietnam was illegal. However even if it was then since Kennedy started our involvement that would make him a criminal. However the draft was legal.
4. I served in the military, but I have no problem with people who do not want to kill their fellow man. However do so honorably, enter as a conscientious objector. Don't get your liberal buddies to recommend you for the R.O.T.C. then not even bother to show up.
5. However that is not the extent of what he did, he actually protested against the US in all manner of contexts. Despite our many faults this country is the mightiest, most successful, and most benevolent in human history. It does not deserve hypocritical protests by a person who committed adultery in the oval office.
6. I am more than capable of defending Reagan and admitting where he failed, but his merits have nothing to do with the Clintons.
7. As for Alinsky he was a self described radical and stated in his book Satan was the original archetype of a radical.

I have little time at the moment so I will stop here. You need to actually defend Hillary instead of trying to indict others and if you really wish to tackle that unenviable task then we must start at the beginning. Good luck.

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Objection to liberals- They are totally convinced their philosophy is right, so the end justifies the means. They love the concept of the re distribution of wealth, taking it from the people who have it, and giving it to those who do not, many of whom have made no effort to acquire any for themselves (theft). They think of the US Constitution which was written to stand exactly as written, as a gumby document that can be twisted and bent to support their principles. They defy the will of the people on any number of issues by using implanted fellow travelers in the courts to discard the will of the the people. They demand special rights for selected groups of people, over those granted to all people in the Constitution. They are happy to allow the murder of an innocent unborn human, but demand that guilty killers not be executed for their crimes. Because the end justifies the means, they give themselves permission to lie, to cheat, to misrepresent in bring they goals to fruition. They believe in the half who support the other half being continually drained of resources by increased taxation, so they can continue to give and give to the idle half in ways never intended , and never encoded in the Constitution. Just a few

Augustus said:

Happiness is a very vague concept though.

Human freedom seems not to be a key component of it when compared to a sense of community and a purpose in life.

What appeals most to modern Humanists may not reflect all societies and cultures, so in these the greatest good would be met by adopting values perhaps inimical to Humanism.

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Humanism is for people who want it. It doesn't define happiness. It recognizes that most people want safe, long, comfortable, interesting lives and aims to provide the milieu to pursue happiness.

Augustus said:

Aren't all ethics 'rational' in this regard though. They are based on reasoning regarding the values you wish to create or protect. Values don't come out of a bottle, only as a product of thought and reasoning whether the goal is consequences or rights/duties.

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Rational ethics is a process that combines reason and empathy to arrive through continual revision where helpful or necessary at set of societal standards that facilitate a specific kind of free society.

Augustus said:

The immorality of slavery was not consequentialist though, but based on absolute rights regardless of consequences. And these rights (although primitive) were both unprecedented in the 4th C (unless you can find one) and directly based on the logical implications of a particular aspect of scripture. Are you arguing that the scripture was incidental to the theology or that reasoning based on scripture is not Christian?.

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Neither. A prohibition on slavery cannot be found in the scripture.

Augustus said:

You, like me, don't believe Christianity was Divinely inspired. How did it come to be? Where do you see it's intellectual roots? I see it as a Hellenised form of Judaism, so from the outset it contained aspects of Greek philosophy (see for example Philo's Logos as Divine Mediator). Christian theology has never existed without Greek influence, this is part of the essence of its tradition (and imo one aspect which led it to develop in the way that it actually did)..

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I don't know much about that history. It isn't interesting or relevant to me.

Augustus said:

What you seem to be saying is that as soon as the canon became settled, Christianity became a literalist reading of scripture only. The traditions that led to its creation suddenly became alien to it, even though they were part of a continuous and unbroken process. Your Christianity is something that has never existed, just a book frozen in time..

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I don't think so, and I have explained that matter a few times. It seems to be a point we can't get past.

Augustus said:

Do you believe that Humanism produces the greatest good in all societies?

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I believe that humanism is the optimal ideology with the most realistic worldview, and the values that facilitate open societies that facilitate the maximal opportunity to pursue happiness your way. That is the intention of humanist societies such as most Western societies - the places with the highest happiness index scores. From The World Happiness Index 2016 Just Ranked the Happiest Countries on Earth :

"As mentioned, Denmark leads the pack with Switzerland (last year’s winner), Iceland, Norway, Finland, Canada, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Australia, and Sweden rounding out the top 10."

What do these nations have in common that Saudi Arabia, the Sudan, and Afghanistan lack?

Where is the problem here? What would you substitute for humanist societies? Communist? Theocratic?

Augustus said:

Where did the idea that we had certain rights as a virtue of our humanity come from though? If we keep taking one step back then another where do these ideas come from? Reason and empathy lead nowhere without a framework of values and concepts to work with. Then where do these values come from?

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Are you going to suggest the Bible? Odd that we had to wait for the Enlightenment to see them, and then, with no help from the church.

Augustus said:

Your reasoning is entirely circular: modern Humanism believes X so X comes from (proto)humanism, humanism is a product of itself rather than an evolutionary hybrid comprising numerous traditions that later became Humanism (but can't be called Humanist at that time).

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Your comments bring this one to mind:

"When the philosopher's argument becomes tedious, complicated, and opaque, it is usually a sign that he is attempting to prove as true to the intellect what is plainly false to common sense・- Edward Abbey

The proof is in the pudding. Look at the results of various worldviews in this area and then pick a type of world you'd like to live in. You might care to use the happiness index as a guide.

I'll bet that you choose one with a humanistic model.

Cobol said:

“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789

“Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792

“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition… In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”
~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793


“Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
~Founding Father John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88)

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802

“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814

“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799
“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813

“Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual.

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,

“The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State.”
~Founding Father James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, “Essays In Addition to America’s Real Religion”

“When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it’s a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
~Founding Father Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

“I never liked the Hierarchy of the Church — an equality in the teacher of Religion, and a dependence on the people, are republican sentiments — but if the Clergy combine, they will have their influence on Government”
~Founding Father Rufus King, Rufus King: American Federalist, pp. 56-57

“No religious doctrine shall be established by law.”
~Founding Father Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731

“Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.”
~Founding Father Roger Sherman, Congress, August 19, 1789

“The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion.”
~Founding Father Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787

These are hardly the words of men who allegedly believed that America should be a Christian nation.

There is nothing in the design of the United States Supreme Court building that would indicate that the Congress, architect or designers had any special regard for the Ten Commandments.

Those large statues beside the steps do not represent any religious figures or concepts.

Did you know that if the Ten Commandments were the basis of law, there would be no “equal justice” for nonbelievers or followers of other religions? Did you know that Robert Ingersoll Aitken, the sculptor (A famous agnostic), put himself into the Western Pediment on the front door of the supreme court?

The bronze doors at the front of the building, leading into the courtroom, contain no references to religion. Moses is walking behind (not leading) Menes and Hammurabi in the south frieze. Menes was an Egyptian pharaoh and Hammurabi was a Babylonian king, both of whom worshiped a sun god.

Did you know that the designer of that eastern pediment gave secular reasons for that art? Sculptor Herman A. MacNeil wrote: "Law as an element of civilization was normally and naturally derived or inherited in this country from former civilizations. The 'Eastern Pediment' of the Supreme Court Building suggests therefore the treatment of such fundamental laws and precepts as are derived from the East." Neither Congress nor the sculptor claimed that American law is based on Confucius, Solon, or Moses.

The pyramid on the 1$ is a throwback to ancient Egypt, but is in many ways a much tamer version of the seal that Franklin and Jefferson envisioned.

Many subscribe to the idea that our currency is originally Masonic, there’s a lot to work with. Many of the people involved in the multi-step design for the seal are known Masons. Almost everyone concedes that Franklin Roosevelt and Henry Wallace were Freemasons.

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Nice post. This and the very recent one that is similar were good collections of these kinds of comments.

shmogie said:

Objection to liberals- They are totally convinced their philosophy is right, so the end justifies the means. They love the concept of the re distribution of wealth, taking it from the people who have it, and giving it to those who do not, many of whom have made no effort to acquire any for themselves (theft). They think of the US Constitution which was written to stand exactly as written, as a gumby document that can be twisted and bent to support their principles. They defy the will of the people on any number of issues by using implanted fellow travelers in the courts to discard the will of the the people. They demand special rights for selected groups of people, over those granted to all people in the Constitution. They are happy to allow the murder of an innocent unborn human, but demand that guilty killers not be executed for their crimes. Because the end justifies the means, they give themselves permission to lie, to cheat, to misrepresent in bring they goals to fruition. They believe in the half who support the other half being continually drained of resources by increased taxation, so they can continue to give and give to the idle half in ways never intended , and never encoded in the Constitution. Just a few

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I’m so tired of hearing this absurd claim by conservatives that they are the “party for Constitutional values.”

Conservatives don’t understand that simply wanting something to be true doesn’t mean that it is. You are not the party of Constitutional values. Not even close. Just because you put a “God Bless America” bumper sticker on your vehicle and fly an American flag at your home doesn’t make you a patriot, and it damn sure doesn’t make you an advocate for our Constitution.

I read almost daily about some right-wing agenda that seeks to violate our Constitution. It’s pretty amazing how many conservatives, and their voters, support the stance to ignore and dismiss federal laws if they disagree with them.

What about Donald Trump’s ethical conflicts and violating the emoluments clause. Isn’t the emoluments provision of the constitution the law of the land?

Abortion? Well, we disagree with it, so we can try to violate the Constitutionally protected right a woman has over her own body.

The Affordable Care Act? Well, we disagree with it, so it’s okay to try and ignore that Constitutionally upheld law.

Religion in public school? Well, we think our country was founded on Christianity (even though the word Christianity doesn’t appear even once in our Constitution), so it’s okay to ignore the First Amendment and force religion (as long as it’s the Christian religion) into our public schools. Conservatives don’t like that minorities often don’t vote for their party, so it’s acceptable to try and change our Fourteenth Amendment and the Constitutional definition of what constitutes an American citizen.

Certain demographics don’t vote for us, so let’s find ways to make it harder for them to vote. Similar to poll taxes or tests once used to discourage certain voters from voting.

When they call themselves the “party of Constitutional values,” they simply have got to be joking.

The only amendment they really defend without question is our Second Amendment—and even then they ignore the entire first half of it and just focus on the last part.

Conservatives are for their interpretation of what they want the Constitution to be, not what it actually is. Conservatives have no problem ignoring our Constitution, or violating American rights, on issues of which they disagree.

It’s just laughable that the party which openly tries to defy Constitutionally protected rights whenever they disagree with them, flies this false banner of the party for “Constitutional values.”

The worst part is, deep down they really think “Constitutional values” means a nation ruled by theocracy (a theocracy built on their perversion of Christianity), denying women’s rights, opposing gay rights, changing the definition of what it is to be an American citizen. Sadly, they’re just becoming more and more extreme on these issues, and that’s a slap to the face of our Constitution and our country as a whole.