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Which is more meaningful?

Quantum Ape

Quantum Ape

New Member
I am a happy father of two young boys.. there always getting into something. My oldest was cleaning his room on his own the other day so I asked.. "what are you doing, buddy?"

He replied he was cleaning because he knew his mother and I wanted it done.. the week before he got candy because he cleaned his room so well on his own.

So, my 4 year old was doing something that he didn't want to do just because he knew we expected it and that he was going to be rewarded in the end.

I was proud of him regardless... but that being said it would have meant more if he was cleaning his room simply because he wanted to. Just because he wanted it clean with no expectations of a reward.

So, my little story aside.. which seems more heartfelt and pure?

1). Living a good honest life because someone told you that you should and if you don't you will be punished in the end.. but if you do you'll get a treat..

Or

2). Living a good honest life simply because you want to. Just living love with no expectations of reward.

The answer to me seems clear...
 
Terese

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Why is this in the Evolution vs Creationism debates? Is there a hidden meaning i'm not getting?
 
Quantum Ape

Quantum Ape

New Member
Terese said:
Why is this in the Evolution vs Creationism debates? Is there a hidden meaning i'm not getting?
Click to expand...

I suppose I was touching on the belief of one vs the other rather than a physical aspect. Forgive me if I posted in the wrong place I'm new and it was my first.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Quantum Ape said:
I am a happy father of two young boys.. there always getting into something. My oldest was cleaning his room on his own the other day so I asked.. "what are you doing, buddy?"

He replied he was cleaning because he knew his mother and I wanted it done.. the week before he got candy because he cleaned his room so well on his own.

So, my 4 year old was doing something that he didn't want to do just because he knew we expected it and that he was going to be rewarded in the end.

I was proud of him regardless... but that being said it would have meant more if he was cleaning his room simply because he wanted to. Just because he wanted it clean with no expectations of a reward.

So, my little story aside.. which seems more heartfelt and pure?

1). Living a good honest life because someone told you that you should and if you don't you will be punished in the end.. but if you do you'll get a treat..

Or

2). Living a good honest life simply because you want to. Just living love with no expectations of reward.

The answer to me seems clear...
Click to expand...

The latter because if it were the former even without the punishment, I'd feel confined. That's like giving an painter only two colors to paint with and expect him to draw the mountains, trees, beautiful lake, across a log cabin.

Even without the treat and punishment, I'd pick the latter. Probably because I like being me. Founder and god-centered religions never was my thing because of it.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Quantum Ape said:
I am a happy father of two young boys.. there always getting into something. My oldest was cleaning his room on his own the other day so I asked.. "what are you doing, buddy?"

He replied he was cleaning because he knew his mother and I wanted it done.. the week before he got candy because he cleaned his room so well on his own.

So, my 4 year old was doing something that he didn't want to do just because he knew we expected it and that he was going to be rewarded in the end.

I was proud of him regardless... but that being said it would have meant more if he was cleaning his room simply because he wanted to. Just because he wanted it clean with no expectations of a reward.

So, my little story aside.. which seems more heartfelt and pure?

1). Living a good honest life because someone told you that you should and if you don't you will be punished in the end.. but if you do you'll get a treat..

Or

2). Living a good honest life simply because you want to. Just living love with no expectations of reward.

The answer to me seems clear...
Click to expand...

Question, how old were you before you realized this?

You can't expect this kind of thinking from children. In many ways mankind is immature. At one point, I thought if there was a God, maybe the idea of Heaven and Hell were necessary for man until learned to do right behavior just for the sake of doing right behavior.

That's what parents/society does. Punishment and reward are artificial consequences used to teach.

Christianity I thought was created for the worst of humanity. Folks that were otherwise irredeemable. A belief for humanity until humanity was able to mature beyond the need of a punishment/reward system.

I don't begrudge religious folks the need for their system. At some point they will mature beyond this need.
 
T

Tabu

Active Member
Quantum Ape said:
I am a happy father of two young boys.. there always getting into something. My oldest was cleaning his room on his own the other day so I asked.. "what are you doing, buddy?"

He replied he was cleaning because he knew his mother and I wanted it done.. the week before he got candy because he cleaned his room so well on his own.

So, my 4 year old was doing something that he didn't want to do just because he knew we expected it and that he was going to be rewarded in the end.

I was proud of him regardless... but that being said it would have meant more if he was cleaning his room simply because he wanted to. Just because he wanted it clean with no expectations of a reward.

So, my little story aside.. which seems more heartfelt and pure?

1). Living a good honest life because someone told you that you should and if you don't you will be punished in the end.. but if you do you'll get a treat..

Or

2). Living a good honest life simply because you want to. Just living love with no expectations of reward.

The answer to me seems clear...
Click to expand...
I am reminded of a saying of Imam Ali,
He said , "Verily, some people worshipped God being desirous (Of His reward) – so this is the worship of traders; and some people worshipped God fearing (His punishment) – so it is the worship of slaves, and a group worshipped God in gratitude (to Him) so this is the worship of the free."
 
Quantum Ape

Quantum Ape

New Member
Tabu said:
I am reminded of a saying of Imam Ali,
He said , "Verily, some people worshipped God being desirous (Of His reward) – so this is the worship of traders; and some people worshipped God fearing (His punishment) – so it is the worship of slaves, and a group worshipped God in gratitude (to Him) so this is the worship of the free."
Click to expand...


No one who worships is entirely free. You may feel it under the false pretenses that your God is letting you feel that way.. but never totally free.
 
Quantum Ape

Quantum Ape

New Member
Nakosis said:
Question, how old were you before you realized this?

You can't expect this kind of thinking from children. In many ways mankind is immature. At one point, I thought if there was a God, maybe the idea of Heaven and Hell were necessary for man until learned to do right behavior just for the sake of doing right behavior.

That's what parents/society does. Punishment and reward are artificial consequences used to teach.

Christianity I thought was created for the worst of humanity. Folks that were otherwise irredeemable. A belief for humanity until humanity was able to mature beyond the need of a punishment/reward system.

I don't begrudge religious folks the need for their system. At some point they will mature beyond this need.
Click to expand...


I am not expecting that behavior from my children I was merely telling a story about them to hopefully help someone else.

And I'm happy you have your way just like I have my way. Yes, some will realize on their own.. others could use help. Regardless, I'm just playing this role because it's amusing for me.
 
T

Tabu

Active Member
Quantum Ape said:
No one who worships is entirely free. You may feel it under the false pretenses that your God is letting you feel that way.. but never totally free.
Click to expand...
I agree with you ,
'Ibadah' / Worship is submissiveness, humility and obedience which can have degrees of bondages and freedom, but I think what Imam Ali is trying to point out is that the same can be done out of gratitude and love on realizing(knowing) the innumerable bounties of God and this would set one free because such a person finds joy in worshipping ,instead of compelling oneself into worship through fear or being desirous and expecting of rewards.
I am recollecting a point from BrahmaKumri Murli which says,
" Muhabbat mehnath ko manoranjaran banadeta hai" which means,
" Love converts labor to entertainment ".
So when love is missing in any task it becomes labor , if love is flowing the same task becomes entertainment .
A BK Murli relating Knowledge and Devotion says
"Through knowledge, there is the day, happiness, and through devotion, there is the night, sorrow. Knowledge can only be received when devotion comes to an end."
 
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