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A Christian persective of God and Country

PureX

Veteran Member
Personally, I find that sort of ignorant schlock disgusting. The implication is clear: if you aren't religious, you aren't really a patriot. All I can say is God please save us from such "patriots".
 

Smoke

Done here.
fromthe heart said:
Some may like it and others may not...
No matter how obnoxious religious triumphalism, jingoism, or the glorification of warfare may be, there's nothing quite so obnoxious as the three combined. However, it's never a bad idea to stay aware of these problems. ;)
 

fromthe heart

Well-Known Member
Maize said:
So..... if you're not Christian you're not patriotic and American? :confused:

Never intended it to be taken that way at all...go figure!!!

As for the rest of the comments...I'm patriotic and I'm proud of some of our forefathers knowledge on religious issues...so what is wrong with that??? If you don't like it big deal...(if you do well ok)...get a clue! Don't make something into something it's not!:rolleyes:
 

PureX

Veteran Member
fromthe heart said:
Never intended it to be taken that way at all...go figure!!!

As for the rest of the comments...I'm patriotic and I'm proud of some of our forefathers knowledge on religious issues...so what is wrong with that??? If you don't like it big deal...(if you do well ok)...get a clue! Don't make something into something it's not!:rolleyes:
I think you are oblivious to your own prejudice. A lot of people find that sort of content insulting, and even frightening. It's combining religious elitism with nationalism, and separately these ideas are dangerous enough, but together, they are often deadly. Many of the most horrific acts in human history were committed under the banner of "God and country", and were justified by a mind-numbingly blind alliegence to these. Those of us who know this, cringe when we see this sort of thing festering in our own society.
 

Smoke

Done here.
PureX said:
I think you are oblivious to your own prejudice. A lot of people find that sort of content insulting, and even frightening.
I'm one of them, and frankly I find it even more insulting and frightening when people can't understand why.
 

sparc872

Active Member
I think you are oblivious to your own prejudice. A lot of people find that sort of content insulting, and even frightening. It's combining religious elitism with nationalism, and separately these ideas are dangerous enough, but together, they are often deadly. Many of the most horrific acts in human history were committed under the banner of "God and country", and were justified by a mind-numbingly blind alliegence to these. Those of us who know this, cringe when we see this sort of thing festering in our own society.

I would have shot some karma your way but your posts have been too good lately and I need to spread it around first.

Since when is being a Christian linked at all to patriotism? I don't know what your views are on certain issues, from theheart, but I am of the opinion that those of us who do not blindly follow what are government leaders tell us to and challenge them and make sure they are in check are the patriotic ones. How are we to be patriotic when our very leaders are making a mockery of the thing?

I'm a bit groggy so sorry if this post is a little incoherent
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
fromthe heart said:
Never intended it to be taken that way at all...go figure!!!
I beg to differ, that's exactly the idea that movie was designed to portray.
I'm patriotic
Me too. And I'm not a Christian.
and I'm proud of some of our forefathers knowledge on religious issues...
Why? Because you agree with them? What if you disagreed with their opinions on religious issues (which you probably disagree more than you agree since many of them would have been deist or unitarian), would you still be proud of their knowledge then?
so what is wrong with that?
Because it's movies like that which reaffirm the feeling that non-Christians are not welcome or wanted in this country.

I'm not saying you feel this way Judi, but I and the others are just telling you what we feel when we see propaganda like that.
 

fromthe heart

Well-Known Member
Maize I beg to differ, that's exactly the idea that movie was designed to portray.I would say that all views such as this come from personal mindsets and you can see it either way.
Me too. And I'm not a Christian. I fully agree that a person doesn't have to be religious (as in Christain) to be patriotic...but our Nation WAS founded due to not wanting religious governing and wanted freedom of religion and that's why we are discussing this now...Our founding Father's never had a clue what shape this nation would take away from God because they were as you and I just human...but they DID found our country on specific beliefs. It matters not to me what ones religion is...I love all who live in this country even those who may be out to destroy us because I see hope that the evil folks in this country may see that there are GOOD people here who want only the best for them.
Why? Because you agree with them? What if you disagreed with their opinions on religious issues (which you probably disagree more than you agree since many of them would have been deist or unitarian), would you still be proud of their knowledge then? I agree that I agree with them...I don't KNOW anything else...but if I disagreed with them I still would allow them their right of belief no matter what that might be.
Because it's movies like that which reaffirm the feeling that non-Christians are not welcome or wanted in this country. It's not my fault what they portray...and if it were you that posted something that I didn't agree with I would not give you a fit for your feelings and beliefs...Christian beliefs make me no threat to anyone...I believe in what it stands for...'love for neighbor as self' I harbor no ill will for anyone

I'm not saying you feel this way Judi, but I and the others are just telling you what we feel when we see propaganda like that.
I see nothing wrong with it...I don't see it as mere propaganda as others do...to me it's a way of life that I have known and respect. I don't mean any ill effects by it, only my love for my personal beliefs in my God, in my country's roots and my family...there was nothing but love for all 3 intended so if you want to see that as threatening in some way as one has posted well that is in YOUR personal mindset and not within mine. I won't tell you that you must believe as I do or else...that's not part of what a true Christian is..see it from any perspective...I only see it through love.:)
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
fromthe heart said:
I would say that all views such as this come from personal mindsets and you can see it either way.
Of course. It portrays your religion in a positive light, so of course you're going to agree with it and see nothing wrong with it. The rest of us have a different point of view of such propaganda.

fromthe heart said:
I fully agree that a person doesn't have to be religious (as in Christain) to be patriotic...but our Nation WAS founded due to not wanting religious governing and wanted freedom of religion and that's why we are discussing this now...Our founding Father's never had a clue what shape this nation would take away from God because they were as you and I just human...but they DID found our country on specific beliefs.
Yes they did; Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

But if you're trying to tell me that this country was founded on Christian beliefs, well if that's true after seeing what was done to the native peoples here in the name of those Christian beliefs, then I want nothing to do with that belief system.

fromthe heart said:
It's not my fault what they portray...and if it were you that posted something that I didn't agree with I would not give you a fit for your feelings and beliefs.

I don't believe for a second that if I posted something offensive towards your beliefs you wouldn't say a word about it nor would I expect you not to say anything about it. But me pointing out that this movie does not reflect the feelings of every American patriot is giving you a fit for your feelings and beliefs?
 

fromthe heart

Well-Known Member
Maize Of course. It portrays your religion in a positive light, so of course you're going to agree with it and see nothing wrong with it. The rest of us have a different point of view of such propaganda. And that's as it should be..we are not all of one mind.


Yes they did; Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. FOR ALL!

But if you're trying to tell me that this country was founded on Christian beliefs, well if that's true after seeing what was done to the native peoples here in the name of those Christian beliefs, then I want nothing to do with that belief system. Not necessarily Christian beliefs but a true belief in God. I didn't nor will I say that what transpired where the Native Americans was right or even justified...I don't fully understand why that all took place except for greed maybe...to me it was wrong...I don't know how they justified it.


I don't believe for a second that if I posted something offensive towards your beliefs you wouldn't say a word about it nor would I expect you not to say anything about it. BUT I don't...because if you wanted to post something about what you felt who am I to say that is wrong? I would not say you are not allowed your opinion on it...don't see me reporting anyone do you? I may comment that I disagree and why but that would be just about it.
But me pointing out that this movie does not reflect the feelings of every American patriot is giving you a fit for your feelings and beliefs?
Not in the slightest...I just think wrong...I see it as ones view and if you don't agree that's your choice...I will not ever say you must think as I do. I was just amazed at what it was being turned in to that wasn't meant at all in the posting of it.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Just a suggestion if you don't want to hear other viewpoints, next time you want to post something like that which is slanted towards promoting Christianity over other religions in our government, put it in the Christianity forum. Then those of us who are not Christian can't say anything about it and you can say whatever you want. :)
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
fromthe heart said:
...but they DID found our country on specific beliefs.

Yes, especially a "belief" in classical liberalism (as it is more commonly called now, merely liberalism in those days), influenced by the writings of these now infamous classical liberal thinkers, Thomas Hobbes and John Locke.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

The founders of the United States declared to all the world, exactly why they were breaking away from English rule and establishing their own independant government. This is what they wrote:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." (The document goes on to list many specific grievences against the king and his government, as ligitimization for their declaring a break with Brittish rule. Not one of these grievences involves religion in any way.)

Please note that nothing in what these men wrote indicates that they were founding this new nation on or for the sake of Christian ideals. Nothing of what they wrote is a specifically Christian idea. Christ is not mentioned, or even hinted at. The term "God" is included in the text, but only in the most general and universal way.

It is not true that the United States was founded as a Christian nation, or that it's founding was based on Christian principals. The founders discussed this idea at length in correspodance, and they rejected it. A number of the original members of the participants of the nation's founding wanted Christian provisions and declarations included, but when the debate on it was over, they all agree NOT TO DO SO.

It is a LIE being perpetuated by the Christian right that the United States is or was ever intended to be a "Christian Nation", or that it was founded on Christian principals. The United States is not and never was intended to be a Christian nation, and it was never founded on Christian religious ideology of principals. And those who claim otherwise are LYING.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Maize said:
Just a suggestion if you don't want to hear other viewpoints, next time you want to post something like that which is slanted towards promoting Christianity over other religions in our government, put it in the Christianity forum. Then those of us who are not Christian can't say anything about it and you can say whatever you want. :)
Ah yes! The "fair and balanced" method of debate so popular among the right these days ... *wink*
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
Frubals to you Judi and thank you for sharing this.:clap:

In light of the revisionist history crowd trying to undermine the importance of the faith in God our Founding Fathers, this serves as an important reminder in their own words.

What I find disgusting is the hyper-sensitive negative reactions and cheap shots at the thread starter for sharing this patriotic message. I can't say I find it surprising though.:(
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
CaptainXeroid said:
Frubals to you Judi and thank you for sharing this.:clap:

In light of the revisionist history crowd trying to undermine the importance of the faith in God our Founding Fathers, this serves as an important reminder in their own words.

What I find disgusting is the hyper-sensitive negative reactions and cheap shots at the thread starter for sharing this patriotic message. I can't say I find it surprising though.:(
I'm with you CX. Sometimes you can't win for losing. Do people just look for things to take issue with?
 

Ðanisty

Well-Known Member
Well, I'm not afraid to speak up and say that I found the posting of this video to be a cheap shot in the first place and I'm proud of everyone who pointed it out.
 
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