Jesus was a Jew. When did his followers stop being Jews?

Tarheeler · Mar 30, 2017

omega2xx said:
There is only 1 Bible. It has 2 testaments. Both were inspired by God. Both are for Christians. Which one establishes the law is irrelevant, it is established.

Your pontificating is off topic.

The question was whether Christians are Jews or not, and the answer is no. Jewish law, which is established by the Jewish Bible, determines the criteria for being a Jew.

What is or is not for Christians is irrelevant.

omega2xx · Mar 30, 2017

Tarheeler said:
Your pontificating is off topic.

The question was whether Christians are Jews or not, and the answer is no. Jewish law, which is established by the Jewish Bible, determines the criteria for being a Jew.

What is or is not for Christians is irrelevant.

You don't get to determine what is relevant for Christians. The NT defines a Jew. If you don't like what it says, that is fine with me.

rosends · Mar 30, 2017

omega2xx said:
You don't get to determine what is relevant for Christians. The NT defines a Jew. If you don't like what it says, that is fine with me.

Saying the NT defines a Jew is like saying the Quran defines a Christian. If that works for you, we can let the Russian constitution define an American also.

Tarheeler · Mar 30, 2017

omega2xx said:
You don't get to determine what is relevant for Christians. The NT defines a Jew. If you don't like what it says, that is fine with me.

I wasn't determining what was relevant for Christians. I was stating what was relevant to Jewish law.

If you're going to enter into a conversation with someone, at least pay attention to what's being said.

Akivah · Mar 30, 2017

Deeje said:
Isn't it amazing that only a relative "few" of the Jews responded to Jesus' criticism of the Jewish religious leaders of the day as being correct? (Matthew 23:13-36)

There is so much bull in your post, that it isn't worth it for me to go sentence by sentence. Suffice it to say that the Christian bible is just as authoritative as the collected works of Winnie the Pooh.

Deeje · Mar 30, 2017

Akivah said:
There is so much bull in your post, that it isn't worth it for me to go sentence by sentence. Suffice it to say that the Christian bible is just as authoritative as the collected works of Winnie the Pooh.

We each have a choice to believe what our teachers tell us. Being raised in a particular religious environment makes it a challenge to question what we are taught....but we all must. There is no point in hanging onto a religion just because it was our parents' faith. We have to search for the faith that our own hearts can accept....if that is Judaism for you, then that is your choice. At the end of the day, our everlasting future depends on our choices. We will all face the same judge.

I was raised in Christendom, but I could never take what they taught as truth because the church itself did not practice what the Christian Bible said. I left that system in my late teens, and searched in other faiths for the God I knew existed. Eastern religions put me off because of idolatry. I knew that God hated idols.
When my search proved fruitless, I tried to find the meaning to life without God and delved into evolution and atheism, but the more I researched, the more evidence I found for the Creator.

I was never attracted to Judaism because of the rituals. I cannot see God demanding certain rituals and the performance of them if one's life is not godly in all its other aspects. This is what I saw in Christendom....performance, as if this is all that God wants from us. Rituals are performed in the mind...worship comes from the heart.
All of the Jewish rituals (extreme ones in the Ultra Orthodox) I know are symbolic but what do they accomplish in today's world?

I believe that all of what the scriptures teach (both yours and mine) have been fulfilled in the life, ministry and death of Jesus Christ. You are free to disagree. I have no beef with Jewish people and I am tired of people playing the "anti-Semitic" or "race" card every time a criticism is presented. Emotion does not need to enter this discussion because at the end of the day we all have much to lose if we have disrespected the true God in the worship we have chosen.

Can I ask how the Jewish community see the Messianic Jewish movement? Do you see them in much the same way as those who followed Christ in the first century? Are they 'apostates' in your estimations?

Deeje · Mar 31, 2017

MHz said:
God has a special mission for the Jews that were in the Temple yet remains in unbelief in the same fashion that Saul was. Stephen was killed by this same group and they and the money-changers escaped with all the gold in 70AD.

I'm sorry, but that is an extremely convoluted story, nowhere near anything that I have read in the scriptures.

La:1:1:
How doth the city sit solitary,
that was full of people!
how is she become as a widow!
she that was great among the nations,
and princess among the provinces,
how is she become tributary!

Cross references to Lamentations 1:1 are....

The warning to God's people for unfaithfulness.....Deuteronomy 28:15: “But if you will not listen to the voice of Jehovah your God by taking care to do all his commandments and his statutes that I am commanding you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you"

The penalty for disobedience. Deuteronomy 28:48: "Jehovah will send your enemies against you, and you will serve them while you are hungry and thirsty and poorly clothed and lacking everything. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has annihilated you."

The sentence is carried out. 2 Kings 25:11-12: "Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took into exile the rest of the people who were left in the city, the deserters who had gone over to the king of Babylon, and the rest of the population. 12 But the chief of the guard left some of the poorest people of the land to serve as vinedressers and as compulsory laborers."

Unfaithful Jerusalem (God's ancient nation of Israel) was a pictorial example of what would happen under the control of a "greater Babylon" in the future.

Just as the Israelites suffered physically and spiritually in exile under the yoke of ancient Babylon, so God's future worshippers were to suffer under a similar yoke of false worship.
"Babylon the great" was to be identified only at the end times, when God's true worshippers were able to clearly identify her and follow God's instructions.....

See Revelation 18:7 in context.....
Revelation 18:4-8:
"And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Repay her in the way she treated others, yes, pay her back double for the things she has done; in the cup she has mixed, mix a double portion for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong."

If we have not removed ourselves from Babylon the great by the time of God's sentence being carried out, we will go down with her. She represents all religions that are outside of God's prescribed worship.....including Christendom. He views them all as spiritually immoral, like a harlot in bed with God's enemies. Being in command of the "beast" she is riding, she cannot see that it will turn on her and destroy her......by God's command. (Revelation 17:3-6)

We have the option of leaving "Babylon the great" and returning to God, just like the Israelites did when they left ancient Babylon and returned to Jerusalem. Only a remnant of them came home. And after 70 years in captivity, the majority of the ones returning were born in Babylon....but it was never a spiritual "home" to God's people.

The role God has for the ones that are from the 12 Tribes during the 3 1/2 years that expire before the day of His return happens. Their unfortunate role is to be the harlot to the red dragon. Satan was around as a physical being during the 3 1/2 years that expired before the cross. The story of the beggar Lazarus and the Rich Man turns out to be a prophecy rather than anything else. The Rich Man stands for Jews who end up in hell yet are still resurrected to eternal sinless life on the same day. We can cover all the details but the most convincing one is that only Jerusalem has thought that she would never be made desolate by God.That is God's way for killing one of the Prophets He has sent to OT Israel.

Again, this is far from what I believe is taught in scripture.

The 12 tribes described in Revelation 7, are not fleshly Israel.

Romans 2:29:
"But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

Romans 9:6
"However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.”

Galatians 6:16
"As for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God."

The "Israel of God" that Paul was speaking about was 'spiritual' Israel, made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians.

This is the Israel spoken about in Revelation 7.

The rich man and Lazarus was a parable about role reversal. The rich man pictured the Pharisees and the beggar pictured the "lost sheep" whom the Pharisees treated badly. From the "bosom" position, which was one of favor, the Pharisees lost it, but the lowly ones who accepted Jesus gained it. Their 'deaths' were a change in position.It was never a literal scenario.

There is no "hell" in the Bible. There is no immortal soul that goes flitting off to places unknown. The grave keeps its occupants until The Lord Jesus returns to resurrect them under the rulership of his Kingdom. (John 5:28-29) Those chosen to rule with Christ, are resurrected first. (Revelation 20:6) They will direct their rulership to earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

God also made sure the vision on the mountain with Christ and Moses and Elias was seen by just 3 people and they were forbidden to speak about it until the cross was a completed event. Had the vision taken place at the time and location of the sermon in Matt:23 they would have become believers and the cross would never have happened.

I have no idea how you come up with these things. Jesus had promised in Matthew 16:28.....
"Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

He fulfilled that promise when Peter, James and John were granted a vision of Jesus in his Kingdom glory at the transfiguration. (Matthew 17:9)

Are these your own thoughts or are you getting them from some other group? :shrug:

Shem Ben Noah · Mar 31, 2017

Deeje said:
...
Jesus also said that the law was now reduced down to just two. He said....."On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets". (Matthew 22:35-40) Love of God and neighbor prevents a Christians from breaking any of God's laws. Think about it....

Nice try, but NO. Jesus was NOT replacing the entire Torah with just 2 laws here. I can easily refute this with other teachings of his, but if you're going to try to weasel out of the Sermon on the MT. and considering your other posts here, I've decided not to bother.

Deeje · Mar 31, 2017

Shem Ben Noah said:
Nice try, but NO. Jesus was NOT replacing the entire Torah with just 2 laws here. I can easily refute this with other teachings of his, but if you're going to try to weasel out of the Sermon on the MT. and considering your other posts here, I've decided not to bother.

Who is trying to weasel out of anything?

You do understand what Jesus meant by his statement in Matthew 22: 36-40? He was not negating the Sermon on the Mount.

When he said that love of God and neighbor were the most important commands, he said "On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

It was therefore impossible to break any command of God without breaking either one of those two laws.

Rival · Mar 31, 2017

MHz said:
God has a special mission for the Jews that were in the Temple yet remains in unbelief in the same fashion that Saul was. Stephen was killed by this same group and they and the money-changers escaped with all the gold in 70AD.
The role God has for the ones that are from the 12 Tribes during the 3 1/2 years that expire before the day of His return happens. Their unfortunate role is to be the harlot to the red dragon. Satan was around as a physical being during the 3 1/2 years that expired before the cross. The story of the beggar Lazarus and the Rich Man turns out to be a prophecy rather than anything else. The Rich Man stands for Jews who end up in hell yet are still resurrected to eternal sinless life on the same day. We can cover all the details but the most convincing one is that only Jerusalem has thought that she would never be made desolate by God.That is God's way for killing one of the Prophets He has sent to OT Israel.

La:1:1:
How doth the city sit solitary,
that was full of people!
how is she become as a widow!
she that was great among the nations,
and princess among the provinces,
how is she become tributary!

Re:18:7:
How much she hath glorified herself,
and lived deliciously,
so much torment and sorrow give her:
for she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and shall see no sorrow.

God also made sure the vision on the mountain with Christ and Moses and Elias was seen by just 3 people and they were forbidden to speak about it until the cross was a completed event. Had the vision taken place at the time and location of the sermon in Matt:23 they would have become believers and the cross would never have happened.

Your disgusting antisemitism has been noted.

MHz · Mar 31, 2017

Deeje said:
Are these your own thoughts or are you getting them from some other group?

My own as far as it is referencing what the 1611KJV has been able to show me over the last few decades. You will be able to verify my views are unique to you and have not been part of any of your previous discussions so it is rather hard to label them 'in error' before you have read what they are. Very nice post BTW and that made it very easy to form a reply that is (hopefully) similar in style. The path I will lead you down in our posts will point to Ge:3:15 being one of the most important verses in the Bible. If you take Ge:1-3 and Re:20-22 that tells you who God is and where earth came from and where it is going to. That also tells us that in the end we know about good and evil and we are before God and not facing punishment.
The rest of the Bible is about Ge:3:15 and the two bruises with OT Israel playing the role of 'the seed of Eve' who was to be bruised on the heel. Re:12 pretty much verifies that as it is an expansion of the two bruises and the cross was the event that fulfilled all things to do with the bruise to the heel. When Acts:10 went from a vision for Jews only to the lead Apostle spending a weekend with some Gentiles and God was the topic. The rest of the NT is written to 'the seed of Eve' who is like Joseph and Moses were to the 12 Tribes only the woman in the last verse of Re:12 is referencing the Beloved Disciple of John the Baptist, aka Mary of Bethany.

Deeje said:
I'm sorry, but that is an extremely convoluted story, nowhere near anything that I have read in the scriptures.

The Scriptures would show that it was the Jews who were the subject of the Matt:23 sermon were the ones persecuting the Christian Jews after the cross and there is no sign that it ever let up. The writer of Revelations was in Greece and the subject of her sermon is all the Gentiles on the planet as they will come under the same level of condemnation as did the (faulty) Temple Staff in Matt:23.
When Stephen was killed all Christians ran away except for the 12 Apostles who stayed in Jerusalem and personally experienced the events described in Luke:21:12-24. Events that were the fulfillment of some OT prophecy.

De:4:24:
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire,
even a jealous God.
De:4:25:
When thou shalt beget children,
and children's children,
and ye shall have remained long in the land,
and shall corrupt yourselves,
and make a graven image,
or the likeness of any thing,
and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God,
to provoke him to anger:

The Bible's version would include the determination that was brought on all the nations in the whole world in Jeremiah:25. Gentiles are the ones facing punishment for not being able to spot Satan as a false God. A few chapters before that it was the Temple leaders that were more than willing to kill Jeremiah over the message he brought from God. Sins of that nature led to God sending in Neb. to exile the 12 tribes to Babylon. It is only in the last few pages of Revelation that another Babylon is mentioned and that should mean the OT prophecies should be examined to see if some apply to this 2nd Babylon.The short answer is the NT Babylon is totally destroyed forever and Neb's Babylon has a fate that is not quite that severe.
Another method is to examine all the books listed after Daniel for the prophecies that deal with a city as it will be referencing the Jerusalem we know that is under the possession of fallen angels for the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses are dead in the streets of Jerusalem. That is Satan's Babylon.

De:4:26:
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day,
that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;
ye shall not prolong your days upon it,
but shall utterly be destroyed.
De:4:27:
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.

The exile in the OT was to a single place,the scattering in 70 AD was the beginning of a scattering that would eventually cover the globe. The few in numbers is referencing the 144,000 that are sealed for protection from the manifestation of the trumps from Revelations:8 and 9.

De:4:28:
And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands,
wood and stone,
which neither see,
nor hear,
nor eat,
nor smell.
De:4:29:
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God,
thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Luke:21:24 was in 70AD and it was the start of an era that is called 'the time of the Gentiles' and the temple for Gentiles is the one in Re:4 and 11 and you get there through saying a prayer. That would be the same way Daniel talked to God when he was in exile in Babylon.

De:4:30:
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee,
even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
De:4:31:
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God

he will not forsake thee,
neither destroy thee,
nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

The above is a reference to the 5th and 6th trumps specifically as they are known as the first two of three woes on all the inhabitants of the earth

Brickjectivity · Mar 31, 2017

MHz said:
God has a special mission for the Jews that were in the Temple yet remains in unbelief in the same fashion that Saul was. Stephen was killed by this same group and they and the money-changers escaped with all the gold in 70AD.
The role God has for the ones that are from the 12 Tribes during the 3 1/2 years that expire before the day of His return happens. Their unfortunate role is to be the harlot to the red dragon. Satan was around as a physical being during the 3 1/2 years that expired before the cross. The story of the beggar Lazarus and the Rich Man turns out to be a prophecy rather than anything else. The Rich Man stands for Jews who end up in hell yet are still resurrected to eternal sinless life on the same day. We can cover all the details but the most convincing one is that only Jerusalem has thought that she would never be made desolate by God.That is God's way for killing one of the Prophets He has sent to OT Israel.

La:1:1:
How doth the city sit solitary,
that was full of people!
how is she become as a widow!
she that was great among the nations,
and princess among the provinces,
how is she become tributary!

Re:18:7:
How much she hath glorified herself,
and lived deliciously,
so much torment and sorrow give her:
for she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and shall see no sorrow.

God also made sure the vision on the mountain with Christ and Moses and Elias was seen by just 3 people and they were forbidden to speak about it until the cross was a completed event. Had the vision taken place at the time and location of the sermon in Matt:23 they would have become believers and the cross would never have happened.

Ignorance continues to announce its knowledge and patch together slanderous accusations, but why? When did the church of the accused become the church of the false accuser? It is a reasonable question with a fairly long answer.

So your argument (if it can be called an argument) is that because you can manage to squeeze a translated poem from the Apocolypse into a similar form to a translated poem from Lamentations that its OK to accuse Jews of being, basically, Satan? Its like you're cleaning the toilet with your tongue. Don't forget to floss.

MHz · Mar 31, 2017

Deeje said:
Cross references to Lamentations 1:1 are....

The warning to God's people for unfaithfulness.....Deuteronomy 28:15: “But if you will not listen to the voice of Jehovah your God by taking care to do all his commandments and his statutes that I am commanding you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you"

The penalty for disobedience. Deuteronomy 28:48: "Jehovah will send your enemies against you, and you will serve them while you are hungry and thirsty and poorly clothed and lacking everything. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has annihilated you."

The sentence is carried out. 2 Kings 25:11-12: "Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took into exile the rest of the people who were left in the city, the deserters who had gone over to the king of Babylon, and the rest of the population. 12 But the chief of the guard left some of the poorest people of the land to serve as vinedressers and as compulsory laborers."

As mentioned the Bible introduces another Babylon, This is also where Ge:3:15 can help and any prophesy concerning Babylon is either going to be the one prior to the cross or the one after the cross that has to be defeated before the literal resurrection in Eze:37 takes place. There are a lot of passages involved, any in the OT or NT that match 'day of the lord' is referencing re:11 and the sequence that leads up to the sounding of the 7th trump and the death of all sinners on the planet that is completed in just a few hours and then the resurrection of the whole House of Israel in a literal resurrection.
24 passages have that phrase and all of them Satan's Babylon rather than it being Nebs. Neb was a firm believer in God before he died. Satan's Babylon sees a few fallen angels from Ge:6 being thrown into the lake of fire, that is a first time event that is still not fulfilled.

Deeje said:
Unfaithful Jerusalem (God's ancient nation of Israel) was a pictorial example of what would happen under the control of a "greater Babylon" in the future.

Neb's Babylon was too short of an exile to be the full punishment. What was determined to be their sin is the same one that is connected to the harlot of Re:17. In Fa:11 the daughter of the king is the same harlot and their fates are similar, they do not make it to the return without visiting the grave. Moses died before he was 120 as going to the grave means he is resurrected as being sinless so God can put blessings on him instead of curses. Because the crimes are similar the fate should be similar. In 70 AD some were taken away, in the promised return as given in the 12 books listed after Daniel in the OT they are brought back to the holy land and in the NT that is only the 144,000 that witness the return in the same detail the 3 Apostles saw the vision on the mountain.They will even be at that same location to witness the retaking of Jerusalem and then the resurrection of the whole House of Israel (Eze:37 and then the trip to the river in Eze:47 where they are given a glorified body and then the prophecies about life in the 1,000 year reign begin to unfold. When Satan is released the holy land is returned to garden state including a city that would have been build had sin never entered the world.

Deeje said:
Just as the Israelites suffered physically and spiritually in exile under the yoke of ancient Babylon, so God's future worshippers were to suffer under a similar yoke of false worship.
"Babylon the great" was to be identified only at the end times, when God's true worshippers were able to clearly identify her and follow God's instructions.....

Really?? The whole book of Daniel points to him and his 3 friends were well taken care of while 'in harsh exile'. Are we talking about the same God??
The mark of the beast is a business permit that allows that person to buy and sell things and they get rich by raising the price on the items for sale without any cost to justify a higher price. In the Gospels they are the 'money-changers'

Deeje said:
See Revelation 18:7 in context.....
Revelation 18:4-8:
"And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Repay her in the way she treated others, yes, pay her back double for the things she has done; in the cup she has mixed, mix a double portion for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong."

That would be in the transition from the 2nd woe to the 3rd woe as detailed in Re:11 to when it unfolds.The 3rd woe is the pouring out of the 7 vials from Re:11. That process only takes a few hours and in the next few hours after that the resurrection from the grave takes place.Posting the Scripture at this point is helpful for getting a clear view of the concept.

Deeje said:
If we have not removed ourselves from Babylon the great by the time of God's sentence being carried out, we will go down with her. She represents all religions that are outside of God's prescribed worship.....including Christendom. He views them all as spiritually immoral, like a harlot in bed with God's enemies. Being in command of the "beast" she is riding, she cannot see that it will turn on her and destroy her......by God's command. (Revelation 17:3-6)

Zec:13 says 2/3 of the people on the planet will die by fire,that is the same fire used on Sodom in the OT and it takes out Satan's Babylon (our Jerusalem except for the few days the two witnesses are dead in the street)

Deeje said:
We have the option of leaving "Babylon the great" and returning to God, just like the Israelites did when they left ancient Babylon and returned to Jerusalem. Only a remnant of them came home. And after 70 years in captivity, the majority of the ones returning were born in Babylon....but it was never a spiritual "home" to God's people.

I'm pretty sure that if the prophecy allows Satan to deceive 2/3 of all the people on the planet that it is a number that can be 'adjusted' and still be considered to relate to what the Bible promotes.

Deeje said:
Again, this is far from what I believe is taught in scripture.

Your case against my version would be stronger if you had heard of it in the past and it was rejected because it did not mesh with the bible. It'satopic that can be explored later.

Deeje said:
The 12 tribes described in Revelation 7, are not fleshly Israel.

Romans 2:29:
"But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

Romans 9:6
"However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.”

Galatians 6:16
"As for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God."

The "Israel of God" that Paul was speaking about was 'spiritual' Israel, made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians.

When it says God hides his face from a group in Eze:39 it is Israel playing the harlot so the bruise to Satan's head can take place

Deeje said:
This is the Israel spoken about in Revelation 7.

Deeje said:
The rich man and Lazarus was a parable about role reversal. The rich man pictured the Pharisees and the beggar pictured the "lost sheep" whom the Pharisees treated badly. From the "bosom" position, which was one of favor, the Pharisees lost it, but the lowly ones who accepted Jesus gained it. Their 'deaths' were a change in position.It was never a literal scenario.

I said it was a prophecy and the ones in hell are associated with Moses so that pretty much solves who is being referenced.

Deeje said:
There is no "hell" in the Bible. There is no immortal soul that goes flitting off to places unknown. The grave keeps its occupants until The Lord Jesus returns to resurrect them under the rulership of his Kingdom. (John 5:28-29) Those chosen to rule with Christ, are resurrected first. (Revelation 20:6) They will direct their rulership to earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

M't:23:37:
O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem,
thou that killest the prophets,
and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and ye would not!

M't:23:30:
And say,
If we had been in the days of our fathers,
we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

M't:23:35:
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias,
whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Re:17:6:
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints,
and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:
and when I saw her,
I wondered with great admiration.

Stephen was the martyr. God had no problem making Pharaoh's heart hard so all the plagues would happen, this is similar.

Deeje said:
I have no idea how you come up with these things. Jesus had promised in Matthew 16:28.....
"Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

He fulfilled that promise when Peter, James and John were granted a vision of Jesus in his Kingdom glory at the transfiguration. (Matthew 17:9)

I read a lot of Scripture, a lot more than get posted and that is a shame because it was those things that convinced me to believe the way I do today.

Shown and then forbidden to mention it until the cross was a completed event. The cross was the bruise to the heel, one big step in seeing both bruised as being completed.Determining which event a prophecy applies to is quite easy for that step and that makes the next steps go faster as backtracking is virtually eliminated.

Akivah · Mar 31, 2017

Shalom Deeje

Deeje said:
We each have a choice to believe what our teachers tell us. Being raised in a particular religious environment makes it a challenge to question what we are taught....but we all must. There is no point in hanging onto a religion just because it was our parents' faith. We have to search for the faith that our own hearts can accept....if that is Judaism for you, then that is your choice. At the end of the day, our everlasting future depends on our choices. We will all face the same judge.

I agree. In my youth, I disbelieved in G-d and went the atheist/agnostic route. Then I had a series of life experiences which led me back to G-d and Judaism, after a few years of searching for answers. And to be clear, I agree that we will face the same Judge, but I disagree that the Christian god is it.

Deeje said:
I was raised in Christendom, but I could never take what they taught as truth because the church itself did not practice what the Christian Bible said. I left that system in my late teens, and searched in other faiths for the God I knew existed. Eastern religions put me off because of idolatry. I knew that God hated idols.

I disbelieved in G-d back then, because I didn't find any scientific evidence for G-d. However, when I was in process of returning, I didn't look anywhere other than Judaism. No other religion made sense to me. The Christian religion always struck me as laughable. Plus, I agree that G-d warned against idols, that was another reason to avoid your religion.

Deeje said:
...I tried to find the meaning to life without God and delved into evolution and atheism, but the more I researched, the more evidence I found for the Creator.

I agree.

Deeje said:
I was never attracted to Judaism because of the rituals...

If a person can't commit to life changes, then I agree that Judaism is not the right religion for them.

Shem Ben Noah · Apr 1, 2017

Deeje said:
You do understand what Jesus meant by his statement in Matthew 22: 36-40? He was not negating the Sermon on the Mount.

When he said that love of God and neighbor were the most important commands, he said "On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

If you meant categories of laws, that's not what you said, you clearly said "two laws'.

And even that is not correct, as there are three categories of laws, and the point Jesus meant was that these two have higher priority than the third.

But NOT that the third category can be discarded. And that's what Xians do, and why the OP is wrong and what differentiates a Jew from Xian.

Simplest example is that Jews keep Kosher and Xians dont, as Xians discard these laws. Clearly against that teaching from the Sermon on the MT. that I referenced earlier.

Deeje said:
It was therefore impossible to break any command of God without breaking either one of those two laws.

Wishful thinking but simply untrue.

Deeje · Apr 1, 2017

Shem Ben Noah said:
If you meant categories of laws, that's not what you said, you clearly said "two laws'.

At Matthew 19:16-24, it says....
"Now look! someone came up to him and said: “Teacher, what good must I do to gain everlasting life?” 17 He said to him: “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.” 18 He said to him: “Which ones?” Jesus said: “You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not bear false witness, 19 honor your father and your mother, and you must love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him: “I have kept all of these; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come be my follower.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away grieved, for he had many possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to you that it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the heavens. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”

Now contrast this with what Jesus said in Matthew 22:34-40....
"After the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together in one group. 35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

In the first passage, Jesus counsels a rich young man about the things he should be observing according to the law....remembering that this was a Jewish teacher counseling a fellow Jew, both under law. These things were contained in the 10 Commandments.

But the time was coming when Jesus would lay down his life "once for all time" making all animal sacrifices unnecessary.

The apostle Peter wrote....
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."

There was now no need to perform the sacrificial parts of the law because they had been fulfilled in Christ.

Simplest example is that Jews keep Kosher and Xians dont, as Xians discard these laws. Clearly against that teaching from the Sermon on the MT. that I referenced earlier.

No, they are not against the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus knew full well why he was sent to earth and what his mission would accomplish with regard to the law.

God's initial promise to Abraham was to bless "all the nations" by means of Abraham's seed.

After giving Abraham's descendants first option at becoming the foundation members of the "New Covenant", (prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-33,) God turned his attention to the Gentiles so that they too could benefit from Christ's sacrifice as God's promise to Abraham had indicated. (Acts 15:14) Gentiles were not under the Law because it was only binding on Jews. Gentiles could become Christians without becoming Jewish proselytes, hence the Jewish dietary requirements did not apply to them for the most part.
Gentiles did not need to be circumcised either, as the body of older men in Jerusalem made clear. Some of the Pharisees who had accepted Christ, insisted that the Gentiles be circumcised and observe the law.

This was the decision handed down by the apostles in Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29....
"For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

The only dietary restriction was the consumption of blood and eating the flesh of improperly bled animals....something that was common among Gentiles, along with idol worship and sexual immorality.

Kosher is for Jews....I am not Jewish. I am a Gentile, not under law but still under certain restrictions as noted in Acts 15:28-29.

Shem Ben Noah said:
Wishful thinking but simply untrue.

If Jesus said that the whole law was based on those two commandments, then I will take him at his word.

Deeje · Apr 1, 2017

Akivah said:
Shalom Deeje

Peace to you too Akivah.

I agree. In my youth, I disbelieved in G-d and went the atheist/agnostic route. Then I had a series of life experiences which led me back to G-d and Judaism, after a few years of searching for answers. And to be clear, I agree that we will face the same Judge, but I disagree that the Christian god is it.

I guess we are all the end result of life experiences and choices. They are ours to make of our own free will.

I disbelieved in G-d back then, because I didn't find any scientific evidence for G-d. However, when I was in process of returning, I didn't look anywhere other than Judaism. No other religion made sense to me. The Christian religion always struck me as laughable. Plus, I agree that G-d warned against idols, that was another reason to avoid your religion.

It sounds like we each returned to God but via a different path. Our upbringing obviously influenced our choice. Only I discovered that the God of Christendom is not the God of Jesus Christ. I found that the God of Jesus was the God of the Jews, but I believe that the Jews have lost sight of him, staying bogged down in laws and rituals that no longer have relevance. The Christian scriptures say that Jesus took the written code away, removing the curse it became to all Jews who proved every day that they could not keep it. The principles all still apply however.

How do you see God's promise to Abraham fulfilled? How are 'all the nations blessed by Abraham's seed'? (Genesis 22:15-18)

If a person can't commit to life changes, then I agree that Judaism is not the right religion for them.

I think that tends to apply both ways. Only those Jews who were willing to change, followed Jesus. He emphasized the spirit of the law rather than rigidly keeping the letter of it without mercy.
Performance wasn't what God wanted....he wanted worship to come from the heart.

Jesus said of those religious leaders in his day....
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!"

Given the track record of many of the nation's leaders down through history, do you think Jesus words were untrue? If so why?

roger1440 · Apr 1, 2017

GeelongFams4WldPeace said:
Jesus was a Jew teaching his followers. I have heard Jews refer to him as a Rabbi.
He said that he didn't come to destroy the (Mosaic) Law, but to fulfill it. (Matt 5:17-20)
Therefore, are Christians allowed to call ourselves Jews?

You would have to start by defining a "Jew". You may not get the same answer even among some Jews.

Kelly of the Phoenix · Apr 1, 2017

Brickjectivity said:
Secondly, Jewish people were the most advanced culture of their time, treating one another kindly and well spoken of by other cultures.

Source? When have Jewish countries ever been superior technologically or ethically to others? I mean, I know THEY considered themselves all that and a bag of chips, but women had more rights in ancient Egypt, the Wisest Man Solomon still has to outsource building the Temple because there are no Jewish people good at math or whatever (pi is the least accurate out of all the surrounding cultures), God is a fairy who can be defeated by soldiers with iron, etc.

This is not a dig. I mean, every culture has its pros and cons (my own country thinks itself the best, and well, it's just not, statistically speaking, from many different angles), just Israel/Judah didn't have the pros you're mentioning.

Deeje said:
The Greek scriptures are propaganda?

You can tell what parts of the bible are propaganda easily: are there words on the page?

Deeje said:
Jesus pronounced the sentence.

Biblical authors SAID he did.

Deeje said:
Jesus fulfilled more messianic prophesies than anyone before or since.

It's easy when you write the prophecies after the fact.

Deeje said:
They held an illegal trial with false witnesses and when the Roman Governor found him innocent of any charge deserving death, they threatened to report him to Caesar for treason.

Pilate wouldn't have found him innocent. Even Romans knew Pilate was mean, and this was a culture that did unspeakable things.

Deeje said:
If he was not the Christ, then why go to such lengths to get rid of him?

Spartacus and friends made an entire forest of crucifixes. So what? Again, Romans did unspeakable things to people, even people they tolerated.

Deeje said:
We can accept the scriptures as they are written or we can reject them. Who is telling the truth and who has been misled? Isn't that the real question?

Yup. I see people who needed someone else to blame while trying to get official imperial consent to worship. That's it.

Deeje said:
Jesus' description of the Jewish leaders of his day was not exactly flattering.

I can describe Jesus in not-exactly-flattering ways either. So what?

Deeje said:
God knows who is right....he will be the judge of all.

Well, given how Yahweh is allergic to iron, that must be why Israel keeps having to get money and weapons from us instead of Him.

Deeje said:
Its our choice as to what we will believe.

True, but one side is going to have more evidence than the other.

Deeje: I have the best ice cream. It's rich, creamy, and no one on earth can exceed its standards.

Me: It's got sawdust filler.

Deeje: It's our choice as to what we will believe.

Me: I'M GETTING SPLINTERS TRYING TO EAT IT!

Nothing personal, just centuries of wading through BS ...

Deeje said:
I am a JW and my brothers and sisters shared the concentration camps with the Jews in Nazi Germany. Hitler hated both of us so please don't talk to me about antisemitism......many of my own brethren were executed because they would not support that antisemitic regime.

So why sympathize with the position it's all "the Jews'" fault? Usually, if the bad guys and you agree, something is off somewhere.

Deeje said:
When Israel obeyed their God, they prospered in the extreme, according to scripture.

At what point? Have any sources ... like archaeology? History? Biology (were Jewish skeletons of that period healthier than ones outside the country)?

Deeje said:
But when they disobeyed him, he left them to their enemies.

So much for the Good Shepherd who will go to any lengths to save a wayward flock, huh?

Deeje said:
Only those who come to accept the Christ as their Messiah will ever get to benefit from the Messianic promises. Jesus is "the way, the truth and the life"....Jesus said..."NO ONE comes to the Father except through me". Where does that leave the Jews or anyone else who rejects Christ?

I can skip Jesus and ask God. Done.

Deeje said:
Messiah would be of the tribe of Judah.

Considering the texts started to be written down largely after Judah was the only kingdom left standing ....

Deeje said:
He was to be born of a virgin.

Mistranslated. Unnecessary. Silly. Hellenized.

Deeje said:
Babies killed after his birth

Infanticide happened a lot. So what?

Deeje said:
Someone like Elijah was to prepare the way for him.

There's always the PR guy before the Leader shows up.

Deeje said:
Zeal for God's House would consume him.

LOL, "please take this cup away from me".

Deeje said:
Entry into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey.

As opposed to a car?

Deeje said:
Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.

Nothing can ever cost that much money without being a prophecy?

Deeje said:
I am not sure where you are getting your 'facts', but none of them appear to be correct. Jesus himself predicted how long he would remain in the tomb before his resurrection....

And if you had a text that clearly predates the execution, I'd go for it.

Deeje said:
He said he was returning to his God and Father in heaven.

After finding out just how much my message got me killed, I wouldn't want to hang around either. Again, the "Good Shepherd who will stick with you", ladies and gentlemen.

Deeje said:
Fleshly Israel had over 1500 years to get their act together and become that "kingdom of priests and a holy nation" that was prophesied for the future under Messiah's rule....but they could not remain faithful to their covenant.

That's because you can't run a kingdom on it.

Deeje said:
So once his promise to Abraham was honored, he divorced that unfaithful nation and chose a new nation to serve his interest on earth.

Hosea told me that God was the faithful one, not the one who divorced you after griping about who was taking out the trash.

Deeje said:
If the Jews were still God's people, then the temple would have been rebuilt. It never has.....do you know why?

It's stupid. Jesus' point was that the Temple was unnecessary. Older prophets tried to tell David to skip building the thing anyway. God doesn't need a physical building.

Deeje said:
Do you think Jesus was anti-Semitic or do you think he was trying to correct some arrogant Jewish leaders who forgot how to serve God's people like Moses did?

Depends on the author?

Deeje said:
The track record of the Jewish leaders in taking the people off track spiritually is all recorded in your scriptures.

The track record of a biblical author whining about how no one is listening to (I assume) him when he has all the answers is right there in the scriptures.

Deeje said:
Jesus lamented that the prophets sent by God to correct his people in the past were often put to death.

But that did not happen, making Jesus a liar (because you are unwilling to separate what Jesus may have said from what authors said he said).

Deeje said:
having grown up in a devout Jewish family

The one he rarely saw or spoke to and the one who thought he'd lost his mind? That family?

Deeje said:
We each have a choice to believe what our teachers tell us.

And if we want to see if our teachers are legit, we can fact-check them. Oh, wait, your denomination frowns on that. Religion of Truth ... unless we don't feel like it.

allright · Apr 1, 2017

There is nothing more Jewish than accepting the Messiah Jesus.

Those physical Jew rejecting Jesus are totally cut off from God and living in delusion

Why should it surprise anyone that they rejected the Messiah with their record of rejecting God's prophets from Moses on down

Yet God loves them and seek their return as his prodigal sons and daughters

Jesus was a Jew. When did his followers stop being Jews?

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