-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Is Baptism Necessary If You Believe in The Bible?
- Thread starter Bishka
- Start date
Mystic-als
Active Member
That one scripture doesn't need "refuting". Does this scripture say anything about "if you don't get baptised I will strike your name from the lambs book of life and you'll be powerless to overcome the wicked one. " No.
If you meet a woman who cheated on her husband do you stone her? Thats in the bible.
Can you say to a mountain "be removed and cast into the sea" and it does what you command? Thats in the bible
You can pick out almost any one thing from the bible and use it to make a statement like the one above.
If you meet a woman who cheated on her husband do you stone her? Thats in the bible.
Can you say to a mountain "be removed and cast into the sea" and it does what you command? Thats in the bible
You can pick out almost any one thing from the bible and use it to make a statement like the one above.
BucephalusBB
ABACABB
for just following? I guess not. For being part of the religion however, I don't know.
And to go against it all I have been baptised and do not believe *whistles*
And to go against it all I have been baptised and do not believe *whistles*
Mystic-als
Active Member
You and me both Bouncing Ball
I voted 'no', and managed to find something to back up my answer!
http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Mark-16-16.html (an excerpt)
Question: "Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"
Answer: First, it is important to remember that there are some textual issues with Mark chapter 16, verses 9-20. There is some question as to whether these verses were originally part of the Gospel of Mark, or whether they were added later by a scribe. As a result, it is best not to base a key doctrine on anything from Mark 16:9-20, such as snake-handling, unless it is also supported by other Scriptures.
Assuming that Mark 16:16 does belong in Scripture, does it teach that baptism is required for salvation? The simple answer is: No, it does not. In fact, when one carefully examines this verse it becomes clear that in order to make this verse teach that baptism is required for salvation one, must go beyond what the verse actually says. What this verse does teach is that belief is necessary for salvation, which is consistent with all other verses in the Bible that deal with salvation, especially the countless verses where only belief or faith is mentioned (e.g. John 3:18; John 5:24; John 12:44; John 20:31; 1 John 5:13).
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16). If we look at this verse closely we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2He who does not believe will be condemned.
Clearly the common factor of both statements and the determining factor as to if one is saved or condemned is whether or not they believe. In interpreting this passage correctly it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized.
In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation a third statement would have had to be included. That statement would be: He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned or He who is not baptized will be condemned. But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.
Those that try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious logical fallacy, that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This fallacy can be stated as follows: If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are true. In other words just because Mark 16:16 says that He who believes and is baptized will be saved does not mean that if one believes, but is not baptized, they will not be saved. Yet, this is exactly what is assumed by those that look to this verse to support the view that baptism is necessary for salvation.
http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Mark-16-16.html (an excerpt)
Question: "Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"
Answer: First, it is important to remember that there are some textual issues with Mark chapter 16, verses 9-20. There is some question as to whether these verses were originally part of the Gospel of Mark, or whether they were added later by a scribe. As a result, it is best not to base a key doctrine on anything from Mark 16:9-20, such as snake-handling, unless it is also supported by other Scriptures.
Assuming that Mark 16:16 does belong in Scripture, does it teach that baptism is required for salvation? The simple answer is: No, it does not. In fact, when one carefully examines this verse it becomes clear that in order to make this verse teach that baptism is required for salvation one, must go beyond what the verse actually says. What this verse does teach is that belief is necessary for salvation, which is consistent with all other verses in the Bible that deal with salvation, especially the countless verses where only belief or faith is mentioned (e.g. John 3:18; John 5:24; John 12:44; John 20:31; 1 John 5:13).
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16). If we look at this verse closely we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2He who does not believe will be condemned.
Clearly the common factor of both statements and the determining factor as to if one is saved or condemned is whether or not they believe. In interpreting this passage correctly it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized.
In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation a third statement would have had to be included. That statement would be: He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned or He who is not baptized will be condemned. But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.
Those that try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious logical fallacy, that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This fallacy can be stated as follows: If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are true. In other words just because Mark 16:16 says that He who believes and is baptized will be saved does not mean that if one believes, but is not baptized, they will not be saved. Yet, this is exactly what is assumed by those that look to this verse to support the view that baptism is necessary for salvation.
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
Yes and no. Yes, if you truly try to follow Christ you will want to be baptised but no, if you don't manage to do so it doesn't mean that you're damned. It's an obligation, in other words, that is binding on humans, not on God. That's the reason that a catechumen (who is clearly intending to be baptised) is given an Orthodox funeral if they die. No other unbaptised person can be. It's also why the Church has always considered those who were martyred before having the opportunity to be baptised as being baptised by blood.
James
James
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
michel said:I voted 'no', and managed to find something to back up my answer!
http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Mark-16-16.html (an excerpt)
You're going to have to do a whole lot better than that to convince me. Do you seriously give more weight to that disclaimer that to Jesus' own words?
I can just see it now. Michel's standing before God to be judged and God says, "Were you baptized?" Michel answers, "Well, no." God says, "Why not. That's a requirement, you know. I thought I made that pretty clear." Michael says, "Well, here... I managed to find something to back up my answer."
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Buttercup
Veteran Member
I agree with James on this issue and debated it with Aqualung a few months ago. The water does not save you.....your belief in and obedience to Christ does. I used the illustration of the thief on the cross as an example of zero bible text claiming him to be baptized yet Jesus tells him he will be in paradise with him that day.....Baptism is recommeded but not the ingredient that saves you.....JamesThePersian said:
"Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:39-43)
fromthe heart
Well-Known Member
You will not go to hell for the lack of baptism...baptism is an outward sign of an inward commitment in your life...I believe that once you have received salvation you should be baptised because it shows obedience to God as stated in the Bible.
The idea that Baptsim is not necessary cannot be found in any of the writings of any of the Church Fathers from before the Nicean period. It is a commandment from the Bible, and yet we sit here and argue, "Yeah, it's a commandment, but it doesn't specifically say we'll be condemned if we don't, so we can't be held responsible!!"
Baptism is for the remission of sins. Jesus was perfect, and yet He required baptism. How is it that someone who believes in His divinity can say, "Well, yeah, He had to be baptized, but I don't." Was He given extra commandments that don't apply to us?
Do you really think you merit salvation if you use grammatical loopholes to wriggle out of ordinances?
So the people who get baptized just get a better seat in Heaven? Does God say, "Hey, thanks for doin' that. You didn't have to, but it sure reduces paperwork"?
I think it's pretty simple: Unless a man is born of the water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Baptism is for the remission of sins. Jesus was perfect, and yet He required baptism. How is it that someone who believes in His divinity can say, "Well, yeah, He had to be baptized, but I don't." Was He given extra commandments that don't apply to us?
Do you really think you merit salvation if you use grammatical loopholes to wriggle out of ordinances?
So the people who get baptized just get a better seat in Heaven? Does God say, "Hey, thanks for doin' that. You didn't have to, but it sure reduces paperwork"?
I think it's pretty simple: Unless a man is born of the water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Nobody's saying that the water saves you. But Jesus Christ himself said that baptism is required for entrance into the Kingdom of God. How do you get around that? How do you just say that it's "recommended"? It's either a requirement or it's not, and Jesus said it is.Buttercup said:
Just out of curiosity, can you be sure that the thief on the cross had not been baptized? Do you think you might find any baptized Christians on death row today? Jesus did tell Him that He'd see him in Paradise that very day, but that is not the same thing as telling Him that he wouldn't need to receive the ordinance of baptism before entering in the Kingdom of Heaven.
waacman
Restoration of everything
I would say no, but it is an act of identification with Christ that a new Christian would want to do. Baptism isn't nessessary a "Christian" thing. Lots of other religions in the middle east and surrounding areas practiced it. It was more a statement that the person getting the baptism was identifying with that leader. It actually meant something to not only to the people who were in the group, but to the public watching as well, a sort of outside accountibility because you made this commiment. Nowadays though, we've lost this meaning.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
Pertaining to water baptism...it's been tradition to water baptize and I think Christians should be water baptized as a symbol of their commitment to Christ but I don't necessarily think that this type of baptism is what Christ was referring to in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I believe as is stated below.
All that I'm quoting is being taken from a book by Kenneth E. Hagin entitled The New Birth.
All biblical quotations are taken from the KJV.
I believe as is stated below.
All that I'm quoting is being taken from a book by Kenneth E. Hagin entitled The New Birth.
All biblical quotations are taken from the KJV.
BUDDY
User of Aspercreme
In 1 Peter 3:21, the inspired writer declares, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".
Buttercup
Veteran Member
For clairfication....I would like to know from Becky what she means by "necessary". Are you meaning that baptism is necessary for salvation? Or necessary as a follower of Christ?beckysoup61 said:
I've asked this question before of LDS......If I were to accept Christ today as my Lord and Saviour and died tonight without being baptised would I go straight to be with Jesus in Paradise? LDS will say no. Not unless I was baptised.
After being a Christian for many years my thoughts on the subject of baptism is that as a follower of Christ we should get baptised as an outward proclamation of our love and obedience to him. If we die before the baptism can take place....we still go to be with the Lord.
Sorry, bu that's all I'll say on the subject as I've discussed it before on RF and don't really like rehashing the same subjects. Everyone knows my stance on it anyway and I doubt I'd change anyone's mind.
FFH
Veteran Member
Just as the thief on the cross entered into paradise without baptism, so will many enter into paradise, if they meet the same requirements.
Accepting Jesus Christ as the Messiah is a major requirement for entering into paradise, which was evident with the thief's recognition of Jesus as the Messiah, however, to enter into God's kingdom, one must eventually accept baptism, and all other necessary principles and ordinances required for salvation and exaltation in that kingdom.
Paradise is not a permanent residence, but is where we are given a chance to learn more of God's principles and ordinances necessary for salvation and exaltation. We will then be required to accept or reject these principles and ordinances, if we didn't have a proper chance to accept them on earth.
The degree to which we accept these principles and ordinances, will determine which kingdom and reward we are given.
This is why LDS members perform all the necessary saving ordinance for those who have crossed over into this realm. We make it possible for many to accept baptism, and all other necessary principles and ordinances required for salvation and exaltation, after death.
Accepting Jesus Christ as the Messiah is a major requirement for entering into paradise, which was evident with the thief's recognition of Jesus as the Messiah, however, to enter into God's kingdom, one must eventually accept baptism, and all other necessary principles and ordinances required for salvation and exaltation in that kingdom.
Paradise is not a permanent residence, but is where we are given a chance to learn more of God's principles and ordinances necessary for salvation and exaltation. We will then be required to accept or reject these principles and ordinances, if we didn't have a proper chance to accept them on earth.
The degree to which we accept these principles and ordinances, will determine which kingdom and reward we are given.
This is why LDS members perform all the necessary saving ordinance for those who have crossed over into this realm. We make it possible for many to accept baptism, and all other necessary principles and ordinances required for salvation and exaltation, after death.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
First of all, Jesus isn't in Paradise now. He's in Heaven, where He sits on the right hand of His Father. Second, I'm pretty sure no Latter-day Saint would ever tell you that you would not go to Paradise if you were to die without being baptized, because that's not what we believe. Has a Latter-day Saint actually said that to you? I can only speak for myself, but I am absolutely convinced that you, Buttercup, would most definitely go to Paradise where you would await the resurrection of your physical body. I'm pretty sure that Becky and every other Latter-day Saint on RF would share my opinion.Buttercup said:
I'm really sorry you feel that way, Buttercup. Most of us have voiced our opinions on this and other subjects on many occasions here on RF, and whenever we do, it encourages other people to think about their opinions. I'd really like to explore this topic further, but if you don't want to, I'll respect that.Sorry, bu that's all I'll say on the subject as I've discussed it before on RF and don't really like rehashing the same subjects. Everyone knows my stance on it anyway and I doubt I'd change anyone's mind.
FFH
Veteran Member
Jesus will accept all who accept Him, and are repentant, as was evident with the thief on the cross.Buttercup said:
Because the LDS church performs vicarious baptisms for the dead, a chance will be provided to accept baptism, after death, for those who would've accepted it on earth, had they been given a proper understanding, and chance, of receiving this necessary ordinance.
Proper rewards will be given to the degree in which we accept or reject God's principles and ordinances of the gospel.
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
What do you guys think about the idea that Jesus was a Nazarite?Katzpur said:
Typically those who were not lifelong Nazarites ended their vow with immersion in water.
Jesus, not being the typical Jew, may not have been the typical Nararite and may have chosen the Baptist to end his vow in the Jordan.
Also, it is said that where John baptised with water, Jesus will baptise with the fire of the Holy Spirit - maybe this renders water baptism obsolete? What are your views on this?