Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?

shmogie · Mar 28, 2017

Uh, it was fulfilled because the entire covenant ( called the Torah, books of the law) was fulfilled. Go back to Genesis. God wanted to relate to Israel directly, they were afraid, and the law resulted. Quid pro quo means, literally, "this for that". The agreement was they would keep the law, and in return God would guide, empower, and support them. Of course God decided that the temporary law was fulfilled by a better one, Christ. The atonement system in the Torah was pointing to this, and Israel was promised a Messiah. He came, the covenant was fulfilled and another took it's place. Read carefully. If I have a contract to supply 100,000 widgets, and I do, and am paid, the contract is fulfilled, it has no more power on either party, it has done what was required, both parties have met their obligation. If you don't think Israel ( the covenant was with Israel, not "man") was consulted, then again, go back to Genesis to learn otherwise. Israel was told that a new and better Covenant would come, and Christ was it, as he said. Now you may not like it, or agree with it, but that is the way it is. You have a right to believe whatever you choose

oldbadger · Mar 28, 2017

Hawkins said:
No law is dropped. The Law we are talking about usually refers to the Mosaic Law which comes which a covenant signing off for the Jews. The covenant covers only the Jews who usually do circumcision on the 8th day of birth. They won't apply to gentiles. However, covenants may have a set of core commandments applicable to all covenants alike.

Hi....
There are circa 96 laws relating to scarifices. Do you want to drop them?
Do you want to drop the food preparation laws?
Do you want to drop the clothing laws?
And it goes on. ...............
Many Christians claim that the whole lot are dumped, with some laws re-elected in the new covenant.

It's not my fault..... I'm a pagan!

Matthew 19:18-19 (NIV2011)
18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Here Jesus doesn't mean to skip the Sabbath. The verses mean to say that the named commandments are still valid in the New Covenant.

Well..... you say that, but Paul says otherwise:-
Christians can choose their own sabbath day (ROMANS 14:5-7; COLOSSIANS 2:14-17)
Nobody may judge Christians over sabbath days (COLOSSIANS 2:14-17; ROMANS 14:5-7)

Practically however, early Christians still practice certain Jewish customs due to the fact that especially in the Palestine area, Christians are a mixture of Jews and gentiles. .............

Yes, but elsewhere in the World Christians cling to a totally differing list of laws.

MHz · Mar 30, 2017

The 10 Commandments didn't change at all. The other laws were put into place for Jesus to follow. Jews don't even follow them anymore as far as anybody being stoned to death for breaking one of the 600+ laws.
The kosher food thing makes Jews a lot of money every year rather than it being a religious requirement.

RabbiO · Mar 30, 2017

MHz said:
The kosher food thing makes Jews a lot of money every year rather than it being a religious requirement.

pearl · Apr 7, 2017

MHz said:
The 10 Commandments didn't change at all. The other laws were put into place for Jesus to follow. Jews don't even follow them anymore as far as anybody being stoned to death for breaking one of the 600+ laws.
The kosher food thing makes Jews a lot of money every year rather than it being a religious requirement.

Christians follow the Torah of the Messiah.

shmogie · Apr 7, 2017

pcarl said:
Christians follow the Torah of the Messiah.

Actually, no. The Torah was a Covenant between God and Israel. This Covenant was fulfilled by Christ, and Christians are under the new or second Covenant. Like with Abraham long before the Torah, righteousness is achieved by faith, not by keeping laws. Nevertheless, in the NT are very clear definitions of right and wrong, not to become right with God, but because you are right with God. This referred to in the NT as the law of Christ, or the royal law, never the Torah.

pearl · Apr 8, 2017

shmogie said:
The Torah was a Covenant between God and Israel.

The Torah of the Messiah is found in Mt, 'You have heard that is was said.....But I say to you..." Paul refers to the law of Christ. Does not the Torah refer to the 'law of Moses'?

shmogie said:
This Covenant was fulfilled by Christ

A term not to be understood too simply. "
The notion of fulfillment is an extremely complex one, one that could easily be distorted if there is a unilateral insistence either on continuity or discontinuity. Christian faith recognizes the fulfillment, in Christ, of the Scriptures and the hopes of Israel, but it does not understand this fulfillment as a literal one. Such a conception would be reductionist. In reality, in the mystery of Christ crucified and risen, fulfillment is brought about in a manner unforeseen. It includes transcendence. Jesus is not confined to playing an already fixed role — that of Messiah — but he confers, on the notions of Messiah and salvation, a fullness which could not have been imagined in advance; he fills them with a new reality; one can even speak in this connection of a "new creation" It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the texts, including those which later were read as messianic prophecies, already had an immediate import and meaning for their contemporaries before attaining a fuller meaning for future hearers. The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original.

What has already been accomplished in Christ must yet be accomplished in us and in the world. The definitive fulfillment will be at the end with the resurrection of the dead, a new heaven and a new earth. Jewish messianic expectation is not in vain. It can become for us Christians a powerful stimulant to keep alive the eschatological dimension of our faith. Like them, we too live in expectation. The difference is that for us the One who is to come will have the traits of the Jesus who has already come and is already present and active among us."

I'm sure there are various Christian views, this is the Catholic view.

shmogie · Apr 8, 2017

pcarl said:
The Torah of the Messiah is found in Mt, 'You have heard that is was said.....But I say to you..." Paul refers to the law of Christ. Does not the Torah refer to the 'law of Moses'?

A term not to be understood too simply. "
The notion of fulfillment is an extremely complex one, one that could easily be distorted if there is a unilateral insistence either on continuity or discontinuity. Christian faith recognizes the fulfillment, in Christ, of the Scriptures and the hopes of Israel, but it does not understand this fulfillment as a literal one. Such a conception would be reductionist. In reality, in the mystery of Christ crucified and risen, fulfillment is brought about in a manner unforeseen. It includes transcendence. Jesus is not confined to playing an already fixed role — that of Messiah — but he confers, on the notions of Messiah and salvation, a fullness which could not have been imagined in advance; he fills them with a new reality; one can even speak in this connection of a "new creation" It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the texts, including those which later were read as messianic prophecies, already had an immediate import and meaning for their contemporaries before attaining a fuller meaning for future hearers. The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original.

What has already been accomplished in Christ must yet be accomplished in us and in the world. The definitive fulfillment will be at the end with the resurrection of the dead, a new heaven and a new earth. Jewish messianic expectation is not in vain. It can become for us Christians a powerful stimulant to keep alive the eschatological dimension of our faith. Like them, we too live in expectation. The difference is that for us the One who is to come will have the traits of the Jesus who has already come and is already present and active among us."

I'm sure there are various Christian views, this is the Catholic view.

I appreciate this post, and find much to agree with. However, being a Protestant, my view, is of course is different. I must reiterate that under the first Covenant, salvation was by obeying a comprehensive set of laws, under the second, it is by faith. Faith in what ? Faith that in your place, as your substitute, Christ keep the law perfectly, fulfilled it. His perfect life is imputed to you, his death for your sin is imputed to you, and his Resurrection is proof of what will occur to you, by faith, not by anything you can do, but by everything Christ has done. This is the freedom of the Gospel. It was done 2,000 years ago at the cross, and it is complete and irreversible.

pearl · Apr 9, 2017

shmogie said:
However, being a Protestant, my view, is of course is different.

Yes, but what we share in common is greater, I think, than what divides us. Jesus' commandment/law was one of love, to love God and our neighbor. When the great Hillel was asked to recite the Torah he responded by offering the Golden Rule, and stated 'the rest is commentary'. If our faith in Christ is true, would you not agree that it governs our actions?

shmogie · Apr 9, 2017

pcarl said:
Yes, but what we share in common is greater, I think, than what divides us. Jesus' commandment/law was one of love, to love God and our neighbor. When the great Hillel was asked to recite the Torah he responded by offering the Golden Rule, and stated 'the rest is commentary'. If our faith in Christ is true, would you not agree that it governs our actions?

Yes, I agree totally

omega2xx · Apr 18, 2017

oldbadger said:
Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?
How were some O.T. laws dropped, and others kept?
A few Christians can be self-righteously judgemental about the lives, feelings, cultures, sexualities and beliefs of others.
Exactly what laws are within the New-Covenant, and which others 'repealed'?

WE need to obey the moral laws. We do not need to obey the ceremonial laws, the sacrificial laws or the dietary laws.

shmogie · Apr 18, 2017

omega2xx said:
WE need to obey the moral laws. We do not need to obey the ceremonial laws, the sacrificial laws or the dietary laws.

Why do you differentiate ? To Moses and Israel, they were all the same law.

oldbadger · Apr 18, 2017

omega2xx said:
WE need to obey the moral laws. We do not need to obey the ceremonial laws, the sacrificial laws or the dietary laws.

Can we have chapter and verse for that, please?
The New Covenant includes the laws, including moral laws, for the new dispensation.

oldbadger · Apr 18, 2017

Kemosloby said:
They weren't exactly repealed, they still exist but not as a written code. Keep what you think you should keep and practice what you preach.

But some Christians push Old Covenant laws at other folks.
There is a New Covenant, surely?

Kemosloby · Apr 18, 2017

oldbadger said:
But some Christians push Old Covenant laws at other folks.
There is a New Covenant, surely?

The new covenant seems to be to not let keeping the Old covenant law prevent you from doing good. It all seems to boil down to what God told Cain. "If you do well shouldn't you be rewarded?". So the new covenant is to do good so that you receive your reward in heaven.

Some people seem to think hearing old testament laws is having it pushed on them. Their ears can't stand it, it's unavoidable. Because the law is good for teaching purposes.

shmogie · Apr 18, 2017

Kemosloby said:
The new covenant seems to be to not let keeping the Old covenant law prevent you from doing good. It all seems to boil down to what God told Cain. "If you do well shouldn't you be rewarded?". So the new covenant is to do good so that you receive your reward in heaven.

Some people seem to think hearing old testament laws is having it pushed on them. Their ears can't stand it, it's unavoidable. Because the law is good p the lawfor teaching purposes.

Sorry, but wrong. Abraham, long before the law was declared righteous by faith, not by what he did. Israel existed purely by faith for centuries before Sinai, and in the Exodus were with God. Only after Sinai, when they essentially wanted rules, did God separate himself from them forbidding any to step on the mountain. Knowing they could NEVER keep the rules, he provided a way of atonement and forgiveness for them that was temporary. The law was fulfilled by Christ, and as it was and was supposed to be, salvation isn't gained by what you do, but by your faith. The first Covenant was between Israel and God, the second is between God and mankind

omega2xx · Apr 18, 2017

shmogie said:
Why do you differentiate ? To Moses and Israel, they were all the same law.

since there are no priest today who can trace the linage back to Aaron, so the ceremonial laws can't be kept Biblically. Also Jesus fulfilled those laws. God repealed the dietary laws(Acts 10:9-16).

Jesus basically eliminate them also---Mark 7:18-19

omega2xx · Apr 18, 2017

oldbadger said:
Can we have chapter and verse for that, please?
The New Covenant includes the laws, including moral laws, for the new dispensation.

Since there are no priest today who can trace the linage back to Aaron, the ceremonial laws and the sacrificail laws can't be performed as described in the Bible.

God eliminated the dietary laws(Acts 10:9-16)

Jesus eliminated them also(Mark 7:18-19).

shmogie · Apr 18, 2017

omega2xx said:
since there are no priest today who can trace the linage back to Aaron, so the ceremonial laws can't be kept Biblically. Also Jesus fulfilled those laws. God repealed the dietary laws(Acts 10:9-16).

Jesus basically eliminate them also---Mark 7:18-19

There are many "health laws" not related to food, should those be kept ? How about the sabbath, should that be kept, even though God said it was specifically a sign of the Covenant between he and Israel ?

Kemosloby · Apr 18, 2017

shmogie said:
Sorry, but wrong. Abraham, long before the law was declared righteous by faith, not by what he did. Israel existed purely by faith for centuries before Sinai, and in the Exodus were with God. Only after Sinai, when they essentially wanted rules, did God separate himself from them forbidding any to step on the mountain. Knowing they could NEVER keep the rules, he provided a way of atonement and forgiveness for them that was temporary. The law was fulfilled by Christ, and as it was and was supposed to be, salvation isn't gained by what you do, but by your faith. The first Covenant was between Israel and God, the second is between God and mankind

It says you have to follow Jesus. By faith Abraham did what God wanted him to do, even though there were no laws. But now that there are laws you can have a pretty good idea if you're not following Jesus, if you don't already know. But not by any hard fast set of rules. Sort of like Children have a clue about right or wrong without a hardfast set of rules, just a few reminders by their parents. "you must be like little children"

Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?

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