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What is wrong with smashing the idols?

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Yes, I know that you have exaggerated it. Muhammad was never tortured.

Yes, Muhammad and his followers were being persecuted and forced to leave Mecca.

But I think that the persecution ONLY STARTED when Muhammad began preaching and telling his followers to start destroying idols at Kaaba.

Preach people to destroy another person's or other people's religion is a "threat".

So it was Muhammad himself who started this trouble in the first place.

In the early stage of his preaching, Muhammad didn't threaten pagans' religion, so Muhammad was only mocked, not harmed or persecuted. At this stage, Muhammad was harmless so the pagans didn't stop him from preaching and they didn't stop Muhammad's followers from converting.

Muhammad only became a threat, when the tone of preaching had changed to, e.g. telling his converts to destroy idols at Kaaba. This is when trouble started. This is when Muhammad became the troublemaker.

The pagans were only reacting to his preaching of destroying their religion. So Muhammad was really the cause of his own persecution; he was the one who started threatening the pagans, first.

You cannot possibly threaten a person's way of life, and expect that person not to react to a threat.

The Kaaba was a public place of worship, so no one really personally owned the Kaaba. Muhammad don't have private ownership of Kaaba, so for Muhammad to threaten to destroy idols that pagans have being worshipping their for generations, the pagans began to see him as a threat.

Yes, the pagans persecuted Muhammad, but only because Muhammad had threatened them first.
1."But I think that the persecution ONLY STARTED when Muhammad began preaching and telling his followers to start destroying idols at Kaaba"
2."Muhammad only became a threat, when the tone of preaching had changed to, e.g. telling his converts to destroy idols at Kaaba. "


That never happened. Muhammad just forbade the Meccans to worship idols and gave reasonable arguments for that, still valid today. He never told them that he himself will destroy the idols in Kaaba. Did he ever? Please
Anybody to quote Quran in this respect, please.
Regards
 

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
1."But I think that the persecution ONLY STARTED when Muhammad began preaching and telling his followers to start destroying idols at Kaaba"
2."Muhammad only became a threat, when the tone of preaching had changed to, e.g. telling his converts to destroy idols at Kaaba. "


That never happened. Muhammad just forbade the Meccans to worship idols and gave reasonable arguments for that, still valid today. He never told them that he himself will destroy the idols in Kaaba. Did he ever? Please
Anybody to quote Quran in this respect, please.
Regards

Does Quran say how many wives Muhammad had?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
1."But I think that the persecution ONLY STARTED when Muhammad began preaching and telling his followers to start destroying idols at Kaaba"
2."Muhammad only became a threat, when the tone of preaching had changed to, e.g. telling his converts to destroy idols at Kaaba. "


That never happened. Muhammad just forbade the Meccans to worship idols and gave reasonable arguments for that, still valid today. He never told them that he himself will destroy the idols in Kaaba. Did he ever? Please
Anybody to quote Quran in this respect, please.

Sorry, but I have to repeat this again.

The Qur'an is not a history book.

A lot of things mentioned, provide no dates, therefore no ways to verify, and a lot of materials that cannot be verified, even those that alluded to Muhammad's own life. And even when it does say something about the events about Muhammad's life, the Qur'an don't indicate at what age Muhammad were when they happened. So the Qur'an is not reliable sources.

Even more materials about Muhammad's life are found in traditions, that were later recorded in the various hadiths and as well pieced together by early biographers and historians, and they are not that reliable too, because they are based on traditions.

I have never found traditions (I am not just talking about Islamic traditions, but traditions "in general") to be reliable, because they are often embellished, distorted.

But they are all we have, so you would have to use any and all available sources (Qur'an, traditions, hadiths, biographies and histories) to piece together, and hoped that we can find the history of real Muhammad.

And that's no easy task.

My point is that the Qur'an won't tell us everything about Muhammad, therefore relying on history.

The two main early and extant works about Muhammad, meaning history or biography of Muhammad, are:

Ibn Hisham (died 833);
As-Sirah an-Nabawiyyah, "The Life Of The Prophet".​

Al-Tabari (839 - 923);
Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk, "History of the Prophets and Kings" (also known as Tarikh al-Tabari)
Tahdhib al-Athar (hadith)​

Both works are based mostly on the copies made by students of Ibn Ishaq (704 - 767), the earliest biographer of Muhammad. Only fragments of recensions survived; Ibn Ishaq's own original work is lost. But most of it can be found in Ibn Hisham's and Al-Tabari's works.

Anyway, concerning about Muhammad and the idols.

  • Destroying idols in Mecca is found in Sahih-Bukhari (hadith), Book 43:658
  • About the frescoes of Jesus and his mother Mary, Ibn Ishaq (translated by Alfred Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, page 552).
  • Destroying other temples in eastern Arabia:
    • in Sahih Bukhari Book 59:641,
    • and in Hisham Ibn Al-Kalbi – The Book of Idols (translated by Nabih Amin Faris. Princeton University Press, pg. 21–22).
Whether Muhammad did it himself or his followers did under his orders, Muhammad is responsible for the idols destruction.

And when Muhammad's army attacked Ta'if, in 630, he refused to accept any term of surrender from the townspeople unless they convert, meaning they were forced to give up their pagan religion under the threat f massacre or mass slavery.

This was revenge for Ta'if refusing to give Muhammad refuge in 622. This not only showed Muhammad's vindictive pettiness, but him being a hypocrite because he ignored the "no compulsion" rule.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Sorry, but I have to repeat this again.

The Qur'an is not a history book.

A lot of things mentioned, provide no dates, therefore no ways to verify, and a lot of materials that cannot be verified, even those that alluded to Muhammad's own life. And even when it does say something about the events about Muhammad's life, the Qur'an don't indicate at what age Muhammad were when they happened. So the Qur'an is not reliable sources.

Even more materials about Muhammad's life are found in traditions, that were later recorded in the various hadiths and as well pieced together by early biographers and historians, and they are not that reliable too, because they are based on traditions.

I have never found traditions (I am not just talking about Islamic traditions, but traditions "in general") to be reliable, because they are often embellished, distorted.

But they are all we have, so you would have to use any and all available sources (Qur'an, traditions, hadiths, biographies and histories) to piece together, and hoped that we can find the history of real Muhammad.

And that's no easy task.

My point is that the Qur'an won't tell us everything about Muhammad, therefore relying on history.

The two main early and extant works about Muhammad, meaning history or biography of Muhammad, are:

Ibn Hisham (died 833);
As-Sirah an-Nabawiyyah, "The Life Of The Prophet".​
Al-Tabari (839 - 923);
Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk, "History of the Prophets and Kings" (also known as Tarikh al-Tabari)
Tahdhib al-Athar (hadith)​

Both works are based mostly on the copies made by students of Ibn Ishaq (704 - 767), the earliest biographer of Muhammad. Only fragments of recensions survived; Ibn Ishaq's own original work is lost. But most of it can be found in Ibn Hisham's and Al-Tabari's works.

Anyway, concerning about Muhammad and the idols.

  • Destroying idols in Mecca is found in Sahih-Bukhari (hadith), Book 43:658
  • About the frescoes of Jesus and his mother Mary, Ibn Ishaq (translated by Alfred Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, page 552).
  • Destroying other temples in eastern Arabia:
    • in Sahih Bukhari Book 59:641,
    • and in Hisham Ibn Al-Kalbi – The Book of Idols (translated by Nabih Amin Faris. Princeton University Press, pg. 21–22).
Whether Muhammad did it himself or his followers did under his orders, Muhammad is responsible for the idols destruction.

And when Muhammad's army attacked Ta'if, in 630, he refused to accept any term of surrender from the townspeople unless they convert, meaning they were forced to give up their pagan religion under the threat f massacre or mass slavery.

This was revenge for Ta'if refusing to give Muhammad refuge in 622. This not only showed Muhammad's vindictive pettiness, but him being a hypocrite because he ignored the "no compulsion" rule.
"The Qur'an is not a history book. "

And Quran doesn't claim it.
The topic is neither history nor historians, please. History never recorded every event happened in the past and neither history not historians claim to be 100% correct. Only Quran mentions events happened in the time of Muhammad.There is no other source. Please

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Yes, I know that you have exaggerated it. Muhammad was never tortured.



Yes, Muhammad and his followers were being persecuted and forced to leave Mecca.

But I think that the persecution ONLY STARTED when Muhammad began preaching and telling his followers to start destroying idols at Kaaba.

Preach people to destroy another person's or other people's religion is a "threat".

So it was Muhammad himself who started this trouble in the first place.

In the early stage of his preaching, Muhammad didn't threaten pagans' religion, so Muhammad was only mocked, not harmed or persecuted. At this stage, Muhammad was harmless so the pagans didn't stop him from preaching and they didn't stop Muhammad's followers from converting.

Muhammad only became a threat, when the tone of preaching had changed to, e.g. telling his converts to destroy idols at Kaaba. This is when trouble started. This is when Muhammad became the troublemaker.

The pagans were only reacting to his preaching of destroying their religion. So Muhammad was really the cause of his own persecution; he was the one who started threatening the pagans, first.

You cannot possibly threaten a person's way of life, and expect that person not to react to a threat.

The Kaaba was a public place of worship, so no one really personally owned the Kaaba. Muhammad don't have private ownership of Kaaba, so for Muhammad to threaten to destroy idols that pagans have being worshipping their for generations, the pagans began to see him as a threat.

Yes, the pagans persecuted Muhammad, but only because Muhammad had threatened them first.
"Muhammad had threatened them first"

Muhammad threatened nobody, he expressed his own belief that differed with them. Why should one deny the human rights of freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc to Muhammad? The Meccans realized the unreasonableness of their faith in idols, while they themselves believed in God.It was a peaceful proclamation of faith/religion by Muhammad with reasonable arguments. Please
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
"Muhammad had threatened them first"

Muhammad threatened nobody, he expressed his own belief that differed with them. Why should one deny the human rights of freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc to Muhammad? The Meccans realized the unreasonableness of their faith in idols, while they themselves believed in God.It was a peaceful proclamation of faith/religion by Muhammad with reasonable arguments. Please
Regards
To add more:
Muhammad was the forerunner of some of the present era Human Rights, namely:
  • Right to life
  • Freedom of speech
  • Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
So, he threatened nobody first ever.
Please make corrections in one's post.
Regards
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
To add more:
Muhammad was the forerunner of some of the present era Human Rights, namely:
  • Right to life
Unless you were a poet who mocked him or a Muslim who realised what a mistake Islam was and left. Also the Banu Qayunqa tribe in Medina who were exiled from the city for killing a Muslim in retaliation for murdering a Jew. So I guess Muhammad thought exiling a city's inhabitants and seizing their property was an acceptable thing to do after all.


  • Freedom of speech

A right that he denied to others the first opportunity he got. The


  • Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

Don't make me laugh. On his orders Muslims instituted a theocracy, banned other beliefs, co-opted Pagan temples for his own religion, banned non-Muslims from Mecca etc


So, he threatened nobody first ever.

Please quote from Quran where it says Muhammad threatened nobody first ever.

Please stop revising history. Do you honestly expect us to believe Muhammad spread Islam by being a victim all across Arabia? It doesn't convince anyone outside the echo chamber of Islam.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Muhammad proclaimed his prophet-hood in Mecca, a simple proclamation on oneness of God and that he was a prophet of God, he threatened nobody, yet he was and or his followers were persecuted by Meccans and was denied freedom of speech, freedom of thought, conscience and religion the basic human rights.
I am not a Historian and writing no-history. Please
Regards
 

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
I am not a Historian and writing no-history. Please
Regards

Aren't you proclaiming that Muhammad took the statues out of the Kaaba and gave back to people to worship them? You are also trying to say that Muhammad never send soldiers across Arabia to destroy the other idols that people were worshiping. You are clearly trying to rewrite the history books.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Trouble? It was the pagans who caused all the trouble. They were the ones who deceived others into believing that one should bring offerings to an idol.
So I would be able to go to the local Islamic Center and start preaching that they're deceiving others into worshiping a book, and I wouldn't be guilty of causing trouble, yes? And then when I burn all the Qurans - and maybe even the building - I can say that truth prevailed and falsehood vanished?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Aren't you proclaiming that Muhammad took the statues out of the Kaaba and gave back to people to worship them? You are also trying to say that Muhammad never send soldiers across Arabia to destroy the other idols that people were worshiping. You are clearly trying to rewrite the history books.

I never said that. Please don't attribute things to me that I never said.
Please quote the post where I mentioned that.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Aren't you proclaiming that Muhammad took the statues out of the Kaaba and gave back to people to worship them? You are also trying to say that Muhammad never send soldiers across Arabia to destroy the other idols that people were worshiping. You are clearly trying to rewrite the history books.
Quran does not mention that, if it does, please quote from Quran.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
What is wrong with smashing the idols?

Muhammad admonished calling abusive words against the idols, he just restricted himself and his followers to giving reasonable arguments against worship of the idols. Muhammad needed not to demolish idols physically.
Quran verse [6:109]:

[6:107] Follow that which has been revealed to thee from thy Lord; there is no God but He; and turn aside from the idolaters.
[6:108] And if Allah had enforced His will, they would not have set up gods with Him. And We have not made thee a keeper over them nor art thou over them a guardian.
[6:109] And revile not those whom they call upon beside Allah, lest they, out of spite, revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus unto every people have We caused their doing to seem fair. Then unto their Lord is their return; and He will inform them of what they used to do.


Please
Regards
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
What is wrong with smashing the idols? I have smashed one and then trashed it, also I once throw the cross away. Have you ever smashed an idol?

Prophet Abraham once said to his father Azar: "Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error."
What is wrong with smashing the idols? I have smashed one and then trashed it, also I once throw the cross away. Have you ever smashed an idol?

Prophet Abraham once said to his father Azar: "Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error."

If it's your idol, you're welcome to do whatever you want with it. If the idol belongs to someone else then you have no right to do anything with it.
 

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
What is wrong with smashing the idols?

Muhammad admonished calling abusive words against the idols, he just restricted himself and his followers to giving reasonable arguments against worship of the idols. Muhammad needed not to demolish idols physically.
Quran verse [6:109]:

[6:107] Follow that which has been revealed to thee from thy Lord; there is no God but He; and turn aside from the idolaters.
[6:108] And if Allah had enforced His will, they would not have set up gods with Him. And We have not made thee a keeper over them nor art thou over them a guardian.
[6:109] And revile not those whom they call upon beside Allah, lest they, out of spite, revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus unto every people have We caused their doing to seem fair. Then unto their Lord is their return; and He will inform them of what they used to do.


Please
Regards

Where does it state that Muhammad never broke any idols?
 
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