How are these Great Beings explained?

The Ragin Pagan said:

I do. Vehemently. Because not all religions have "Promised Ones" that are foretold to come in prophecy. This is not a matter of opinion or belief but of fact, and the fact is that outside the "Boy's Club" that you recognize, the Baha'u'llah and all self-proclaimed prophets before him are no one but ordinary men with tall claims.


And yet just in this thread, you told another user that they didn't know enough about Baha'i to criticize it. Despite Baha'is criticizing and dismissing - actively or not - religions that they know nothing about. So evidently you, at least, are not welcome to scrutiny, nor has 55 pages of correction for factually and demonstrably false ideas and interpretations been able to change your mind; not that what is argued against is flawless, but fact and correction are met with "what if you're the one who's wrong?" Which is absolutely useless for progressive discussion. We could play "what if's" until Ragnarök comes and comes again.


From so far as can be told, there is not and will not be a "Baha'i World Oder" - for that very reason. Also as this is not the case, why even bother to mention that multicultural countries handle diversity well?


Frankly, I don't care to read it, but I'm sure either you or adrian will post it sooner or later. And I'm willing to bet that it's going to be so vague as to mean quite literally anything.

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I meant of the religions that do have prophecies of a Great One to come.

Sorry for not making that clearer. I'm fully aware there are some sects which do not believe in anything like that or even have no Holy Book.

I'm always willing to learn and accept it if I'm wrong.

"Demonstrably false ideas and interpretations"? A harsh judgement but it's your right to judge as you see fit.

I mentioned multiculturalism to point out the direction we are headed. It is not perfect yet as it is a system that excludes spirituality.

The prophecy is just an example of what might happen if racism is not brought under control.

loverofhumanity said:

I meant of the religions that do have prophecies of a Great One to come.

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Yes, I know you do. But you said all religions, and so there we are.

I mentioned multiculturalism to point out the direction we are headed.

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You specifically mentioned "multicultural nations", which we already have. And guess what? They don't work all that well. Yet you want to press on and expand that to the whole world - why? If it does not work small, going bigger will be an absolute catastrophe.

It is not perfect yet as it is a system that excludes spirituality.

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No, spirituality is included. Problem being that some religions don't like playing nice with others, and demand total recognition by all.

The prophecy is just an example of what might happen if racism is not brought under control.

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Then it's not a prophecy. Prophecies do not operate in "maybes". They are, and they will be. (Only they rarely ever come to pass).

CG Didymus said:

Here's a quote from the link you provided:

"The rebirth doctrine in Buddhism, sometimes referred to as reincarnation or metempsychosis, asserts that rebirth does not necessarily take place as another human being, but as an existence in one of the six Gati (realms) called Bhavachakra.[4] The six realms of rebirth include Deva (heavenly), Asura (demigod), Manusya (human), Tiryak (animals), Preta (ghosts), and Naraka (resident of hell)."

So what do you make of these beliefs? I personally think reincarnation is much more fair than other afterlife beliefs. It would give a soul a chance to literally "walk" in another person's shoes when reborn into a different body on the human level. Other than Baha'i Faith saying it's not true, what wrong with that?

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While it's true that Baha'is do not accept "reincarnation" .. We don't believe the soul "incarnates" in the first place. It is associated with the body but not part of it... We don't believe God is incarnated in the flesh as in the Christian doctrine of the incarnation.. We do believe the soul advances through the spiritual worlds of God.

The statement for instance :

Among the six realms, the human realm is considered to offer the best opportunity to practice the dharma.[12]

source:

Bhavacakra - Wikipedia

Is not necessarily opposed to our thinking as we believe our purpose in this life of the material plane is to reflect virtues and advance spiritually.

As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 151)

and

Thou hast, moreover, asked Me concerning the state of the soul after its separation from the body. Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly, return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved. By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue describe. The soul that hath remained faithful to the Cause of God, and stood unwaveringly firm in His Path shall, after his ascension, be possessed of such power that all the worlds which the Almighty hath created can benefit through him. Such a soul provideth, at the bidding of the Ideal King and Divine Educator, the pure leaven that leaveneth the world of being, and furnisheth the power through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 158)

The Ragin Pagan said:

Yes, I know you do. But you said all religions, and so there we are.


You specifically mentioned "multicultural nations", which we already have. And guess what? They don't work all that well. Yet you want to press on and expand that to the whole world - why? If it does not work small, going bigger will be an absolute catastrophe.


No, spirituality is included. Problem being that some religions don't like playing nice with others, and demand total recognition by all.


Then it's not a prophecy. Prophecies do not operate in "maybes". They are, and they will be. (Only they rarely ever come to pass).

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Thanks for being patient and understanding.

We believe that eventually there will be a world civilisation that will be both peaceful and prosperous. Multiculturalism is just a step along the way to something much better.

loverofhumanity said:

There is a prophecy about what will happen in America if the racial problem is not solved. I haven't posted it yet.

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America is a young country. Who makes this prophecy who has been born to know America even existed?

The fact that Bahaullah brings unity by incorporating selective faiths, putting himself as a prophecy of these faiths, and dictating that these founders present the same message when they don't means that Bahaullah is not a universal religion. If the goal is just unity, then you'd drop the interpretations of other people's faiths and just focus on the people rather than Bahaullah's teachings.

I say this because many religions that you have not included nor know about do not have in their teachings the bringing together of unity. The faith I practice doesn't promote the unity Bahaullah defines nor has any Bahai realize when unifying all fiaths mean all faiths not just selective leaders. That and Krishna isn't a main person of the Hindu faith.

So another thing that is different and doesn't bring unity from Bahaullah's teachings is the interpretations of other people's faiths.

If you take out these interpretations and focus on unity among the people you'd have no religion at all. You'd be more of an organization that helps for human peace. That is fine.

loverofhumanity said:

The teachings of Baha'u'llah teach not to discriminate against any race, religion or nationality. So what you are effectively saying is there can only be unity if you ignore racial, religious and national discrimination which is an impossibility.

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Every religion promotes this. What religion promotes racism and national discrimination based on their cultural norms? Who defines discrimination, actually when people all over the country may call normal what we call discrimination.

Unity has no founders. No guides. No one. Most religions may disagree-yours included-but you contradict each other in traditions, langage, and culture.

As a result, no, you'd have to take away the founders teachings Bahaullah, Christ, Muhmmad, in order to bring world peace. What you're doing is bringing world peace under a one-party stem.

Who is the authority of this system of we need a leader?

It cannot be Bahaullah, Christ, or Muhammad, or The Buddha for that matter.

Who?

loverofhumanity said:

If we ignore the teachings of Baha'u'llah it's impossible to have peace because His teachings are against all forms of discrimination and prejudice.

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Your teachings promote that each founder of selective religions predict the coming of Bahaullah. Your goals for world peace is not the problem (I keep repeating). You are literally putting other people's founders into your faith and reinterpreting it without the correct view of that particular faith. You are also bypassing and dropping tradition, language, and culture of various faiths as if these things bring is discord. You are also defining love for other religions with whom find love and define love in differently not by different names.

These are what you said and the Bahaullah scriptures you and the arthra quoted and what I got from the Bahai site.

You are doing the opposite of your goal:

Let's bring world peace among Hindu, Christian, and Muslim by helping with non descrimination? How, their founders have predicted the coming of Bahaullah that gave them spiritual knowledge and as educators and prophets they came at their time as Bahaullah came to day. What more is that because Bahaullah promotes world peace, of course other religious will agree with how Bahuallah and Bahai want to achieve it. If any religious disagree with us it is not the fault of the religion but the fault of the religious. Even if not said directly, we see the beautify of different religions but as I just said, it is in our belief that the founders did X when they did and are Y.

How in the world is this unity and peace?

loverofhumanity said:

You can have unity without referring directly to Baha'u'llah.

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Take out Bahaullah's teachings and just focus on peace of the people. Why have Bahaullah's teachings if they are no different than organizations that help world peace that aren't religious in nature?

Here is an example of not being in union with other religious and creating world peace.

loverofhumanity said:

“Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people. By their sanction and authority, every Prophet of God hath drunk from the chalice of sacrifice, and winged His flight unto the heights of glory. What unspeakable cruelties they that have occupied the seats of authority and learning have inflicted upon the true Monarchs of the world,”

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If you're adding christ in there, he is not a prophet like Moses and Muhammad. He is a son of god distinct of himself. This verse doesn't refer to christ himself but puts him a collection of a whole that scriptures do not do.

loverofhumanity said:

Christians will very unlikely obtain the truth about Baha'u'llah from internal sources. We are doing them a great service announcing to them that their Promised One has come.

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Wait, when I was Catholic, I did practically the same things you say Bahaullah promotes. The only differences, a severe one, is we all got these motivations and things from christ and his father only and no one else.

Let's turn this into something positive: Christian's will likely come to peace and unity with others when they can continue to learn about their own teachings, who they are in christ, and how they can help others in christ and no one else.

Again, you are calling followers wrong when they and their scripture knows more than you because one

1. They have already corrected you

2. We continue to say you misinterpret the Dharma of Hinduism, for example. Why not take that into consideration if you are building world peace among diversity?

3. Another example is there are many many promised ones in Buddhism. If you haven't read the suttras, The Buddha predicted many buddhas to come and protect the suttras and suttas when he is gone.

4. Not all religions have god in it. You must have a common foundation that everyone agrees and that foundation cannot have god in it.

loverofhumanity said:

I'm very glad the Bahá'í who told me about Baha'u'llah didn't refrain from doing so because it's the greatest gift I have received in my life. You only call it disrespect because you don't know its value.

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This isn't unity and peace among diversity. This is an insult.

I repeat, it has nothing to do with your goals. SGI (if you read their site) has the same goals as you they just have a jump start. Hindu do the same thing. Buddhist the same. Catholics the same.

The value of your religion has nothing to do with what you are doing to other religions to achieve that value.

Having love and peace is not bad

Interpreting founders of other religions incorrect of what the religion and religious say of it themselves is bad.

You have to have unity between the two.

and among the people you want unity with.

Without that, there is no peace.

loverofhumanity said:

You won't get true information about Baha'u'llah from Christians or previous religions because their leaders keep them from the truth.

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You gave me information from Bahaullah. Whether it is true or not depends on the religion. Not all religions believe in god. Not all if not all dont believe their founders predict the coming of Bahaullah. Most probablyl believe in world peace but like my diagram says, christians will honestly tell you you are wrong but they will still strive to help others. Minority religions will agree with each other based on like experiences but they will draw boundaries.

loverofhumanity said:

Would ye ask the Jews whether Jesus was the True One from God, or the idols if Muhammad was an Apostle of His Lord, or inquire from the people of the Qur’án as to Him Who was the Remembrance of God, the Most Exalted, the Most Great? -Baha'u'llah

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You're contradicting your point. Take out other founders of your religions. Don't interpret other religious founders as if they do and are something they are not.

Then you can follow this teaching. If you continue to say, for example, Krishna is a prophet or educator that predicted the coming of bahaullah and hindu and scripture are saying you are wrong, that is going completely against what you just quoted.

We are telling you Krishna is a god of himself and is an incarnation, why would you incorporate Krishna and not Vishnu?

What's more, Vishnu is a creator. There is more than one creator in Hinduism. You only have one.

You are changing their beliefs and others. Can't you see that?

@loverofhumanity

The foundation of your teaching comes from god.

1. Not every religion has god
2. Not every religion has god and defines god the same as you do (not by different names)

3. Most religions have traditions, languages, and culture that shape and define their god which makes it different than someone else's creator.

4. Religious founders do not predict the coming of Bahaullah. That's an insult to many religions whose sacred text and religious do not agree with you

5. Peace comes from mutual agreement between people so you have to take people's corrections into consideration if you want to build world peace

6. World peace is not based on one founder. So, why do you need Bahaullah if his words have nothing to do with religion?

I keep giving you questions Please answer them. Take your time because I keep saying the same thing, it's not your goals, it's whats in your religion and how it interprets others. I read what you guys quoted in Bahaullah's teachings. It is a complete insult of other faiths traditions, language, and teachings.

Carlita said:

America is a young country. Who makes this prophecy who has been born to know America even existed?

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Abdul-Bahá made it. He visited America. He also revealed a special prayer for America and said that America would establish world peace but would go through many tests first.

loverofhumanity said:

Abdul-Bahá'í made it. He visited America. He also revealed a special prayer for America and said that America would establish world peace but would go through many tests first.

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He's not the only one. Diasoku Ikeda did the same thing from Japan though he is still living. Many Buddhist have made peace-claims.

But that's not my point.

The Ragin Pagan said:

My whole point with this is that however long ago it happened, or whatever culture it was hosted in, the equality of the sexes is nothing new. Furthering my claim that Baha'i isn't really bringing anything new to the table. Even using mythology (which I think is hypocritical to criticize this, given that the bible (which is nothing more than mythology,) is often used to back up Abrahamic claims), the high role of women in ancient civilizations is plain to see. Add to this known historical figures such as Blenda, Lagertha, Aslaug, Brunhild, Boudica, Scathach, Helen, Andromache, Medea, and many others that I am likely forgetting, and the role that women had in society is quite hard to ignore.

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My whole point is that a global society that has democracy and the equality of women is something new. I have repeatedly accepted the obvious from history that we have had instances of democracy and relative gender equality. However these instances have been far from the norm.

- We have never had a global commonwealth.

- The equality of men and women as a prerequisite for world peace being universally established has never been established and promoted until recently.

- Democracy as the foundation of global decision making at all levels has never looked remotely like being established until recent times.

Its a question of degrees.

Of course the Baha'i Faith brings something new to the table as it is a world wide community that is established in practically every land, and stands in contrast to the religions of old, that have male dominated clergy and leaders. Our faith's democratically elected institutions are the basis of decision making locally, nationally, and internationally. They are well represented by women. How many Faith communities in Christianity have elected institutions governing them, where the individuals who are elected have no more authority outside assembly meetings than any other member?

We need less mythology in religion, not more because of how it contributes to widespread confusion and misunderstanding. We must be able to separate fact from fiction, and reality from mythology. How useful is it to believe that the world was literally created in six days six thousand years ago? Does it really assist us to believe in the story of Adam and Eve in the garden literally, Noah's ark and the flood, Jesus as God in the flesh, a physically resurrected Jesus, and an exclusive Christian salvation?

The evidence the 'high role' of women in ancient societies look tenuous other than unusual instances but I'm willing to look at it. Many women in Maori culture where I live are still prevented by their gender and culture from speaking at community meetings. I suspect that in a world that is complex, confusing, and troubled, its easy to look back and imagine that times were much better in ancient times. Rousseau and some of the Romantic era philosophers did this. The evidence to support their approach appears lacking.

The Ragin Pagan said:

I think it is also very fair criticism that for all the talk of equality in Baha'i, that you do not have women leaders is very telling. Words are wind, and actions speak much louder. Where are your women writers, spiritual leaders, elders? It's a fine idea to introduce so far back (though after the world had begun to empower women again), but an idea that falls flat when nothing is done about it.

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Women are leaders are present in most of our communities.

Bahá'í Faith and gender equality - Wikipedia

Considering the Baha'i Faith is established in many countries that are male dominated we have a relatively high proportions of women serving in leadership capacities globally.

The Greatness Which Might Be Theirs: The Status of Women in the Baha'i Community

Women have been a central part of our Faith from the earliest days:

Táhirih - Wikipedia

Bahiyyih Khánum - Wikipedia

Martha Root - Wikipedia

Marie of Romania - Wikipedia

Women are there in every capacity including writers.

List of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia

The Ragin Pagan said:

No, actually Scandinavian culture was/is my strongest argument. Sparta has just received more positive attention here.

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The Spartan women appeared to grow to prominence on account of so of many of the men going to war. It similar to the scenario in Europe during WWI.

The references to the Scandinavian women in your link were in foreign languages so I explored the Celts. Provide me with a link with references to primary sources to verify what you say about Scandinavian culture and I'll happily agree with you.

The Ragin Pagan said:

No, it really just shows that men like Aristotle wrote history in their favor, and that their manner of society was more favored by those in power.

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It shows also that even outstanding people such as Aristotle did not thing women being in power was a good idea. This was simply the norm throughout history that has been male dominated until relatively recently.

The Ragin Pagan said:

Do they perpetuate mythology or do they not? (An uneven accusation, at best.) It is not enough for you to dismiss it on "all likelihood." Those "other books" are the sources, adrian.

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We do need primary sources and that was the main point of my argument.

The Ragin Pagan said:

Then why bring up the Peace Index, and point to where my country ranks at all? My point with this is that you claim the posed Baha'i global government will be totally free from corruption. Yet from what we can see to this day, even the most peaceful and prosperous places on Earth are not free from corruption, even when they are as small as Iceland. Do you really think that corruption will be entirely wiped out when a government is expanded to all the globe, with all the nations acting under their own governments (somehow) and their own local interests?

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The point of the peace index is to encourage us all to look at the multifaceted components that make up peace. Our culture and nationhood does shape profoundly the way we see the world whether negatively or positively. Its important to think globally if we are to be effective agents of change in our community. We can learn so much from each other in this day.

Of course there will always be corruption, but like democracy and the equality of the sexes, it is an issue of degrees.

Carlita said:

@loverofhumanity

The foundation of your teaching comes from god.

1. Not every religion has god
2. Not every religion has god and defines god the same as you do (not by different names)

3. Most religions have traditions, languages, and culture that shape and define their god which makes it different than someone else's creator.

4. Religious founders do not predict the coming of Bahaullah. That's an insult to many religions whose sacred text and religious do not agree with you

5. Peace comes from mutual agreement between people so you have to take people's corrections into consideration if you want to build world peace

6. World peace is not based on one founder. So, why do you need Bahaullah if his words have nothing to do with religion?

I keep giving you questions Please answer them. Take your time because I keep saying the same thing, it's not your goals, it's whats in your religion and how it interprets others. I read what you guys quoted in Bahaullah's teachings. It is a complete insult of other faiths traditions, language, and teachings.

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If you can itemise questions like now it really helps me not to miss stuff. I'm trying to answer your questions here. If you think I misunderstood I'll try again. You're very patient and I think you're terrific putting up with me like you do. I'm far from perfect as you've discovered by now.

1. We believe in only one God and believe in religions that teach there is one God. We are told Buddha also taught about God so Buddhism is included. We do not include in our beliefs other religions that do not accept only one God.

2. We believe the essence of God is unknowable so anything we imagine to be God is only our imagination, not God. There are many views and definitions of God. We only include as religions in our beliefs, religions that teach one God with the exception of Buddhism which we are told originally taught about God.

3. Diversity is part of our humanity so people have different cultures, traditions and languages. More diversity more beauty.

4. Their collectively do prophesy Kalki Avatar, the Second Coming of Jesus, the Lord of Hosts, AmitAbha Buddha, the Mahdi and Shah Bahram. We believe these all refer to the same Great One to appear in the Last Days.

5. Yes mutual agreement is good. I'll agree as much as I can without compromising basic beliefs.

6. Why do we need Baha'u'llah is like asking why we need the sun.

If it were not for Bahaullah none of the previous Prophets would have appeared. We need Baha'u'llah because He is the point of why all the religions of the past were revealed. He is the Unifier.

The entire purpose of the Messengers of the past 6,000 years was the culmination of the Adamic Cycle which began with Adam and ended with Muhammad and the inauguration of the Age of Unity and when there will be a World Civilisation, when there will be One Common Faith and a World Federation. It will be a glorious age I'd Unity and peace never before witnessed in our bloodstained history.

The Baha'i Cycle began with the Bab and the Universal Manifestation is Baha'u'llah. A Universal Manifestation appears only once every 500,000 years. A Universal Manifestation inaugurates a new Cycle of human history. Not a new age or era but Cycle.

We have entered a new 'Cycle' which is to last 500,000 years. The incredible spike in science and technology, greater than a hundred centuries of the past, attests to the greatness of this Day. Most have no idea this was a direct result of this Revelation but think it just happened for no reason at all.

In this most mighty Revelation," He moreover states, "all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation." And again: "None among the Manifestations of old, except to a prescribed degree, hath ever completely apprehended the nature of this Revelation." Referring to His [Bahá'u'lláh's] own station He declares: "But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the Robe of Prophethood, nor would any of the sacred Scriptures have been revealed. (God Passes By)

Not Christ nor Krishna, not Buddha nor Muhammad nor Zoroaster or the Bab would have come nor would their Holy Books have been revealed if it were not for Baha'u'llah.

Their whole purpose in coming was to prepare humanity for this Day.

He comes with this mandate and authority.

Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise. - Baha'u'llah

God does not need permission from the human beings and religions He created to change or bring a new Teacher to the world.

Objections are noted but God is the One Who wants to change this world from the hell we made it into (i.e. world wars etc) into a world that will have justice and where tyrants and oppressors won't be in charge anymore.

God has given humanity over a century to make peace and all we've done is have two world wars and still are not putting humanity first so He is raising up another generation of people who will make peace. Most of the religions He entrusted to bring peace have become embroiled in wars and bloodshed so He has raised up another people to get the job done so I can't blame Him when we have billions of religious people yet no peace. Something is wrong.

And what God wants is what is best for us and I trust Him fully.

He's God and He will not do to us what we have done to ourselves as He loves us.

Carlita said:

Religions don't make people do these things. People do these things in the name of religion. Don't cure the religion. If you want to help people, help the people understand love and unity. If they find these things in their respective faiths, who gives you and any else the right to tell them otherwise?

If anything, trying to do so is contradicting the purpose of your religion.

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I believe that religion is one of the most potent, if not the most powerful force for changing people for better or worse. Religion has a profound affect on values and beliefs which in turn affect the relationships we have with each other, whether it be in our families, work place, friends, and communities.

The only way for change is to be that change and an example of something better. It also means seeing what is positive in all people and all faiths and walking alongside them. So I agree that walking alongside someone and then trying to 'cure' their religion is contradicting what we are about. Its about souls walking together and learning together. The one who is greatest is the one who is least.

Matthew 18:1-4

Carlita said:

Not all religions, say Pagan religions, are based on unity and love. That does not mean they cannot be in accord with other faiths. It means to respect how they view the world and how their foundations for what you call unity is different (not by the same name, but completely different in meaning, language, and culture). Not wrong. Not bad. It doesn't bring people a part unless religions like Bahai, Christianity, and so forth want to make others be like them. Christians believe in love and unity and want to bring everyone to christ to do so. Bahai has their views of bringing people into love and unity.

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If not love and unity then what are they based on? I ask the question to learn and understand.

The Baha'i faith is not about invading people's personal space, coercion, or manipulation. Its about the relationship we have with God and with each other. Baha'is are asked to extend our comfort zones so we are not just conversing with people like ourselves but very different as well. Love means genuinely likely people and seeing the positives, even when there appears to be none.

Carlita said:

Does any religious (not just you two) ask what makes the other person happy and not yourselves?

Even more so, strive, like bodhisattvas, help others by their own methods not by their own?

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The Baha'i Faith encourages us to be more concerned with the happiness of others than ourselves. That is called selflessness. To help others means to recognise the tools they have to help themselves as you say.

Carlita said:

Step back a minute.

Isn't this the exact thing you are doing as other religions do? Your goal for unity and peace doesn't exclude that you want your way and others want it theirs. If there is unity, there should be respect for the differences that are not under the same names. If you don't take the other party's claim into consideration as truth just as you understand it, that is not unity and that is not peace. That is going against what you want and it creates discord which is opposite of what your motto promotes.

You don't have to kill, steal, and be violent to keep the world from unity and peace

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Not at all.

If your religion works for you, then that is excellent. I'm interested to hear how your religion works for you if you want to tell me. We're two people having a conversation. What works for you may not work for me, as what works for me, may not work for you

To try and give everyone an idea about how we read Cycles as far as the history of religions is concerned.

II. PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

• A. ADAMIC CYCLE, CYCLE OF PROPHECY - lasted approximately 6,000 year

1. Adam 1. Indian religious figures
2. Noah - Krishna
3. Abraham
4. Moses 2. Zoroaster
5. Jesus 3. Buddha
6. Muhammad (Last Prophet of the Cycle of Prophecy)

• B. BAHA'I CYCLE, CYCLE OF FULFILLMENT - to last 500,000 years

1. The Bab
2. Bahá'u'lláh - Universal Manifestation for this Universal Cycle

I read everything you said. I dont believe in god so this is purely an objective point of view (and I can only go by what you all posts since you have many sacred text and academic articles)

Peace

1. Peace can only happen when everyone agrees with each other. Since your foundation is god, there can be no peace

2. Peace looks not only at similarities but does (i mean) try to compromise our differences of another persons religion.

Therefore, if you and I were to develop peace as you defined, I would either A. Have to believe in god or B. You do not believe in god. The common foundation in your faith is god. Without god, how can you relate to any religion you want to have peace with.

Goals

1. Your goals are fine. Im not saying they are wrong. Its about the other stuff.

loverofhumanity said:

1. We believe in only one God and believe in religions that teach there is one God. We are told Buddha also taught about God so Buddhism is included. We do not include in our beliefs other religions that do not accept only one God.

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1. Since Buddhism talks nothing about a creator, how can he be a part of your religion? Not from your perspective but from a buddhist.

2. Hinduism has more than one god. Vishnu is one of three creators. Krishna is a god too and incarnation. Your religion incorporates Krishna.

3. What I was interested in, Lukumi African religion has only one god/creator. There are other one-creator religions.

loverofhumanity said:

2. We believe the essence of God is unknowable so anything we imagine to be God is only our imagination, not God. There are many views and definitions of God. We only include as religions in our beliefs, religions that teach one God with the exception of Buddhism which we are told originally taught about God.

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1. Christianity has an image of god (probably the only creator-religion that does represent god in physical form)

2. Wait. It makes more sense from your point of view if god sent The Buddha. The Buddha cant talk about something he is ignorant to. Thats illogical not only religiously but realistically.

loverofhumanity said:

3. Diversity is part of our humanity so people have different cultures, traditions and languages. More diversity more beauty.

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You said throw away traditions etc posts back. Pages back. Its one thing to look at someone elses water across the see, a whole nother to swim in their water with the goal to save people you think are drowning even though you dont own the land and water your in.

loverofhumanity said:

4. Their collectively do prophesy Kalki Avatar, the Second Coming of Jesus, the Lord of Hosts, AmitAbha Buddha, the Mahdi and Shah Bahram. We believe these all refer to the same Great One to appear in the Last Days.

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1. I wish other religious can reply to this. If it is true, it has to be in their belief system.

2. If its just your belief, using other religious founders is an insult unless they agree

loverofhumanity said:

5. Yes mutual agreement is good. I'll agree as much as I can without compromising basic beliefs.

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1. Mutual agreement if making world peace requires compromise. Its not a one-way situation. Thats why there is no world peace. No one wants to compromise their beliefs.

loverofhumanity said:

6. Why do we need Baha'u'llah is like asking why we need the sun.

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Because we exist way before the founders (those you acknowledge) existed. His existence isnt a cure for peace. Its between people living now, today. The only few things off about bahai is the interpreting of other religions. Your goal and beliefs are yours only.

Thats like two married people arguing and you, way out of nowhere from another country tell us about god, founders, and how they are there to fix our problems rather than asking us.

loverofhumanity said:

If it were not for Bahaullah none of the previous Prophets would have appeared. We need Baha'u'llah because He is the point of why all the religions of the past were revealed. He is the Unifier.

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1. This is your belief. Do you see how you are using other religjons within your own?

2. Why dont you take other peoples faith and correction into consideration if you want to say these religions exist in yours?

loverofhumanity said:

Not Christ nor Krishna, not Buddha nor Muhammad nor Zoroaster or the Bab would have come nor would their Holy Books have been revealed if it were not for Baha'u'llah.

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That is not world peace. Thats you vs. Them. Change your perspective, then you can see my point of view.

loverofhumanity said:

Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise. - Baha'u'llah

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Bahaullah isnt god. What does god say on this?

loverofhumanity said:

God does not need permission from the human beings and religions He created to change or bring a new Teacher to the world.

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You vs. Them perspective.

If god respected his creatiom, he would let them build world peace among their given TLCs. Without that, that is not world peace...

No matter how you turn it.

CG Didymus said:

The NT says that Mary was a virgin, so that settles that. Isaiah isn't necessarily a prophecy about the Messiah being born of a virgin. The word can mean merely a "young woman". Plus, in context, the sign given to King Ahaz doesn't need for the child to be born of a virgin. It only need the child to reach a certain age. The prophecy has to happen by that time. So a really big stretch to take a few verses out of Isaiah and make it a prophecy about Jesus.

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I'm aware the Jews and Christians have had more than a few debates over Isaiah 7:14. I'm happy to sit that one out.

CG Didymus said:

The lives of so many people are inspiring. The lives of the manifestations are questionable. Are they myths and legends? Do Christians really use the life of Jesus and try and live like did? All of the advice he gave to people in the NT would be tough to follow... he told one guy to give away all his money and possessions. He says to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand if they offend you, funny, Christians do take that symbolically. He says his followers will perform miracles of healing and will be able to take up serpents.

Now both of those are done and are very controversial. Healing services have so many healing of bad back and migraines, but in all the ones I went to, I never saw a person get out of their wheelchair. Even other Christians are embarrassed by the "faith healers". But the snake handlers, I love them. They put their faith on the line ever time they pick up a rattlesnake. Crazy? Or, just doing what Jesus said?

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You're making a great case for following snake charmers.

CG Didymus said:

And nothing like threatening people with torture and death to get them to convert. Yes, their lives were transformed. I don't know if I asked you this, but I was thinking, during the Inquisition, what would have been better? What would God have preferred? The Christian Church at the time was corrupt, but it had the NT, the new covenant, the new truth from God. The Jews were still following their old traditions. Were those traditions really what God wanted? Were they, like Jesus said, traditions of men? But what should they do? Stay with their own religions and die? Or, convert and follow different traditions of other men, the Christian traditions. Traditions that would later get called into question by Martin Luther.

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Jesus taught that the gospels be taught to all the nations. Do you think He may have been a little light on the specifics on how that should be done?

CG Didymus said:

I wonder how many people in any religions really try to follow the teachings perfectly? Then, how many abuse them, use them to control others and gain power and wealth. And, how many are just trying to get by and are doing the minimum so as not to get in trouble with the religious authorities?

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I just take it one day at a time and do what I can. How about you?

CG Didymus said:

And now for the toughest question yet... what musical instrument do you play?

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CG Didymus said:

Oh, and I almost forgot, which, prophecy. The prophecy about wars and rumors of war, but that's not the end. It implies that if there are still wars going on that he hasn't come back yet. Thanks.

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OK, time for the serious stuff. Here's how I understand it.

The wars are a consequence and judgement of turning away or rejecting the Christ. The Olivet discourse, for example as told in Matthew 24 is two periods of history. One is talking about the decades ahead as the Jewish temple and Jerusalem will be destroyed and life will get very bad for the Jews. On the other hand there is the rise of the church and the accompanying challenges. Jesus then uses these events/process as an allegory for similar processes and events in the very distant future associated with His return.

Consider the story of Noah's ark that Jesus refers. Matthew 24:37-39

Noah warns people and they have the opportunity to heed His warning or reject it. The flood or tribulation is a consequence of people not heeding Noah's warning. It is God's judgement and it is fair that they are judged as they haven't listened.

Similarly the Jewish people had the opportunity to Flee Jerusalem and Judea but did not listen so the great tribulation came.

Baha'u'llah warned the Kings and rulers who were the powers of Europe. They ignored him and terrible wars came. He warned Alexandra II of Russia to share his wealth and not ignore the burden of his people. The consequence of him ignoring Baha'u'llah's message was that in 1917 the people revolted and communism was established wreaking havoc.

Does that mean it was easy for those that followed Noah or Christ. Not really. Better than not following but still tough times with many difficulties and tests. Same thing for the Baha'is.

So the wars are a consequence of humanities failure. God's judgement comes after, not before.

Hope that helps.

adrian009 said:

I believe that religion is one of the most potent, if not the most powerful force for changing people for better or worse. Religion has a profound affect on values and beliefs which in turn affect the relationships we have with each other, whether it be in our families, work place, friends, and communities.

The only way for change is to be that change and an example of something better. It also means seeing what is positive in all people and all faiths and walking alongside them. So I agree that walking alongside someone and then trying to 'cure' their religion is contradicting what we are about. Its about souls walking together and learning together. The one who is greatest is the one who is least.

Matthew 18:1-4



If not love and unity then what are they based on? I ask the question to learn and understand.

The Baha'i faith is not about invading people's personal space, coercion, or manipulation. Its about the relationship we have with God and with each other. Baha'is are asked to extend our comfort zones so we are not just conversing with people like ourselves but very different as well. Love means genuinely likely people and seeing the positives, even when there appears to be none.



The Baha'i Faith encourages us to be more concerned with the happiness of others than ourselves. That is called selflessness. To help others means to recognise the tools they have to help themselves as you say.



Not at all.

If your religion works for you, then that is excellent. I'm interested to hear how your religion works for you if you want to tell me. We're two people having a conversation. What works for you may not work for me, as what works for me, may not work for you

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I'll get back a bit later. My point is if I believed in god and had a founder Zalu and you tell me he prophecied the coming of Bahaullah, a educator, and promotes world peace by reading scripture that has been in my family for eons, Id be deeply offended.

I know thats not your intention. The point is, that is what is happenin and it annoys the mess becausenits always done under "we are building world peace" whether it be christ, nichiren, or bahaullah.

I talked with Nichiren SGI about how I felt. They gave me this dumfounded look like that doesnt make sense.

I know it doesnt if its your faith. But if I showed you this download picture ans you thought it was a house, a xross, a shed, and someone crying, your perception isnt wrong. The logic of that conclusion is fine.

But the facts are wrong. You have to ask the other person tondecode the language, though not theough your own resources god included (@loverofhumanity)

loverofhumanity said:

4. Their collectively do prophesy Kalki Avatar, the Second Coming of Jesus, the Lord of Hosts, AmitAbha Buddha, the Mahdi and Shah Bahram. We believe these all refer to the same Great One to appear in the Last Days.

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Collectively? No we don't. Simple as that.

adrian009 said:

I believe that religion is one of the most potent, if not the most powerful force for changing people for better or worse. Religion has a profound affect on values and beliefs which in turn affect the relationships we have with each other, whether it be in our families, work place, friends, and communities.

The only way for change is to be that change and an example of something better. It also means seeing what is positive in all people and all faiths and walking alongside them. So I agree that walking alongside someone and then trying to 'cure' their religion is contradicting what we are about. Its about souls walking together and learning together. The one who is greatest is the one who is least.

Matthew 18:1-4



If not love and unity then what are they based on? I ask the question to learn and understand.

The Baha'i faith is not about invading people's personal space, coercion, or manipulation. Its about the relationship we have with God and with each other. Baha'is are asked to extend our comfort zones so we are not just conversing with people like ourselves but very different as well. Love means genuinely likely people and seeing the positives, even when there appears to be none.



The Baha'i Faith encourages us to be more concerned with the happiness of others than ourselves. That is called selflessness. To help others means to recognise the tools they have to help themselves as you

Not at all.

If your religion works for you, then that is excellent. I'm interested to hear how your religion works for you if you want to tell me. We're two people having a conversation. What works for you may not work for me, as what works for me, may not work for you

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I will be honest. Since god is the foundation of your religion, you are already in a self-centered religion. My therapist was distinguishing between self-centered and selfish.

When you're selfish, you want all to yourself and think of yourself only.

In this case, when you're self-centered, you're thinking of everything for god and for god only. You don't separate your self from god, so yes, you become focused only on god and do not take any other religion as any truth real truth but your own.

Nothing wrong with that. I just only heard a few christians admit it. Took them awhile. Ego thing, maybe, I don't know.

That, and you sound a bit more Bahai than christian. Only because christians do not have any other prophets outside those in the bible and they don't have predictions of someone from another geographic area come to tell us the "true unified law" when christ should be it. Done deal! Case closed.

My faith? Me. My Art. and I.

Seriously, though, I want to make creativity as the cornerstone of all I do from work, cooking, praying, and relationships. I liked your guitar picture, though. Can't remember the exact type of guitar my mother played but she loved acoustic. She'd play Dust in the Wind.