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Christians: "In These Three I Believe"

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Every month a member of the First Presidency of the LDS Church writes a message for the membership of the Church. This month, the message is by the current President/Prophet Gordon B. Hinkley and it is titled, "In These Three I Believe." It is about his beleif and the Church teaching that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings, but one in purpose.

Here is a link to the talk: http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,2043-1-3470-1,00.html

I'm interested in having others read it so that we might discuss the items contained therein. I look forward to your responses.

thank you
 

Arben

Member
I certainly agree that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct beings, but with one purpose. I do, however, disagree with him when he says that God has a body just like humans. I don't know of any scripture that truly supports that.

God bless.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Arben said:
I certainly agree that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct beings, but with one purpose. I do, however, disagree with him when he says that God has a body just like humans. I don't know of any scripture that truly supports that.

God bless.

What about the scripture in Genesis that says God created man in his own image?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
I disagree with two assertions made about the nature of God within the article...

a) That God the Father has a body.

b) That there are more than one God/That God is not triune in nature.
 

Todd

Rajun Cajun
beckysoup61 said:
What about the scripture in Genesis that says God created man in his own image?

Because Jesus (God the son) was there before time. God did have a body which was Jesus who has always been. IMO, they are 1 in 3. One God in three forms and they were there since beginning of time. Therefore, God created man in his own image which looked like God the son (Jesus). Here's an example that explains that Jesus was there from before man (you have to read the some of the chapter to get the context, but he is talking about Jesus). I know there are other examples, but this was the only one I could remember at this time.

John 1:15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'

I don't know if what I just said made any since, but I'm tired :).
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Todd said:
Because Jesus (God the son) was there before time. God did have a body which was Jesus who has always been. IMO, they are 1 in 3. One God in three forms and they were there since beginning of time. Therefore, God created man in his own image which looked like God the son (Jesus). Here's an example that explains that Jesus was there from before man (you have to read the some of the chapter to get the context, but he is talking about Jesus). I know there are other examples, but this was the only one I could remember at this time.

John 1:15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'

I don't know if what I just said made any since, but I'm tired :).
I'm confused, Todd. Are you saying that Jesus had a physical body prior to His birth to Mary? We Latter-day Saints also believe that He existed with His Father prior to His incarnation, and was, in fact, with Him in the beginning. But we don't believe He had a body of flesh and bones until He came to earth.
 

Todd

Rajun Cajun
Katzpur said:
I'm confused, Todd. Are you saying that Jesus had a physical body prior to His birth to Mary? We Latter-day Saints also believe that He existed with His Father prior to His incarnation, and was, in fact, with Him in the beginning. But we don't believe He had a body of flesh and bones until He came to earth.

Yes, I believe his body was the template for our creation. God the son is God in the flesh. I would like to ask the same question back. Do yall believe God the father had flesh and bones without being born? Sorry if I'm ignorant of LDS belief. I'm learning though.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Todd said:
Do yall believe God the father had flesh and bones without being born?
I personally believe He was once a spirit man, as you and I were, prior to coming to earth.

He was born to a mortal earth, similar to this one, lived and died, and is now exalted.

We are furnished the same possibility of being exalted with our Eternal Father, if we obey His principles, and perform His ordinances, required for exaltation in His kingdom.

Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 342-345):
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves,... the same as all Gods have done before you..."​
Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 7:333):
"He [God] is our Father - the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being."​
Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 3:93):
"The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself."​
Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation 1:10):​
"God is an exalted man. Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith ... that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man..."​
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young (heading page 29):
"God the Father was once a man on another planet who 'passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality'" (Discourses of Brigham Young, 22)​
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Todd said:
Yes, I believe his body was the template for our creation. God the son is God in the flesh.
Todd,

What do you mean when you say "his body was the template for our creation"? I've never heard anyone put it that way before.

Is Jesus Christ the same individual as God the Father?

Does Jesus still have the body He ascended into Heaven with after His resurrection?

I would like to ask the same question back. Do yall believe God the father had flesh and bones without being born? Sorry if I'm ignorant of LDS belief. I'm learning though.
No problem. I'll do my best to answer this question, but I'll tell you right up front that we have no official doctrine concerning God the Father's beginnings. One of our prophets, Lorenzo Snow, once said, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Although this statement was never canonized and is therefore not doctrinally binding upon the Latter-day Saints, it would probably be safe to say that most of us believe that there is something to this statement. In other words, we are open to the possibility that there may have been a time before "the beginning," before the events described in Genesis took place, when God the Father existed as a man, much as His own Son would later do. I realize that these brief comments will probably raise additional questions, and I'll answer them to the best of my ability. But, as I said before, we haven't been given much information on this subject. I suppose that's because it really isn't pertinent to our salvation.
 
beckysoup61 said:
What about the scripture in Genesis that says God created man in his own image?

As the New Testament clarifies, "image" clearly does not necesarily mean something physical:

"And have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him." Colossians 3:10


"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..." Romans 8:29

FGS
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
As the New Testament clarifies, "image" clearly does not necesarily mean something physical:

"And have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him." Colossians 3:10


"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..." Romans 8:29

FGS

That says nothing about image not being physical. In fact Romans, could also mean physical. It's purely about interpretation.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
FerventGodSeeker said:
As the New Testament clarifies, "image" clearly does not necesarily mean something physical:

"And have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him." Colossians 3:10


"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..." Romans 8:29

FGS
If I've had this conversation once on this forum, I've had it at least a dozen times. An image is the representation of physical qualities, plain and simple. You can twist it any way you want, but that's what the word "image" means.
 
beckysoup61 said:
That says nothing about image not being physical. In fact Romans, could also mean physical. It's purely about interpretation.

"Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created Him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." Colossians 3:9-11

Becky, based on the obvious context of this verse, you're ACTUALLY going to claim that the image our new man in Christ is made in is PHYSICAL? We do not change physical appearance when we become Christians, we are to change SPIRITUALLY, which translates into our deeds and attitudes. Surely you can see that.

FerventGodSeeker
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
Becky, based on the obvious context of this verse, you're ACTUALLY going to claim that the image our new man in Christ is made in is PHYSICAL? We do not change physical appearance when we become Christians, we are to change SPIRITUALLY, which translates into our deeds and attitudes. Surely you can see that.

FerventGodSeeker

Well, don't Catholics believe the eucharist (or sacrament or whatever you call it) changes physically? Why couldn't man physically change in someway?

Oh and what Kathryn said.
 
beckysoup61 said:
Well, don't Catholics believe the eucharist (or sacrament or whatever you call it) changes physically?
Catholics believe that the actual body and blood of Christ are transferred into the Eucharist, yes...but this does not include a change in the physical appearance of the bread and wine. If you did an autopsy of a person who had just taken Communion, you would simply find bread and wine in their stomach. However, this does not negate the possibility that the elements changed spiritually in some way that is not physically perceptible.The Bible, and Christianity in general, as I'm sure you're aware, is far more concerned with internal, spiritual change rather than outward appearances. Spiritual changes of the heart translate into changes in deeds and attitudes, but that obviously doesn't mean we actually look physically different...We're still the same physical person, but we are..."renewed in knowledge" and have "put off the old man with his deeds".

Why couldn't man physically change in someway?
Are you actually suggesting that when a person is born again or converts to Christianity that they physically change appearance (i.e., their facial features/body type actually change so that they look physically different).

Oh and what Kathryn said
Kathryn simply made an assertion without backing it up. I had already questioned that assumption before she said it by responding to your post about the "image" of God, with direct Scriptural evidence...which I think you can clearly see references spiritual change, not physical change.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
Kathryn simply made an assertion without backing it up. I had already questioned that assumption before she said it by responding to your post about the "image" of God, with direct Scriptural evidence...which I think you can clearly see references spiritual change, not physical change.

It's still the way you are interpreting it, and there is no where in the scriptures that says "I didn't make man physically in my image, nor did I not have a physical body.", no does it?

I need to be going to bed, but all you have is interpretation to scripture, that's all, plain and simple.
 
beckysoup61 said:
It's still the way you are interpreting it, and there is no where in the scriptures that says "I didn't make man physically in my image, nor did I not have a physical body.", no does it?
There's also no where in the Scriptures that says, "I didn't make ugly Jell-o aliens who live on Saturn and eat popcorn all day long," either...come on, becky, surely you're not that desperate for an explanation.
I need to be going to bed, but all you have is interpretation to scripture, that's all, plain and simple
Yes, the obvious, normative interpretation based on the clear spiritual context of the verse...which you seem to have no response to. We can both see that the "image" there is spiritual, not physical. Rest well, God bless.

FerventGodSeeker
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
Yes, the obvious, normative interpretation based on the clear spiritual context of the verse...which you seem to have no response to. We can both see that the "image" there is spiritual, not physical. Rest well, God bless.

FerventGodSeeker

That verse yes, but you have still never responded to the verse in Genesis, about how God created man in his image. Is that a spiritual image also? Do you have some sort of expalnation for that?
 
beckysoup61 said:
FerventGodSeeker said:
That verse yes, but you have still never responded to the verse in Genesis, about how God created man in his image. Is that a spiritual image also? Do you have some sort of expalnation for that?

That was the explanation. I was showing how the New Testament scripture clarifies the Old Testament scripture, by demonstrating how God's "image" in Genesis (the Greek word in the Septuagint is the same as in Colossians) is not necesarily physical.

FerventGodSeeker
 
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