God the Sadist?

Skwim · Mar 23, 2017

The story.

God created A&E G 1:27
He thought it was a good thing he had done. G 1:31
He created a pitfall for A&E and told them not to fall for it (eating from tree of the knowledge of good and evil) or they would die. G 2:17
Nonetheless, A&E disregarded god's warning and ate from the tree. G 3:6
As a result, god imposed death and various other penalties, and expelled them from Eden where they were living. G 3:14-24

Now consider: god is omniscient (he knows everything: past, present, and future), which means he knew that even before he created A&E they would take a bite of the apple and bring death upon themselves and those that followed. So why the ruse? And why create beings you know you'd be punishing, unless you're a sadist?

If god isn't a sadist then what could his motive possibly be in creating millions upon millions of creatures destined to suffer?

Think the whole thing is a metaphor or myth? Fine, but as of 2007 "About one-third of the American adult population believes the Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally word for word," and it's these good folk I'm asking.
source

.

Stevicus · Mar 23, 2017

I suppose God could be a sadist, or maybe some mad scientist performing bizarre experiments. If there's a multiverse, then I suppose God could be examining different permutations of the same events. Perhaps our universe is the one where Adam and Eve ate the apple, but there could be another universe where Adam and Eve ate the snake instead. Maybe God is multi-tasking and viewing every possible outcome simultaneously.

Perhaps 98% of the universes are doing great, but we may be part of the 2% that could be a "failed experiment" from God's point of view.

siti · Mar 23, 2017

Stevicus said:
Perhaps 98% of the universes are doing great, but we may be part of the 2% that could be a "failed experiment"

Just my bloody luck!

ADigitalArtist · Mar 23, 2017

To me, this is about as pertinent as asking why a parent might have a child, knowing full well they'll disobey, be punished, suffer and eventually die, as will their children's children and beyond. Some undoubtedly will do well, some undoubtably won't. Clearly they believe the net experience will be more beneficial than detrimental, but some will have more detriment. But to say that makes the parent a sadist is a stretch. There's plenty of ethical criticisms I have regarding gods behavior according to mainstream Christianity, but this isn't one of them.

Aštra’el · Mar 23, 2017

God(s) composed a badâss story. Man, in turn, composed badâss stories about God(s).

lostwanderingsoul · Mar 23, 2017

God gave Adam and Eve a choice.He also gave them free will so they could freely choose to obey or not.Is that being a sadist?

Skwim · Mar 23, 2017

ADigitalArtist said:
To me, this is about as pertinent as asking why a parent might have a child, knowing full well they'll disobey, be punished, suffer and eventually die, as will their children's children and beyond.

This brings to mind an article I read some years ago that made a very good case for the conclusion that almost all children deliberately conceived where done so to satisfy the needs of the parents rather than any thoughts of the life of the expected newborn. (I'm sure this isn't how it was phrased, but this should be close enough to get the idea across.)

In any case, any punishment meted out to ones child will hopefully be deserved and just, something that can't be said of the punishment god has laid upon humans for the mistake two people made a few thousand years ago. When he created A&E he knew they would make the mistake they did, and that he would be kicking them out of Eden along with the punishment of death and a lot of lesser sufferings. People have no idea how their children are going to turn out.

.

Skwim · Mar 23, 2017

lostwanderingsoul said:
God gave Adam and Eve a choice.He also gave them free will so they could freely choose to obey or not.Is that being a sadist?

Well, I don't believe in free will so I can't buy your premise; however, I've already explained why I consider him a sadist. Reread my OP if necessary.

.

Cobol · Mar 23, 2017

RESOLUTION · Mar 23, 2017

Skwim said:
The story.

God created A&E G 1:27
He thought it was a good thing he had done. G 1:31
He created a pitfall for A&E and told them not to fall for it (eating from tree of the knowledge of good and evil) or they would die. G 2:17
Nonetheless, A&E disregarded god's warning and ate from the tree. G 3:6
As a result, god imposed death and various other penalties, and expelled them from Eden where they were living. G 3:14-24

Now consider: god is omniscient (he knows everything: past, present, and future), which means he knew that even before he created A&E they would take a bite of the apple and bring death upon themselves and those that followed. So why the ruse? And why create beings you know you'd be punishing, unless you're a sadist?

But he does not make the choice for them. But he still creates Adam and Eve with flaws knowing what the evil one will cause them to do, and he will save them completely so the evil one will never again (on perfection of his plan) be able to destroy or hurt their relationship with God ever again and allow them to live peacefully for eternity with God. Not a sadist but a father who knows how to protect his children from forces which can hurt them through their own choices.

If god isn't a sadist then what could his motive possibly be in creating millions upon millions of creatures destined to suffer?

Not all destined to suffer? You live you die you raise up to eternal life with God..Man handed himself over to the suffering.
Do you stop your children when adults making their own choices? As a parent are you responsible.

Think the whole thing is a metaphor or myth? Fine, but as of 2007 "About one-third of the American adult population believes the Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally word for word," and it's these good folk I'm asking.
source

.

You were not asking, you were telling sort of preaching what you believed. However the believers see the truth for what it is.
Created with free will. No one did anything to Adam and Eve they did it to themselves. A choice you make everyday to obey or not to obey. Are you choices Gods fault? Then really man only has himself to blame because Adam actually saw God and still disobeyed.

ADigitalArtist · Mar 23, 2017

Skwim said:
This brings to mind an article I read some years ago that made a very good case for the conclusion that almost all children deliberately conceived where done so to satisfy the needs of the parents rather than any thoughts of the life of the expected newborn. (I'm sure this isn't how it was phrased, but this should be close enough to get the idea across.)

In any case, any punishment meted out to ones child will hopefully be deserved and just, something that can't be said of the punishment god has laid upon humans for the mistake two people made a few thousand years ago. When he created A&E he knew they would make the mistake they did, and that he would be kicking them out of Eden along with the punishment of death and a lot of lesser sufferings. People have no idea how their children are going to turn out.
.

I'm not a parent so I can't comment on how altruistic it can be (or even if altruism is a thing.)
But I know enough that I am absolutely sure any child is going to make mistakes, get punished, suffer to some degree in their life and eventually grow sick and die. In that respect every parent would be like God. I imagine most parents come to terms with that without becoming sadistic.

Now allowing the mainstream conception of hell? That's sadistic. And I would not respect any god that allowed eternal torment done to anybody regardless of what their life was like. But plenty of Christians don't believe in eternal torment.

MonkeyFire · Mar 24, 2017

Good and evil is part of nature.

Skwim · Mar 24, 2017

RESOLUTION said:
But he still creates Adam and Eve with flaws knowing what the evil one will cause them to do, and he will save them completely

What do you mean save them completely? God established death as a form of punishment---why else threaten them with it. So death is not good. And when A&E ate the apple that's what they got: death.

so the evil one will never again (on perfection of his plan) be able to destroy or hurt their relationship with God ever again

So what? He had already done his dirty work. No more was needed.

and allow them to live peacefully for eternity with God.

Need evidence here to support your claim. What ya got?

Not a sadist but a father who knows how to protect his children from forces which can hurt them through their own choices.

Think you're not going to suffer god's punishment of death? And if you're unaware of the pain that women go through in child birth, one of god's punishments, then I suggest you ask mothers how they enjoyed the process. OR the labor man must do, another one of god's punishments, then I suggest you ask anyone who's had to work two or three jobs to support his family. And this is in first world countries. Just consider all those in third world countries who die of starvation and suffer crippling diseases. Nope, sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this is the best of all possible worlds comes across as a self-serving, self deception clung to in order to hold onto a theology that god's a good guy. As an omniscient god he knew that millions would suffer absolutely terrible lives, yet he went ahead and created just such human beings, when all he would have to have done to prevent such suffering is not allow them to be created in the first place. Ever wonder why people commit suicide? It's because the life they've been given is not worth the suffering they have to endure.

You were not asking, you were telling sort of preaching what you believed.

Your non-sequitur here aside, please note the question marks concluding each of the following three.

So why the ruse?

And why create beings you know you'd be punishing, unless you're a sadist?

If god isn't a sadist then what could his motive possibly be in creating millions upon millions of creatures destined to suffer?

Nope, despite your attempt at apologetics it fails to erase the facts of the story. God still comes across as a sadist.

.

littlefire · Mar 24, 2017

THIS entire concept is about 30% of the reason why I left Christianity. (Another 20% goes to the arrogance of many of its adherents and the last 50% goes to people who had me downright convinced that when they do the same manipulative or sadistic things that it's perfectly fine and that they're actually being loving)

It's impossible for me to understand how the plan of salvation as laid out in a literal reading of the Bible can in any way be construed as loving. (And the Christian God's supposed to be love, right?)

RESOLUTION · Mar 24, 2017

Skwim said:
What do you mean save them completely? God established death as a form of punishment---why else threaten them with it. So death is not good. And when A&E ate the apple that's what they got: death.

Adam died spiritually and it was after the fall he lost the right to eat from the tree of life.
You confuse your own thought traits ignoring the reality of the bible.

Genesis 2.
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
16.And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17.But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So before the fall Adam and Eve could eat freely from the tree of life in their innocent state.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Man was warned and he ignored the warnings.

So what? He had already done his dirty work. No more was needed.

Right and wrong already existed before Adam and Eve. So no excuse they both understood what 'Do not eat from that tree' meant.

Need evidence here to support your claim. What ya got?

Think you're not going to suffer god's punishment of death?

And if you're unaware of the pain that women go through in child birth, one of god's punishments, then I suggest you ask mothers how they enjoyed the process.

They forget about it once they hold their child in their arms. Are you a woman? Do you have Children?
Did the thought of a womans pain stop you having children if you did?
What really are you complaining about????

OR the labor man must do, another one of god's punishments,[.QUOTE]
How sad for man having to work for a living... Women work for a living too, whilst raising children and looking after a home.
I don't think men hard done by.

then I suggest you ask anyone who's had to work two or three jobs to support his family.

Click to expand...

When you want something you work for it. Surely you don't expect everything handed on a plate.
Seems to me Adam had it cushy he was the one who ruined it.

And this is in first world countries. Just consider all those in third world countries who die of starvation and suffer crippling diseases.

Click to expand...

Mans own greed caused the third world countries. Do you think the leaders of those country exist in poverty? How many sell the aid sent for funding other purposes? You see man is responsible.Do you give for those in need?

Nope, sticking your head in the sand and pretending that this is the best of all possible worlds comes across as a self-serving, self deception clung to in order to hold onto a theology that god's a good guy.

Click to expand...

Most of support for those third world countries come from Christians. Still stood on your soap box. ;D

As an omniscient god he knew that millions would suffer absolutely terrible lives, yet he went ahead and created just such human beings, when all he would have to have done to prevent such suffering is not allow them to be created in the first place.

Click to expand...

When did mankind make you their speaker? Man suffering all came down from Satan, The truth is Christ showed us that God does not want us sick or suffering. Why haven't you given your life to Christ so you can do as he did and heal the sick and feed the hungry?? You want to complain and take no responsibility if you blame God, by blaming God you have to acknowledge that through Christ he has provided a way for all to receive the fullness of life now. So why not ask him for it?
Doesn't make sense you complain and do nothing to make a difference if you believe God is real enough to blame.

Ever wonder why people commit suicide? It's because the life they've been given is not worth the suffering they have to endure.

Click to expand...

What about those who don't commit suicide dying of starvation and war?

Either a relevant point in relation to God or accept they commit suicide because of their mental state at the time and the world around not necessarily the cause.

Either make

Skwim · Mar 24, 2017

RESOLUTION said:
Adam died spiritually and it was after the fall he lost the right to eat from the tree of life.
You confuse your own thought traits ignoring the reality of the bible.

Genesis 2.
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
16.And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17.But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So before the fall Adam and Eve could eat freely from the tree of life in their innocent state.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Man was warned and he ignored the warnings.

Right and wrong already existed before Adam and Eve. So no excuse they both understood what 'Do not eat from that tree' meant.

Doesn't make any difference what they knew. God knew what they would do and what he would do in return. He created them knowing full well he would be punishing them. Nice guy. "I'm going to create these beings, humans, and punish them."

.

RESOLUTION · Mar 24, 2017

Skwim said:
Doesn't make any difference what they knew. God knew what they would do and what he would do in return. He created them knowing full well he would be punishing them. Nice guy. "I'm going to create these beings, humans, and punish them."

.

But he didn't punish them he sent his son to save them. You raise from the dead and then go right or left after Judgment.
You have a choice but you choose to complain and make unfounded allegations in the light of the knowledge of Satan.

viole · Mar 24, 2017

lostwanderingsoul said:
God gave Adam and Eve a choice.He also gave them free will so they could freely choose to obey or not.Is that being a sadist?

If He knew in advance what they will choose and how He will punish them accordingly, there is a clear and present danger that He is.

Ciao

- viole

viole · Mar 24, 2017

RESOLUTION said:
But he didn't punish them he sent his son to save them.

That might have been a bit late for all those men, women, and babies, in or outside the womb, who drowned during the flood.

And by the way, if we believe that God is triune, we can infer that Jesus was there when Dad drowned all those people, and pets, with the possible exception of goldfishes. So much for His meekness and forgiveness.

Maybe He disagreed but just followed orders, who can say?

Ciao

- viole

RESOLUTION · Mar 24, 2017

viole said:
That might have been a bit late for all those men, women, and babies, in or outside the womb, who drowned during the flood.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Nothing impossible for God.

And by the way, if we believe that God is triune, we can infer that Jesus was there when Dad drowned all those people, and pets, with the possible exception of goldfishes. So much for His meekness.

Maybe He disagreed but just followed orders, who can say?

Ciao

- viole

All attitude no real knowledge or reasoning....

God the Sadist?

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Code Jockey

Active Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

You can call me Fio

Active Member

Veteran Member

Active Member

Ontological Naturalist

Ontological Naturalist

Active Member