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If Jesus is God he sacrificed nothing for us.

B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Muffled said:
I believe you have no evidence to support that view despite the fact that you say you do. I believe that is not what I said. I said the Messiah does not remain alive forever. Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
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And I said that the Messiah remains alive forever as long as it remains as a People before the Lord forever if you read Jeremiah 31:35-37. That's a Jew on his Scriptures, and you are a Christian on the Scriptures of a Jew. Use your commonsense now and figure who is more liable to be telling the truth. No offense meant, please! Now, with regards to Isaiah 53:8,9 when the Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living aka Israel and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, they Lord opens up those graves and brings His People back to the Land of Israel. That's the picture of Ezekiel 37:12 with the prophecy of the Dry Bones. What violence did the Jews do to the nation that forced them into exile? None. Rather the opposite is true. Forever they lived under the violence of their oppressors.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Ben Avraham said:
And I said that the Messiah remains alive forever as long as it remains as a People before the Lord forever if you read Jeremiah 31:35-37. That's a Jew on his Scriptures, and you are a Christian on the Scriptures of a Jew. Use your commonsense now and figure who is more liable to be telling the truth. No offense meant, please! Now, with regards to Isaiah 53:8,9 when the Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living aka Israel and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, they Lord opens up those graves and brings His People back to the Land of Israel. That's the picture of Ezekiel 37:12 with the prophecy of the Dry Bones. What violence did the Jews do to the nation that forced them into exile? None. Rather the opposite is true. Forever they lived under the violence of their oppressors.
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[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I believe you think you know something but the text clearly says seed not Messiah which simply means Israel will have a descendant forever.

I believe it says nothing about Jews going into exile. You are completely fabricating a fictional story out of that. Isa. 53 clearly is talking about the Messiah.
 
B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]

I believe you think you know something but the text clearly says seed not Messiah which simply means Israel will have a descendant forever.

I believe it says nothing about Jews going into exile. You are completely fabricating a fictional story out of that. Isa. 53 clearly is talking about the Messiah.[/QUOTE]

The seed is Judah and Judah is the Messiah ben David. Israel was the Messiah ben Joseph aka the Suffering Servant. And the Messiah ben David aka Judah is the Triumphant Servant as long as it remains as a people before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
 
B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Muffled said:
I believe you think you know something but the text clearly says seed not Messiah which simply means Israel will have a descendant forever. I believe it says nothing about Jews going into exile. You are completely fabricating a fictional story out of that. Isa. 53 clearly is talking about the Messiah.
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You believe wrongly as usual to all Christians who try to vandalize the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach with the things of the NT aka the gospel of Paul. Regarding Isaiah 53:8,9. Focus on what you read if you can. "For he, Messiah ben Joseph was cut off from the land of the living aka the Land of Israel through the sin of my people aka Judah who deserved the punishment. That's Isaiah speaking. And his grave was set among the wicked with the rich in his death aka exile. When Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the land of the living and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up their graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel, just as it is said in Ezekiel 37:12.
 
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MJFlores

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Jeremiahcp said:
If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.
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The Lord Jesus is a man, he said it so: John 8:40
The Lord Jesus is a man approved by God, his apostles said it so: Acts 2:22

Jesus did not sacrifice himself for the world - no, sir!

John 17:6-9 New International Version (NIV)

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

To whom did Jesus sacrificed himself then?

Ephesians 5:25 New International Version (NIV)

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

What is the name of the church?

Romans 16:16 New International Version (NIV)

Greet one another with a holy kiss.
All the churches of Christ send greetings.
 
B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]

I believe you think you know something but the text clearly says seed not Messiah which simply means Israel will have a descendant forever.

I believe it says nothing about Jews going into exile. You are completely fabricating a fictional story out of that. Isa. 53 clearly is talking about the Messiah.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Isaiah 53 is clearly talking about the Messiah. What is the Messiah? The Messiah is the Anointed one of God. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forward to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord. That's the Israel of Isaiah 53. I can very well see how Christian preconceived notions operate in you.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me

I believe you think you know something but the text clearly says seed not Messiah which simply means Israel will have a descendant forever.

I believe it says nothing about Jews going into exile. You are completely fabricating a fictional story out of that. Isa. 53 clearly is talking about the Messiah.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Isaiah 53 is clearly talking about the Messiah. What is the Messiah? The Messiah is the Anointed one of God. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forward to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord. That's the Israel of Isaiah 53. I can very well see how Christian preconceived notions operate in you.[/QUOTE]

I believe that means that if my neighbor has a son named Isreal he has to be the Messiah. That is a logical fallacy. I am a son of GOd does that make me the Messiah. I believe the resoning is the same and still fallacious.
 
B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Muffled said:
I believe you think you know something but the text clearly says seed not Messiah which simply means Israel will have a descendant forever. I believe it says nothing about Jews going into exile. You are completely fabricating a fictional story out of that. Isa. 53 clearly is talking about the Messiah. I believe that means that if my neighbor has a son named Isreal he has to be the Messiah. That is a logical fallacy. I am a son of GOd does that make me the Messiah. I believe the resoning is the same and still fallacious.
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Prophet Habakkuk speaks of God's People as the Anointed One of the Lord. What people was he talking about? Obviously Israel. I believe that to use Christian preconceived notions to interpret the Jewish Scriptures couldn't be more fallacious. Then, besides Exodus 19:5,6, if you read Exodus 4:22,23, clearly, the Lord said, "Israel is My Son."

Besides, the Messiah cannot be an individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) Sorry Muffled, HaShem has given you a chance to debate with one from among His People if you read Exodus 19:5,6 above. Now, moved by Christian preconceived notions, you are deliberately stiffing your neck against the truth of God's Word. Now, you must return to Jesus his Jewish identity and stop dealing with him as if he was a Christian. The man you are looking for is Paul, not Jesus.
 
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