Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David

omega2xx · Mar 17, 2017

Ingledsva said:
You folks take this out of context, - then add your own nonsense.

Read it in context. They are at WAR. They are AFRAID. OUTNUMBERED.

By definition the Hebrew word means "GOD WITH US." context never changes the definition.

]THEY

Click to expand...

, - not future generations, - are given a sign.

The child/SIGN is called Immanuel, - God is with us.

The SIGN - is that YHVH is with them - in the war.

This has nothing to do with a future Jesus.

*[/QUOTE]

"Will give you," is future tense

omega2xx · Mar 17, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
So, as you say above, I am sadly mistaken to think that in God's plan, the Gentiles are not included! Are you positive about what you say here? If so, how do you explain that every time Jesus sent his disciples on a mission to spread the gospel of salvation, he would warn them not to take the way to the Gentiles, especially if they were Samaritans? If you don't believe this is true, who wrote Matthew 10:5,6? That's not something in the Tanach but in your own NT. If you deny it, you are denying your own NT.

God's covenant with Abraham included the Gentiles---in you ALL nations will be blessed. Jesus ministered to Gentiles: the Centurian and the Samaritans. God gave Paul the ministry to the Gentiles. No one was omitted.

omega2xx · Mar 17, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
I think you simply do not believe in the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach; only when it pleases your Christian preconceived notions.

I can support what I say with Scripture, you can't.

Ingledsva · Mar 18, 2017

omega2xx said:
It only seems twisted to those who lack understanding.

That would be Christians that twist, misinterpret, and change, another religion's texts.

omega2xx said:
The Tanakh doe snot say that. That is a Jewish interpretation to avoid making Isa 53 a Messianic prophecy.

LOL! You folks keep taking things out of context. Read the whole book from Isaiah 1:1. They are at war. The sign is for Isaiah and Ahaz, and the warriors.

Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again UNTO Ahaz, saying,

Isa 7:11 Ask THEE a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.

Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give YOU a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

See also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20

The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22.

omega2xx said:
Another Jewish interpretation.

No - All kinds of things are written about the Jewish messiah. A dead sacrificed messiah isn't part of it.

The Messiah is supposed to do specific things, - which Jesus did NOT do! He got killed.

omega2xx said:
Isa 53 is definitely about someone dying for the sins of others. No Jew can qualify for that. Only Jesus was without spot or blemish.

You folks are so full of baloney.

It is a Jewish text, written by, and for, the Jews.

LOL! Without spot or blemish? Don't you read your Bible?

JESUS SPEAKING -

Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and SLAY THEM before me.

*

Ingledsva · Mar 18, 2017

omega2xx said:
By definition the Hebrew word means "GOD WITH US." context never changes the definition.

With us in the battle.

Many Hebrew names had god in them.

Ingledsva said:
The child/SIGN is called Immanuel, - God is with us.

The SIGN - is that YHVH is with them - in the war.

This has nothing to do with a future Jesus.*

omega2xx said:
"Will give you," is future tense

That YOU is Ahaz, Isaiah, and their warriors. The fighting House of David.

Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again UNTO Ahaz, saying,

Isa 7:11 Ask THEE a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.

Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give YOU a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

- YOU - not some future Christians.

No virgin either. The word means maiden/lass, etc.

*

Ben Avraham · Mar 19, 2017

omega2xx said:
I can support what I say with Scripture, you can't.

Very good! Now, let's check your statement. Where in the Tanach is Jesus mentioned as the Messiah? Where in the Tanach is Jesus mentioned to be the son of God? Where in the Tanach Jesus is said to have experienced bodily resurrection? Where, where, where... etc? You cannot support any thing I have said because nothing exists in the Tanach about Jesus. Now, that Israel is the Messiah, you can read Habakkuk 3:13, that Israel is the son of God, you can read Exodus 4:22,23 and that bodily resurrection does not exist, you can read II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc. See what I mean now what is to support a thesis with the Scriptures?

omega2xx · Mar 19, 2017

Ingledsva said:
That would be Christians that twist, misinterpret, and change, another religion's texts.

Talk is cheap. Be specific.

LOL! You folks keep taking things out of context. Read the whole book from Isaiah 1:1. They are at war. The sign is for Isaiah and Ahaz, and the warriors.

Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again UNTO Ahaz, saying,

Isa 7:11 Ask THEE a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.

Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give YOU a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

That is partially right. The sign was to show that God would take car of them and defeat their enemy. However the child was not born during their life time . To give it the name Immanuel makes it a Messianic prophecy that was fulfilled b y Jesus

Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

See also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20

The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22.

Everyone who believes in God is called a servant of Him, and no Jew can fulfill whatg is describe in Isa 53. Remember, the sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish and only Jesus can meet that reuirfement.

No - All kinds of things are written about the Jewish messiah. A dead sacrificed messiah isn't part of it.

That depends on if Isa 53 is a Messianic prophecy.

The Messiah is supposed to do specific things, - which Jesus did NOT do! He got killed.

When Jesus returns, He will fulfill the rest of them.

You folks are so full of baloney.

It is a Jewish text, written by, and for, the Jews.

LOL! Without spot or blemish? Don't you read your Bible?

Tell me one Jew who was without spot of blemish. I believe it is you who fulfill the prophecy of Isa 6:9-10. The whole Bible is for all worshipers of God, not just to one people. God love the Gentiles as much as He does the Jews and He included them in His call of Abram---In you ALL nations will be blessed.

JESUS SPEAKING -

Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and SLAY THEM before me.

*

If you want to use the NT, used it all.

Christians are not enemies of God, we are worshipers of Him.

Ben Avraham · Mar 19, 2017

omega2xx said:
God's covenant with Abraham included the Gentiles---in you ALL nations will be blessed. Jesus ministered to Gentiles: the Centurian and the Samaritans. God gave Paul the ministry to the Gentiles. No one was omitted.

Do you understand what you have said above? You have simply said that Jesus was either a liar or had taken haxixe on that day when he warned his disciples not to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles, especially Samaritans. (Mat. 10:5,6) Otherwise, explain how Jesus ministered to Gentiles and Samaritans.

omega2xx · Mar 19, 2017

Ingledsva said:
With us in the battle.

Many Hebrew names had god in them.

And none of them changed the contest of the passage.

That YOU is Ahaz, Isaiah, and their warriors. The fighting House of David.

Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again UNTO Ahaz, saying,

Isa 7:11 Ask THEE a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.

Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give YOU a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

- YOU - not some future Christians.

Answered in previous post.

No virgin either. The word means maiden/lass, etc.

*

It means a young maiden who is a virgin to separate it from being an old virgin. Teh saem word is used in Gen 24:43, unless you think Abraham was willing to accept a nonvirgin for his son'd wife.

omega2xx · Mar 19, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Very good! Now, let's check your statement. Where in the Tanach is Jesus mentioned as the Messiah?Where in the Tanach is Jesus mentioned to be the son of God? Where in the Tanach Jesus is said to have experienced bodily resurrection? Where, where, where... etc? You cannot support any thing I have said because nothing exists in the Tanach about Jesus. Now, that Israel is the Messiah, you can read Habakkuk 3:13, that Israel is the son of God, you can read Exodus 4:22,23 and that bodily resurrection does not exist, you can read II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc. See what I mean now what is to support a thesis with the Scriptures?

You are trying to limit me to just the OT. My statement included the whole Bible.

omega2xx · Mar 19, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Do you understand what you have said above? You have simply said that Jesus was either a liar or had taken haxixe on that day when he warned his disciples not to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles, especially Samaritans. (Mat. 10:5,6) Otherwise, explain how Jesus ministered to Gentiles and Samaritans.

Are you not familiar with Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well? She was a Samaritan and a Gentile. They believed in Him as the Messiah. The centurion was a Gentile and He believed in Jesus. There is a good chanced that Mark and Luke were Gentiles. God does not play favorites

Gen 12:3b---In you(Abram) ALL the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Ben Avraham · Mar 19, 2017

omega2xx said:
Are you not familiar with Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well? She was a Samaritan and a Gentile. They believed in Him as the Messiah. The centurion was a Gentile and He believed in Jesus. There is a good chanced that Mark and Luke were Gentiles. God does not play favorites. Gen 12:3b---In you(Abram) ALL the families of the earth shall be blessed.

In that case, where is the lie in Mat. 10:5,6 or in John 4? In Mat. 10:5,6 Jesus wanted nothing to do with Gentiles or Samaritans. In John 4 he was dialoguing with a Samaritan woman. What a messy to try to harmonize the gospels! Regarding Abraham, according to the JPS translation of the Bible in Genesis 22:18, talking to Abraham, HaShem said, "All the nations of the earth shall bless themselves by your descendants because you have obeyed My command." By your descendants we have a reference to Israel Then, if you read Genesis 21:12, "But God said to Abraham "... for it is through Isaac that offsprings shall be continued for you." This is another reference to Israel. And if you read Genesis 17:19,21, "But My Covenant I will maintain with Isaac as an everlasting covenant for his offspring to come." That's another reference to Israel aka the offspring of Isaac.

Ben Avraham · Mar 19, 2017

omega2xx said:
You are trying to limit me to just the OT. My statement included the whole Bible.

Yah but, Jesus was a Jew and he never had any thing to do with the NT. He never even dreamed the NT would ever rise. So, Jesus' gospel was the Tanach.

omega2xx · Mar 19, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
In that case, where is the lie in Mat. 10:5,6 or in John 4? In Mat. 10:5,6 Jesus wanted nothing to do with Gentiles or Samaritans

You are reading something into those verses that is not said or even implied. They do not indicate Jesus wanted nothing to do with either group.

In John 4 he was dialoguing with a Samaritan woman.

Then why did He go through Samaria when most Jews wouldn't and He didn't have to? Why did He talk with her and convert her and some of the other Gentile Samaritians?

What a messy to try to harmonize the gospels! Regarding Abraham, according to the JPS translation of the Bible in Genesis 22:18, talking to Abraham, HaShem said, "All the nations of the earth shall bless themselves by your descendants because you have obeyed My command." By your descendants we have a reference to Israel Then, if you read Genesis 21:12, "But God said to Abraham "... for it is through Isaac that offsprings shall be continued for you." This is another reference to Israel. And if you read Genesis 17:19,21, "But My Covenant I will maintain with Isaac as an everlasting covenant for his offspring to come." That's another reference to Israel aka the offspring of Isaac.

You can't or wont even quote your own publication correctly. Here is what the JPS says of Gen 22:18 - and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast hearkened to My voice.'

The covenant continuing through Isaac does not eliminate "all nations shall be bless." It continues it.

omega2xx · Mar 19, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Yah but, Jesus was a Jew and he never had any thing to do with the NT. He never even dreamed the NT would ever rise. So, Jesus' gospel was the Tanach.

God inspired the NT. It is all about Jesus. Your remarks are getting more absurd as we continue.

You have no idea what Jesus dreamed or did not dream of. So you look very foolish when you make such ignorant statements.

Ben Avraham · Mar 19, 2017

omega2xx said:
God inspired the NT. It is all about Jesus. Your remarks are getting more absurd as we continue.

You have no idea what Jesus dreamed or did not dream of. So you look very foolish when you make such ignorant statements.

First, Jesus was a Jew and Jews, in general don't waste their time with the NT. And second, the NT was written about 50 years after Jesus had been gone. How could that remark be absurd? The problem is that you cannot stand the truth of the Scriptures without using up a Jew to promote the Hellenistic doctrines of the NT.

Ben Avraham · Mar 19, 2017

omega2xx said:
You are reading something into those verses that is not said or even implied. They do not indicate Jesus wanted nothing to do with either group. Then why did He go through Samaria when most Jews wouldn't and He didn't have to? Why did He talk with her and convert her and some of the other Gentile Samaritians? You can't or wont even quote your own publication correctly. Here is what the JPS says of Gen 22:18 - and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast hearkened to My voice.'
The covenant continuing through Isaac does not eliminate "all nations shall be bless." It continues it.

If it is not true that Jesus did not want any thing to do with Gentiles and Samaritans, why don't you explain Mat. 10:5,6? You don't even touch the subject! Aren't you ashamed that such a thing is in your own NT? Jesus did not talk with the Samaritan woman. The text is a forgery by the Hellenist who wrote the gospel of John. For Jesus to forbid his disciples not to go to the Gentiles and, when the disciples went on their mission, Jesus went to have a dialogue with a Samaritan woman, that shows that Jesus was a hypocrite and a liar. You guys are to blame; I am not because I don't believe it ever happened. Well, I am waiting for your explanation of Mat. 10:5,6.

omega2xx · Mar 19, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
First, Jesus was a Jew and Jews, in general don't waste their time with the NT. And second, the NT was written about 50 years after Jesus had been gone. How could that remark be absurd? The problem is that you cannot stand the truth of the Scriptures without using up a Jew to promote the Hellenistic doctrines of the NT.

If you don't understand why, it is beyond me to explain it to you.

omega2xx · Mar 19, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
If it is not true that Jesus did not want any thing to do with Gentiles and Samaritans, why don't you explain Mat. 10:5,6?

I did.

You don't even touch the subject! Aren't you ashamed that such a thing is in your own NT? Jesus did not talk with the Samaritan woman. The text is a forgery by the Hellenist who wrote the gospel of John.

Prove it.

For Jesus to forbid his disciples not to go to the Gentiles and, when the disciples went on their mission, Jesus went to have a dialogue with a Samaritan woman, that shows that Jesus was a hypocrite and a liar. You guys are to blame; I am not because I don't believe it ever happened. Well, I am waiting for your explanation of Mat. 10:5,6.

Your responses show a bigoted view of Christianity and a lack of understanding your own Scriptures.

Ben Avraham · Mar 19, 2017

omega2xx said:
I did. Prove it. Your responses show a bigoted view of Christianity and a lack of understanding your own Scriptures.

My response shows the truth of Reality according to the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach. The problem is that you can't take it.

Messiah Ben Joseph versus Messiah Ben David

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

HEATHEN ALASKAN

HEATHEN ALASKAN

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member