No... tithes did not end with the Mosaic Law mainly because it was instituted by Abraham before the law existed. Hebrews 7:1-7. The main difference is that we do it now because of love and not because of law.
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The Gospels. Any 'Difficult' verses?
- Thread starter oldbadger
- Start date
No... tithes did not end with the Mosaic Law mainly because it was instituted by Abraham before the law existed. Hebrews 7:1-7. The main difference is that we do it now because of love and not because of law.
So God just did a hit and run on all of us and left us to it?
Nit picking details does not negate God's purpose in our creation or in the existence of the universe.
Its a lot of effort to go to for no apparent reason...isn't it? What person with any intelligence goes to so much effort for no reason?
How do you then have a starting point, let alone a finish line?
Hanging in limbo is not somewhere I want to spend my life.
I believe there is a reason for our existence and a finish line that is not too far down the track.....but that is just me, basing my beliefs on 45 years of Bible study. The waters are not muddy for me, like they appear to be for you.
I believe that these accounts can be reconciled. The "shekel" mentioned in Exodus (according to Strong's) was..."the chief unit of weight or measure." so, not necessarily referring to a coin per se, because a shekel could be measured out in food and other commodities, like metals, (copper or iron as well as silver and gold. 1Samuel 17:5, 7; Ezekiel 4:10; Amos 8:5.)
OB, how does taking the position you have taken allow you to ever come to any sound conclusions about anything?
I don't immediately jump to negative conclusions when something "clear as day" is presented to me. I research and find the answers that are in accord with what the Bible says, because it is never wrong.....I find that there are always reasonable explanations. Most times it isn't a case of "either/or" but more a case of blending both and keeping it simple. Complicating the whole scenario just gives me a headache.
I need answers, not just more questions. You think God doesn't provide answers? I know he does.God inspired the writings, but he did not dictate them. The Bible writers were just his secretaries, injecting their own observations. There is no record that Jesus ever personally wrote a thing, apart from something he inscribed in sand with a stick on one occasion. Everything written about him, was recorded by someone else....most of them had a personal relationship with him....some recorded events were heard first hand from those who traveled with him. Why are you so suspicious?
Ah, now I am beginning to see where your misgivings come from. You have been trained to examine everything hypercritically.....IOW, you are looking for too many details, which can cloud the whole picture. It isn't all that complicated when you step back. What we lost in the beginning, Jesus came to buy back for us, so we all end up back at square one.
The whole Bible is about the journey back and reconciliation with our Creator.
I know....he is the God I worship.
The spirit behind that perfect law is what the Pharisees neglected to appreciate. They were so legalistic in their 'performance' that mercy was forgotten, especially in dealing with "the lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent.
As he said in Matthew 23:23-24:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. These things should have been done without neglecting the others. 24 Blind guides! You strain out a gnat, yet gulp down a camel!"
Mercy was so much more important than the cold letter of the law. God always extended mercy when it was warranted.
Then what was his baptism for? Why did John refuse at first to perform the baptism? What did Jesus say that persuaded him to carry it out?
Why travel with a specifically chosen 12 apostles for three and a half years of intensive preaching and teaching if he had no ministry? A ministry is simply being in the service of others. His instructions were pretty plain....
Matthew 10:11-15:
“When you enter any town or village, find out who is worthy, and stay there until you leave. 12 Greet a household when you enter it, 13 and if the household is worthy, let your peace be on it. But if it is unworthy, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 I assure you: It will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town."
There was a very important message that had to be made known. (Matthew 10:6-7)
Your picture has no apparent focus or outcome as far as I can see. Can you define it for me?
Yes, the difference is that we do it because we want to out of love, not because we are expected to by law. But tithing was a flat 10% of whatever it was that the Israelites had acquired from their labors.....whether it was produce, money, wine etc. Most, as Jesus observed, gave out of their surplus. (Luke 21:4) They would not have even missed 10%. But true to his loving nature, God made provision for the poor, as in the case with Mary and Joseph making their offering at the temple after Jesus was born. They made the offering of the poor. Had the 'three wise men' (magi) made their gifts to the infant Jesus in the stable, then Mary and Joseph would have had gold to buy a sheep to offer as their sacrifice, (Luke 2:22-24; Leviticus 12:6, 8) but all they offered was two small turtle doves.
The apostle Paul indicated the spirit of giving that all Christians should have, both towards God and to their brothers and sisters in Christ....
2 Cor 9:6-7:
"But as to this, whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."
There was no 10% requirement for Christians.
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Yes, I didn't say it was a requirement--I simply said it hasn't passed away and is now done out of faith that works through love. In reality EVERYTHING we have belongs to Him to call on what we have whenever He leads us. However, the best place to start at is with a 10% and go from there. It still opens the windows of Heaven.Yes, the difference is that we do it because we want to out of love, not because we are expected to by law. But tithing was a flat 10% of whatever it was that the Israelites had acquired from their labors.....whether it was produce, money, wine etc. Most, as Jesus observed, gave out of their surplus. (Luke 21:4) They would not have even missed 10%. But true to his loving nature, God made provision for the poor, as in the case with Mary and Joseph making their offering at the temple after Jesus was born. They made the offering of the poor. Had the 'three wise men' (magi) made their gifts to the infant Jesus in the stable, then Mary and Joseph would have had gold to buy a sheep to offer as their sacrifice, (Luke:2:22-24; Leviticus 12:6, 8) but all they offered was two small turtle doves.
The apostle Paul indicated the spirit of giving that all Christians should have, both towards God and to their brothers and sisters in Christ....
2 Cor 9:6-7:
"But as to this, whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."
There was no 10% requirement for Christians.
When He impressed us to sell all of our furniture and give it to missions... we simply obeyed. The blessing for the obedience was incredible.
Matthew 19:16-24:
"Now look! someone came up to him and said: “Teacher, what good must I do to gain everlasting life?” 17 He said to him: “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.” 18 He said to him: “Which ones?” Jesus said: “You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not bear false witness, 19 honor your father and your mother, and you must love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him: “I have kept all of these; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come be my follower.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away grieved, for he had many possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to you that it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the heavens. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”
When we examine this passage, what was Jesus recommending to this rich young man? He first of all told him to obey God's commands, but the man realized that there was more to it.
Did Jesus tell him to sell all his belongings? 10% of them? Would he even do that?
As a rich man, he had many material possessions, but the simple life recommended for a Christian is complicated by wealth and possessions. Its a distraction. The more you have, the more you have to devote time and attention to them.
The recommendation was "neither poverty nor riches", but a simple life, being content with the necessities. (Matthew 6:25-33)
It is true, that if we have too much (materially) and we want to keep it all to ourselves, then God would never bless that.
God will bless the efforts of those who seek to downsize and reduce their need for material things in favor of more time to serve God. If the surplus then went to promoting the Lord's work, then that would also merit a blessing.....not materially, but spiritually. "Treasures in heaven" come from a dedicated life of self sacrifice, not a selfish one where we don't want to share what we have with others who are less fortunate.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ah..... Deeje, Oh the arrogance of humanity, believing itself so special! Let me have some fun, by answering through Old Khayyam?
Alike for those who for TO-DAY prepare,
And those that after a TO-MORROW stare,
A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries
"Fools! your Reward is neither Here nor There."
Khayyam
"How sweet is mortal Sovranty!"—think some:
Others—"How blest the Paradise to come!"
Ah, take the Cash in hand and waive the Rest;
Oh, the brave Music of a distant Drum!
Khayyam
..... so you're never going to discover anything about the Great Temple's coinage? ..... or the real beauty of Jesus's enquiry about that coin??? !
Ah! my Beloved, fill the Cup that clears
TO-DAY of past Regrets and future Fears-
To-morrow?—Why, To-morrow I may be
Myself with Yesterday's Sev'n Thousand Years.
Khayyam
Ah, Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,
Would not we shatter it to bits—and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!
Khayyam
...because everything written about him was recorded by someone else!
No need to read all that small print Madam! Just sign up here!
So Jesus, like the Immerser, attempted to lead a rising.... to bring back fair livings for the Jewish working people.
Because he wanted it!
G-Mark's 11.5 months is more accurate. Christians are so misled by G-John. imo.
........ OF THE BIBLE?
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
Ah..... Deeje, Oh the arrogance of humanity, believing itself so special! Let me have some fun, by answering through Old Khayyam?
Alike for those who for TO-DAY prepare,
And those that after a TO-MORROW stare,
A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries
"Fools! your Reward is neither Here nor There."
Khayyam
"How sweet is mortal Sovranty!"—think some:
Others—"How blest the Paradise to come!"
Ah, take the Cash in hand and waive the Rest;
Oh, the brave Music of a distant Drum!
Khayyam
..... so you're never going to discover anything about the Great Temple's coinage? ..... or the real beauty of Jesus's enquiry about that coin??? !
Ah! my Beloved, fill the Cup that clears
TO-DAY of past Regrets and future Fears-
To-morrow?—Why, To-morrow I may be
Myself with Yesterday's Sev'n Thousand Years.
Khayyam
Ah, Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,
Would not we shatter it to bits—and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!
Khayyam
...because everything written about him was recorded by someone else!
No need to read all that small print Madam! Just sign up here!
So Jesus, like the Immerser, attempted to lead a rising.... to bring back fair livings for the Jewish working people.
Because he wanted it!
G-Mark's 11.5 months is more accurate. Christians are so misled by G-John. imo.
........ OF THE BIBLE?
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
And may the Swartz be with you.......and Omar Khayyam.....
I can agree and on some points and disagree on others because one has to take into account all scriptures and not just one.
First, we must remember that as a Jewish man, he already was tithing according to the law. Thus the 10% was a non-issue. His heart was the issue.
The problem with just one scripture and culminating into your position because of it, one may think that simple life = spirituality whereas, in this case, it was about heart and not the amount of possessions one has. (Example coming up)
If one has the gift of administration to create wealth and the gift of giving to help people, then you have limited his ability to help the poor.
Lets look at another scripture:
As a chief tax collector, Zaccheaus was a VERY wealthy man:
Luke 19:8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
Money was not an issue here because the heart was right and Jesus didn't say "sell everything you have". After giving half and restoring anyone to who he had cheated, he still was a wealthy man because of his position and ability to make wealth.
I think this is not correctly said. It would be correctly stated:
"If we have too much (materially) we have the TEMPTATION to keep it all to ourselves and God would not bless that. However, if your heart is right, God will multiply your ability if you keep Him at the center of it and you let His Holy Spirit guide you into what to do with it. He doesn't mind that you also have bread to eat if you remember to give seed to sow"
That is still a heart issue. Remember that the one who made 5 more talents receive an extra talent.God will bless the efforts of those who seek to downsize and reduce their need for material things in favor of more time to serve God. If the surplus then went to promoting the Lord's work, then that would also merit a blessing.....not materially, but spiritually. "Treasures in heaven" come from a dedicated life of self sacrifice, not a selfish one where we don't want to share what we have with others who are less fortunate.
I know of people that have a great wealthy status and serve God abundantly because their wealth gives them more time to do so. It remains a heart issue.
So your position is correct if materiality has your heart, but if God has your heart then materiality is of no consequence. In the rich young rulers case, money had his heart. In Zaccheaus case, Jesus had his heart.
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' What would be held in common ' to me means being held in common with non-Christian teachings.
Blending, or mixing, or fusing Scripture with what is Not Scripture, just being taught as being Scripture.
I think Paul wrote 14 Bible books. Paul never met the physical, fleshly Jesus, but met the resurrected Jesus.
The resurrected spirit Jesus talked to Paul according to Luke at Acts of the Apostles 9:4-6
We should all lean / to the parables ( illustrations ) and sermons Jesus did perform.
Those who did Not became part of Jesus' teachings are the fallen away of Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.
Rather, it was the people Not closest to Jesus who did Not understand.
Jesus explained his parables/ illustrations to those closest to him at Matthew 13:36-38
Please also notice Mark 4:34 because Jesus did explain ( expound ) all this to his close followers.
Gospel writer Luke wrote that explanations were given at Acts of the Apostles 8:35; Acts of the Apostles 18:26
I agree that if one has the ability to create wealth and help people then they should be like the apparently well-enough off neighborly good Samaritan who helped a person in his time of distress. He used his monies to help the injured man.
So, we are to widen out, or broaden out, in showing love and helping people on a one-on-one basis as Jesus' neighborly good Samaritan illustration teaches us.
Jesus never set up soup kitchens, etc. but his first priority was preaching and teaching - Luke 4:43
Jesus also gave that same direction to his followers at Matthew 28:18-20; Matthew 24:14
Not saying soup kitchens or such buildings in themselves are wrong, but a Christian's main service is the advancing about the kingdom message being good news because God's kingdom government is Not a temporary patch on this old dying system, but a permanent solution coming under Christ's millennium-long day of governing over Earth.
- Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14; Daniel 2:44
Very interesting to me that you tied in Abraham as living before the Constitution of the Mosaic Law.
Noah too lived before the Law, and the everlasting Rainbow covenant is permanent - Genesis 9:16
The ' everlasting covenant ' or contract made with Abraham I find at Genesis 17:7
I can't find anything about a permanent tithing covenant with Abraham.
To me, Hebrews 7:1-7 is showing that Christ's kingship and priesthood is superior to Melchizedek's.
Superior according to Hebrews 7:11-28. Superior because Christ could save completely - Hebrews 7:25
Please notice Hebrews 7:12 saying a change of the Law. Tithing was part of that Law.
- Christ is the end of the Law according to Romans 10:4
The Old Law was blotted out according to Colossians 2:14-16. See also Galatians 3:13.
God made a 'Covenant of Circumcision' with Abraham - Genesis 17:9-14 - which does Not say everlasting.
Does that mean that covenant or contract is permanent, or that it ended with the Law.
Is Abraham's covenant or contract with Abimelech still in effect - Genesis 21:22-34
Although he did say "I was hungry and you fed me"
But good post!
I find something interesting in Hebrew 7:
6 This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.
7 And without doubt the lesser is blessed by the greater.
8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.
Yes, Jesus is greater than Melchizedek, who is a shadow of things to come... but, IMV (bold), there is only one who is declared to be living and that is Jesus.
What changed was the priesthood but, IMV, not the recognition of God in the midst of ones blessings. I believe the first-fruits is that recognition of God in your life. It also is a good thermometer of whether or not money has us or whether God has our hearts.
I have found, by and large, that those who resist the most on the tithe are the ones who give less, help less and serve less. It is, IMV, because the heart is not secured in God.
Agree, the heart should be 'secured in God' for according to 2 Corinthians 9:7 God loves a 'cheerful ' giver.
And a giver can be giving in $$$, but also be giving in time and energy.
For example: some foreign missionaries who have left their ' land ' (homeland) - Matthew 19:29, would be giving more than 10% of their 'time and energy' but might Not have enough to give a monetary 10%.
Absolutely NO argument here!!!
Although he did say "I was hungry and you fed me"
Thank you, and yes Jesus did say 'in connection to his coming glory time' that " I was hungry and you fed me " according to Matthew 25:35-36.
Both the figurative 'sheep' and 'goats' respond to Jesus, and Jesus' reply in verse 40 is by what they did (or did Not do) to his spiritual 'brothers' is the basis for Jesus' judgement. So, to me, it is Not what we are doing for mankind in general, but what we do for those of Jesus' spiritual ' brothers ' even the least of his spiritual ' brothers '.
- Matthew 25:40,45.
So, how we react when we hear about God's kingdom message being proclaimed as mentioned at Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20 and how we treat those people proclaiming that good news gospel message. - Daniel 2:44
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I suspect Paul had a stroke.....
the blinding light that took him off his horse....his recovery
and his radical change in person.....
nice that he recovered as he did.....
too bad the Church leaned so hard to his writings
instead of the parables of the Carpenter
LOL - I think a thief just robbed the truth of Paul
Thief
Rogue Theologian
and I go to pay Peter
There are many difficiult verses in the Bible but that doesn't meant they are wrong.