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Is Jesus God and How Not to Use Hebrew

Zsr1973

Member
sandy whitelinger said:
Here is my thought in a nutshell. i don't speak or claim to understand Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. Neither do I believe that those here who claim to have some understanding of original languages have a greater understanding of original languages or theology to be able to translate better than those who translated it in the first place.

It has been my observation that those who presently try to use original languages distort (either purposely or unwittingly) the plain English understanding.

I respect your faith in Christianity.

In terms of language, it is actually the english that has been distorted. Because you have faith in the finished english product that we call the bible today, even if you found that the true hebrew and greek story was different from what you believe, you would not accept it. the truth is that in the old kingdom, both men and deity received the same titles because both hebrews and early christians believed deities (or gods) were beings like us.

Adonai - Aramic/Hebrew: "My Master"
and Eloheem - Aramic/Hebrew: "these beings; gods"
were at some point used for humans as well as deitiy in the bible. So it is up to you to believe the translator when he made the choice in whether it refered to the creator or not. Men are not trustworthy (especially religious men), that is why many people look to the originals to see the true story for themselves. If your story does not match with the original story, someone has lied to you.

Elyon El (the Most High) is the only name I know that is excusive to "the Most High". He was introduced to Abram by melchizedec (the same one whose order jesus was known to have joined in the book of Hebrews) in genesis 14:19.

People do not realize that when the bible speaks of people meeting or talking to Eloh or Eloheem or Jehovah, it is speaking about angelic beings of different ranks who represent God in different manners. Think, why in Revelation, jesus' book that he gave to John, is it almost all about the actions of the angels and not God? It has always been the angels interacting with man. the devil had a fight with angels, not god, over humans. he is not God's enemy, he is our enemy. the problems in Christianity today are due to bad translations by men who simply didn't know the true stories.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Zsr1973 said:
I respect your faith in Christianity.

In terms of language, it is actually the english that has been distorted. Because you have faith in the finished english product that we call the bible today, even if you found that the true hebrew and greek story was different from what you believe, you would not accept it. the truth is that in the old kingdom, both men and deity received the same titles because both hebrews and early christians believed deities (or gods) were beings like us.

Adonai - Aramic/Hebrew: "My Master"
and Eloheem - Aramic/Hebrew: "these beings; gods"
were at some point used for humans as well as deitiy in the bible. So it is up to you to believe the translator when he made the choice in whether it refered to the creator or not. Men are not trustworthy (especially religious men), that is why many people look to the originals to see the true story for themselves. If your story does not match with the original story, someone has lied to you.

Elyon El (the Most High) is the only name I know that is excusive to "the Most High". He was introduced to Abram by melchizedec (the same one whose order jesus was known to have joined in the book of Hebrews) in genesis 14:19.

People do not realize that when the bible speaks of people meeting or talking to Eloh or Eloheem or Jehovah, it is speaking about angelic beings of different ranks who represent God in different manners. Think, why in Revelation, jesus' book that he gave to John, is it almost all about the actions of the angels and not God? It has always been the angels interacting with man. the devil had a fight with angels, not god, over humans. he is not God's enemy, he is our enemy. the problems in Christianity today are due to bad translations by men who simply didn't know the true stories.

You're speaking in generalities. Do you have a specific case in mind or do you have some agreement or disagreement with the case I offered.
 

Zsr1973

Member
sandy whitelinger said:
You're speaking in generalities. Do you have a specific case in mind or do you have some agreement or disagreement with the case I offered.

I will give an example of what I mean then.. I'll start with Genesis 2:8 since it has God doing the actions "a being" would do, not the ultimate Creator:

Genesis 2:8
And the Lord God (Yahuwa Eloheem - Yahuwa specifies a specific deity from amongst a group of angelic beings, called Eloheem 'these deities' )

planted a garden (the Creator doesn't need to do garden work, however angelic beings who can be as physical as you or me do not have the power to create, only to make things from whats already created)

eastward in Eden and there he put the man who he had formed (the being responsible for Adam's existence didn't create him out of thin air, he shaped him from the Adamah, a word which could either mean "ground" or "those of earth". The translator did the deciding of the meaning for you from his own beliefs which were incorrect. We now know people did exist before 10,000 years ago if you follow bible time, or 49,000 years ago which is the true time of Adam's creation and coincidentally the first appearance of homosapiens.)

---I also want to use Genesis 3:8 as an example because looking at it from the original meaning will explain one of the apparent biggest contradictions about God as he is beliefed to be today. Watch:

Genesis 3:8
And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden (the sound of a Yahuwa of the Eloheem, again this is one specific angelic being from amongst a group whose specific job was handling the creation of a new type of man on the earth. It makes sense that a physical being would be walking around in a garden, not the same ultimate Creator who created our universe.)

in the cool of the day (does it really makes sense that the same Creator who sustains the universe is walking around enjoying the shade on Earth?)

and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (So what does it say about this God, being that Adam & Eve actually thought they could hide from him? Obviously they were dealing with beings who they thought would not see them. Remember, they knew these beings personally. This doesn't show an omnipresent God, it shows a being who has a definite place and time like us, a mere being following the laws of nature not controlling them. Considering the fact that this scripture is suppossedly a divine revelation from God to Moses, why would he make himself look less than himself, unless the truth is as it says in the original writing, that these beings were not THE God, just angelic Gods doing THE God's work?)

I hope these two examples spell out my meaning clearly. Christians should demand accuracy from their leadership. Of course, the leadership has no reason to pursue a course of action that may show that some of what they teach is wrong. But ultimately it is your soul that is in jeopardy from false meanings and bad translations.
 

wmam

Active Member
Zsr1973 said:
I will give an example of what I mean then.. I'll start with Genesis 2:8 since it has God doing the actions "a being" would do, not the ultimate Creator:

Genesis 2:8
And the Lord God (Yahuwa Eloheem - Yahuwa specifies a specific deity from amongst a group of angelic beings, called Eloheem 'these deities' )

planted a garden (the Creator doesn't need to do garden work, however angelic beings who can be as physical as you or me do not have the power to create, only to make things from whats already created)

eastward in Eden and there he put the man who he had formed (the being responsible for Adam's existence didn't create him out of thin air, he shaped him from the Adamah, a word which could either mean "ground" or "those of earth". The translator did the deciding of the meaning for you from his own beliefs which were incorrect. We now know people did exist before 10,000 years ago if you follow bible time, or 49,000 years ago which is the true time of Adam's creation and coincidentally the first appearance of homosapiens.)

---I also want to use Genesis 3:8 as an example because looking at it from the original meaning will explain one of the apparent biggest contradictions about God as he is beliefed to be today. Watch:

Genesis 3:8
And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden (the sound of a Yahuwa of the Eloheem, again this is one specific angelic being from amongst a group whose specific job was handling the creation of a new type of man on the earth. It makes sense that a physical being would be walking around in a garden, not the same ultimate Creator who created our universe.)

in the cool of the day (does it really makes sense that the same Creator who sustains the universe is walking around enjoying the shade on Earth?)

and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (So what does it say about this God, being that Adam & Eve actually thought they could hide from him? Obviously they were dealing with beings who they thought would not see them. Remember, they knew these beings personally. This doesn't show an omnipresent God, it shows a being who has a definite place and time like us, a mere being following the laws of nature not controlling them. Considering the fact that this scripture is suppossedly a divine revelation from God to Moses, why would he make himself look less than himself, unless the truth is as it says in the original writing, that these beings were not THE God, just angelic Gods doing THE God's work?)

I hope these two examples spell out my meaning clearly. Christians should demand accuracy from their leadership. Of course, the leadership has no reason to pursue a course of action that may show that some of what they teach is wrong. But ultimately it is your soul that is in jeopardy from false meanings and bad translations.

WOW!!!!!!!

What a breath of fresh air that just poured in upon us being the Word of YAH. Hallelu-YAH!

I agree with all that you have stated in the last two post here but have to put exception on the time line of man until I have further research. Otherwise, the contextual understanding of your example is right on point. I think I will search out your other post from other threads in hopes for further edification. Frubals to you for the praise of the Most High YAH Elohim.
 

Zsr1973

Member
wmam said:
WOW!!!!!!!

What a breath of fresh air that just poured in upon us being the Word of YAH. Hallelu-YAH!

I agree with all that you have stated in the last two post here but have to put exception on the time line of man until I have further research. Otherwise, the contextual understanding of your example is right on point. I think I will search out your other post from other threads in hopes for further edification. Frubals to you for the praise of the Most High YAH Elohim.

Thank you. When I say bible time like the mistaken one, I mean the believed bible time not the true bible time. Here's how we know that bible time in El's Torah doesn't match up with gregorian time:
1. The older stories have people living in the hundreds of years. It could be true, but the fact is that those writers didn't use our unit of time. So as the story moved from culture to culture the unit changed and the stories became distorted.
2. God confounded the languages many centuries before Moses was born, so Moses could not have been speaking or writing the only language the bible has people speaking that could be considered Holy and that is God's language. The language he was speaking to Adam which passed down unaltered as the bible has it from father to son until God confounds the language himself. What that means is that the bible couldn't have been written in God's true language but in a language of confusion after the tower of babel.
3. God created the sun during the first day, but the sun already has to exist in order to have a day at all. See the problem? So the days that God was going by were not human days here on earth. The earth wasn't even created yet according to the bible.

These are the mistakes that happen when a religion's clergy cannot read the actual language of the scripture. The problem is not in God giving us the stories, its what we do with the stories after he reveals them to us. The same thing happened in Islam. It is time for us to know the truth.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Zsr1973 said:
I will give an example of what I mean then.. I'll start with Genesis 2:8 since it has God doing the actions "a being" would do, not the ultimate Creator:

Genesis 2:8
And the Lord God (Yahuwa Eloheem - Yahuwa specifies a specific deity from amongst a group of angelic beings, called Eloheem 'these deities' )

planted a garden (the Creator doesn't need to do garden work, however angelic beings who can be as physical as you or me do not have the power to create, only to make things from whats already created)

eastward in Eden and there he put the man who he had formed (the being responsible for Adam's existence didn't create him out of thin air, he shaped him from the Adamah, a word which could either mean "ground" or "those of earth". The translator did the deciding of the meaning for you from his own beliefs which were incorrect. We now know people did exist before 10,000 years ago if you follow bible time, or 49,000 years ago which is the true time of Adam's creation and coincidentally the first appearance of homosapiens.)

---I also want to use Genesis 3:8 as an example because looking at it from the original meaning will explain one of the apparent biggest contradictions about God as he is beliefed to be today. Watch:

Genesis 3:8
And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden (the sound of a Yahuwa of the Eloheem, again this is one specific angelic being from amongst a group whose specific job was handling the creation of a new type of man on the earth. It makes sense that a physical being would be walking around in a garden, not the same ultimate Creator who created our universe.)

in the cool of the day (does it really makes sense that the same Creator who sustains the universe is walking around enjoying the shade on Earth?)

and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (So what does it say about this God, being that Adam & Eve actually thought they could hide from him? Obviously they were dealing with beings who they thought would not see them. Remember, they knew these beings personally. This doesn't show an omnipresent God, it shows a being who has a definite place and time like us, a mere being following the laws of nature not controlling them. Considering the fact that this scripture is suppossedly a divine revelation from God to Moses, why would he make himself look less than himself, unless the truth is as it says in the original writing, that these beings were not THE God, just angelic Gods doing THE God's work?)

I hope these two examples spell out my meaning clearly. Christians should demand accuracy from their leadership. Of course, the leadership has no reason to pursue a course of action that may show that some of what they teach is wrong. But ultimately it is your soul that is in jeopardy from false meanings and bad translations.

It's good to see that someone can actually back up their thoughts with something. Good job. Before I address this could you give what you believe to be the correct translation of the passage you offered (without the paranthetical insight, at least for now).
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
:areyoucra
Zsr1973 said:
Thank you. When I say bible time like the mistaken one, I mean the believed bible time not the true bible time. Here's how we know that bible time in El's Torah doesn't match up with gregorian time:
1. The older stories have people living in the hundreds of years. It could be true, but the fact is that those writers didn't use our unit of time. So as the story moved from culture to culture the unit changed and the stories became distorted.
2. God confounded the languages many centuries before Moses was born, so Moses could not have been speaking or writing the only language the bible has people speaking that could be considered Holy and that is God's language. The language he was speaking to Adam which passed down unaltered as the bible has it from father to son until God confounds the language himself. What that means is that the bible couldn't have been written in God's true language but in a language of confusion after the tower of babel.
3. God created the sun during the first day, but the sun already has to exist in order to have a day at all. See the problem? So the days that God was going by were not human days here on earth. The earth wasn't even created yet according to the bible.

This is pure speculation (on your part?).

Zsr1973 said:
These are the mistakes that happen when a religion's clergy cannot read the actual language of the scripture.......

I'm sure that the people who translated the original languages could actually read the original languages. They didn't make it up as they went along.
 

Zsr1973

Member
sandy whitelinger said:
:areyoucra

This is pure speculation (on your part?).



I'm sure that the people who translated the original languages could actually read the original languages. They didn't make it up as they went along.

My friend, I respect your faith and do not wish to insult what you believe in. Instead I seek to clarify. I am not saying the bible story is false. I'm saying that our English version is incorrect at its essence.

I'm not speculating.

1. They did not use the Gregorian calender 4,000 - 10,000 years ago.
2. If you believe the timeline of the bible then just read Genesis. God did confound the languages way before Moses recorded At Tawrah.
3: Genesis 1:3-5
" And God said,"Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day (day and night are a mortal perception that can only happen on a planet. In space, the sun never stops shining) and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and morning were the first day."

----If you read this quote, you see that the evening and morning were there before the earth was created...

Genesis 1: 9,10
"And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters calles he seas: and God saw that it was good."

It wasn't until later in the bible that he created the earth, according to the English translation. So according to the council of King James, the days and nights were here before the earth itself was here. So according to their translation, either God had already created the earth and he was making changes, or he was going by some other unit of time that he was calling days and nights different from our days and nights. It would have to be different because we depend on the earth's rotation to give us our days and nights. Are you saying God was lowering himself to our limited, mistaken mortal perceptions instead of teaching us the truth? Which according to Christianity, the Word IS the ultimate truth? I do have the answer by the way...
 

Zsr1973

Member
sandy whitelinger said:
It's good to see that someone can actually back up their thoughts with something. Good job. Before I address this could you give what you believe to be the correct translation of the passage you offered (without the paranthetical insight, at least for now).

Thank you and yes:

Genesis 2:8
"And Yahuwa of the Eloheem planted a Garden eastward in Eden, and there he put Ha-Adam "the Adam" whom he had formed.: (not created)

here is a better translation with the hidden meanings revealed, given to us students by the Master Teacher Malachi Z York:

"And a Yahuwah of the Eloheem ordered Arazu to build the foundation of the garden and Ashnan, Thukkiac who came from the school of the peacock under Murdoq, for the planting of a special Enclosed Garden of Delight and Pleasure. And over there he placed Ha-Adam "the Adam" Kadmon, whom he cloned."

Remembering that these were the same stories Abraham and his people had been taught, you can find many of the clarifications in the Sumerian (home of Abraham who received a Torah of his own Genesis

[Genesis 26:5
"Because Abraham Shawmah 'obeyed' my Qole 'voice' and kept my Mishmehreth 'charge' and my Mitsaw 'Commandments' and my 'Ordinance' (statutes) and my Torah-Law.] --it states that Abraham had a Torah before Moses..

-
-

Genesis 3:8
"Then they heard the voice of a Yahuwa of the Eloheem walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man (Zakar) and his wife (Nekaybaw) hid themselves from the presence (face of) Yahuwa of the Eloheem amongst the trees of the garden."

Considering that this is a plagerism from the earlier tablets from the land of Abraham, one cannot get a true meaning of this story without consulting those tablets. When they heard His voice, they tried to hide, but there was nowhere to hide. They became tangled by the trees and that particular Eloheem noticed them and called out to them.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Zsr1973 said:
3: Genesis 1:3-5
" And God said,"Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day (day and night are a mortal perception that can only happen on a planet. In space, the sun never stops shining) and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and morning were the first day."

----If you read this quote, you see that the evening and morning were there before the earth was created......

Try reading a bit before that: " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1 KJV

Zsr1973 said:
Genesis 1: 9,10
"And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters calles he seas: and God saw that it was good."

It wasn't until later in the bible that he created the earth, according to the English translation. So according to the council of King James, the days and nights were here before the earth itself was here. So according to their translation, either God had already created the earth and he was making changes, or he was going by some other unit of time that he was calling days and nights different from our days and nights. It would have to be different because we depend on the earth's rotation to give us our days and nights. Are you saying God was lowering himself to our limited, mistaken mortal perceptions instead of teaching us the truth? Which according to Christianity, the Word IS the ultimate truth? I do have the answer by the way...

According to Genesis 1:1 and the council of King James what you are saying is misinformation.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Zsr1973 said:
Genesis 2:8
"And Yahuwa of the Eloheem planted a Garden eastward in Eden, and there he put Ha-Adam "the Adam" whom he had formed.: (not created)

No problem there (except for the parenthetical insert). That some things were created and some things were formed from what was there is obvious in the English translation. That Adam was created is also evident in the English translation:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27 KJV.

That things created are also formed is not a contridiction.

Zsr1973 said:
here is a better translation with the hidden meanings revealed, given to us students by the Master Teacher Malachi Z York:

"And a Yahuwah of the Eloheem ordered Arazu to build the foundation of the garden and Ashnan, Thukkiac who came from the school of the peacock under Murdoq, for the planting of a special Enclosed Garden of Delight and Pleasure. And over there he placed Ha-Adam "the Adam" Kadmon, whom he cloned."

First this about your "Master Teacher" from http://www.masonicinfo.com/york.htm

"He claimed to be an extraterrestrial being from the 19th galaxy called Illyuwn, Malachi (born as Dwight) York. Now this self-proclaimed leader of his creation, the United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors, will likely spend the rest of his life in US federal prison having received a 135 year sentence.
[FONT=verdana, Arial, Helvetica]During 2003 he admitted to multiple state charges of child abuse, kidnapping, and more. Engaging in a variety of tactics to avoid prosecution, he claimed that he was an American Indian using a genealogy so weak as to cause any serious historian fits of laughter. In another ploy, he withdrew his guilty plea and chose to stand trial on federal charges - where he ultimately lost."[/FONT]​


Perhaps you could find a more credible source.​

At this point I might conclude that what you offer is an excellent example of the point I made with this thread. Thank you so much.​
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Zsr1973 said:
Genesis 2:8
And the Lord God (Yahuwa Eloheem - Yahuwa specifies a specific deity from amongst a group of angelic beings, called Eloheem 'these deities' ).

By the way,I like this it's starting to sound like a trinity.
 

alexander garcia

Active Member
Hi, I don't know about all the worlds languages, HAHA not even close I have a hard time with English at times, but isn't LORD only an English term? Well I can't think of anyone else that had lords. In fact I'll get people to say that nummerous words mean lord but no it is only an English word so you can't have people using a word before it's exsistance. You don't even have to be able to read other languages just go the bibles in other languages and see if you can find lord anywhere. The words you are speaking about mean master.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Zsr1973 said:
Genesis 2:8
"And Yahuwa of the Eloheem planted a Garden eastward in Eden.....

Now if this is what you are offering as a correct translation let me say this about that. I will qualify this by saying that I don't know squat about Hebrew and what little I know of languages comes from high school Latin. Now in the King James the phrase is "Lord God" with "Lord" being an adjective that describes "God." "God" is the subject of the sentence.

Your translation has made "Yahuwa" (ie. "Lord" from the KJV) the subject and turned "God" from the KJV into "of the Eloheem" which I believe is a prepositional phrase. It seems to me that if the original translators made that big of an error, changing the subject of a sentence into a phrase used as an adjective, then that error would have been caught and corrected long before the final editing phase.

I can only conclude from this that you are finding information that is just plain hooey. Again, I think you are illustrating my point just nicely: beware when people run to the original languages, they might be trying to blow smoke up your hinder part.
 

wmam

Active Member
ZSR1973...........

I understand enough Hebrew and have been able to use the Scripture program I have on my computer to see where what you say is the correct translation where it pertains to the name of the Most High (though I disagree with your conclusion of that name but hey) and that of the title of the Family. For one to admit not to know anything at all about a certain language but then say what you are saying isn't correct is quite sottish, to say the least, if they do not have some working knowledge of the language in question.

As my Moreh has told me........."Iron sharpens iron." And continuing with the debates here and other places have taught me that simple rule.

Shalom aleichem ahkee.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
wmam said:
ZSR1973...........

I understand enough Hebrew and have been able to use the Scripture program I have on my computer to see where what you say is the correct translation where it pertains to the name of the Most High (though I disagree with your conclusion of that name but hey) and that of the title of the Family. For one to admit not to know anything at all about a certain language but then say what you are saying isn't correct is quite sottish, to say the least, if they do not have some working knowledge of the language in question.

As my Moreh has told me........."Iron sharpens iron." And continuing with the debates here and other places have taught me that simple rule.

Shalom aleichem ahkee.

So educate this poor sot (maybe you dropped a "c" I'm not sure). Are subjects of a sentence and phrase usage ambigous enough in Hebrew to be able to make such a mistake easily?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
sandy whitelinger said:
So educate this poor sot (maybe you dropped a "c" I'm not sure). Are subjects of a sentence and phrase usage ambigous enough in Hebrew to be able to make such a mistake easily?

I don't think so.

Where Hebrew is ambigous, we just make up an interpretation.:cool:
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
angellous_evangellous said:
I don't think so.

Which is exactly why I'm wondering how one translation could use a noun as the subject of a sentence and then another use the same Hebrew word as part of a prepositional phrase used as an adjective.

Perhaps a good pentacostal tongues interpreter is needed. Maybe Ken Copeland is available.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
sandy whitelinger said:
Which is exactly why I'm wondering how one translation could use a noun as the subject of a sentence and then another use the same Hebrew word as part of a prepositional phrase used as an adjective.

Perhaps a good pentacostal tongues interpreter is needed. Maybe Ken Copeland is available.

There's no such confusion. The confusion is derived from your misunderstanding of the difficulty of bringing the many Hebrew designations for God into the English language. It's not that the Hebrew is ambiguous, but the English can't carry the precise translation of the Hebrew without modification, which seeems to your eyes to affect English grammar.

I suggest that you read the preface/introductions to the various translations. It explains how the translators render the various names of God.
 
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