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The Gospels. Any 'Difficult' verses?

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi Savage.....
My dictionary defines 'disciple' as a pupil or follower.
Maybe Jesus just needed thousands of followers? I ythink that to achieve his mission in Galilee and/or Israel he needed a million followers. :)
Are you putting your dictionary ahead of the writer of Matthew 28:19 like every other lazy brained person? You are not lazy.

If you look at the oldest manuscript copy can you see like I can see that at one time disciple was a VERB?

μαθητεύσατε
mathéteuó: to be a disciple, to make a disciple
Original Word: μαθητεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: mathéteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (math-ayt-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I make disciples, make into disciples
Definition: I make a disciple of, train in discipleship; pass: I am trained, discipled, instructed.


What Matthew 28:19 actually says is

Jesus: "I am going but you keep being instructed by me as you go to ALL the nations, baptizing and teaching..."

Let me tell you, please. There IS a difference between being instructed (what it says) and being the Instructor (what it doesn't say). I realize that it does say to teach. But, somewhere else it says JESUS is the teacher. So, it is alright to let other people see that Jesus is teaching you. (I haven't met anyone like that yet) But being a disciple in front of other people you will indeed draw someone else to discipleship THE VERB!
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Did you know that there is not a single reference to Adam or his wife ever making one sacrifice or any admission or remorse for their sin. They knew that what they did could not be forgiven. There was no basis upon which it could even be offered. There was no sinful nature to blame and God never promised them any other life. Their sentence was death....that's it.


LOL – much liberty here with no scriptural reference to back it within the whole of the Bible. Absence doesn’t mean it didn’t happen… no less than the absence of angels returning without clothes doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

However, mine does have support:
It was the Serpent that had no recourse - Jonathon Targum (and many others) Gen 3:15 "And I will place enmity between you and the woman, and between the offspring of your sons and the offspring of her sons. And it will happen: when the sons of the woman will observe the precepts of the Torah, they will aim to strike you on the head; and when they will forsake the precepts of the Torah, you will aim to bite them in the heel. But for them there will be a remedy; whereas for you there will be no remedy. And they will be ready to make a crushing with the heel in the of King Messiah."


Abel learned about the sacrificing of lambs… it is logical to believe he was taught by his father and mother.


Adam was not given a soul, but "became" one with the breath of life. The soul that sinned died. (Ezekiel 18:4) I believe that Adam went back to the dust, just as God said he would.

Doesn’t change the work of Jesus—but I would disagree with your assessment…


Adam did become one with the breath of life and then became a sinner like unto us. His body went to dust… but he DID receive a soul when God breathed into him.


I can see why you might want to make the correlation but it is more than what is stated in scripture. Adam and Eve's garments were not because they were righteous....they were just the opposite. The garments were a symbol of their shame and sin.

Yet there is no scripture to substantiate your position. And yet again, my position (a shadow of things to come) has validity because it said so.


The three angels that visited Abraham at Mamre (and the two who continued onto Sodom to rescue Lot, Genesis 18 & 19) were fully clothed humans who ate the meals prepared for them by both Abraham and Lot. They had to materialize those bodies with clothing as nakedness was not something that God's worshippers viewed as modest. (Genesis 9:20-23)

If the angels materialized with clothing, then when they returned to the spirit realm, their clothing would obviously have dematerialized along with their bodies.

Logical assumption. I yield.



God's servants had very little knowledge of the promised seed who was to come. They did not have knowledge of who the players were in the first prophesy in Genesis 3:15.


I disagree. God was still speaking to Adam and Eve. Genesis curse and redemption was clear… clear enough for Abel to sacrifice the lamb representing Jesus.


The unfolding of that sacred mystery was to be revealed gradually over time. Even in the first century, Jesus' disciples did not fully understand what the kingdom was, where it would be set up, and how they would fit into the arrangement. As far as the Jews were concerned, the Kingdom of God was to be established on earth by his Messiah. Not until Pentecost were the details revealed to them by holy spirit.

That is true. The TOTAL revelation was gradual. The specifics was gradual. But Abraham saw that day and for him it was a complete revelation.


The sacrifice of the Christ was not required until humans sinned. So if Adam and his wife, (as free agents) had just obeyed their Creator and not partaken of the fruit, Jesus' sacrifice would never have been needed. Adam and his wife would still be here enjoying everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth with all their offspring.

We are all free agents. But, yes, the sacrifice would not have been necessary..


The "founding of the world" was the "cosmos" meaning the world of mankind descended from Adam.When sin entered into the world, then and only then was redemption necessary. God never planned for them to disobey him, but free will and the intelligence to use it wisely, is what made humankind like their Maker.

Cosmos also means: 3the world, the universe 4the circle of the earth, the earth


God does love the world, but he is not tied to the human race by sentiment. His justice requires that his children obey him in all things. Those who want to rebel, will be evicted from life. Did God love the world of Noah's day? Does he love the world of today, which is also "filled with violence"? (Matthew 24:37-39)

Christ's sacrifice is offered to all, but not all will qualify to receive it. (Luke 13:24; Matthew 7:13-14)

I’m not disagreeing about the consequences of those who, through free will, decide to rebel. But it does not change that His desire was that “None should perish”. His love was still there as His perfect judgment will still be executed.


His justice requires to that children obey but, as James said, His mercy rejoices over judgment. His grace saves because of love.

I was just checking to make sure.....the mechanics of the ransom sacrifice of the Christ are not well understood in the churches. I know that I never knew what it was all about....I was so grateful for someone explaining it to me. Everything makes sense now.

J And the more I learn, the more I realize that there is still so much more to learn.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They think Jesus is The Bible. They are being instructed bt The Bible. That makes them disciples of THE BIBLE But, Jesus had said that we are to be instructed by HIM
mathéteuó: to be a disciple, to make a disciple
Original Word: μαθητεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: mathéteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (math-ayt-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I make disciples, make into disciples
Definition: I make a disciple of, train in discipleship; pass: I am trained, discipled, instructed. .
Matthew 28:19
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Hi Savage.....
My dictionary defines 'disciple' as a pupil or follower.
Maybe Jesus just needed thousands of followers? I ythink that to achieve his mission in Galilee and/or Israel he needed a million followers. :)
No... just 11 (and they left too, for a few days). The 11 brought in the millions. :)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That is a research for me, to find a list of what remained 'in' and what was thrown 'out'.

The number of times that Christuians have dived out of range by answering ,'Not in the new-covenant', and there's me, elephant gun in hand, and nothing to aim at. :D
LOL...

You could start with no more sacrificing of animals. At least it takes a knife out of a hand.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No... just 11 (and they left too, for a few days). The 11 brought in the millions. :)
Actually billions and those are not disciples of Jesus. They are disciples of the story of Jesus.

I think that to consider the person and the story of the person the same is foolish.
How would anyone consider themselves the same as their story?

A story is what a person is on the outside. To be a disciple is to learn the teacher on the inside.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
According to The Book, Jesus said, "be careful you are not misled" and "make disciples".

Really? If the ones who were supposedly commissioned by The Lord to be making disciples
can themselves be misled, what HOPE is there for anyone?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Actually billions and those are not disciples of Jesus. They are disciples of the story of Jesus.

I think that to consider the person and the story of the person the same is foolish.
How would anyone consider themselves the same as their story?

A story is what a person is on the outside. To be a disciple is to learn the teacher on the inside.
I think it is a good thing to distinguish the difference between a believer and a disciple. Your definition of a disciple is good!
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Are you putting your dictionary ahead of the writer of Matthew 28:19 like every other lazy brained person? You are not lazy.

If you look at the oldest manuscript copy can you see like I can see that at one time disciple was a VERB?

μαθητεύσατε
mathéteuó: to be a disciple, to make a disciple
Original Word: μαθητεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: mathéteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (math-ayt-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I make disciples, make into disciples
Definition: I make a disciple of, train in discipleship; pass: I am trained, discipled, instructed.


What Matthew 28:19 actually says is

Jesus: "I am going but you keep being instructed by me as you go to ALL the nations, baptizing and teaching..."

Let me tell you, please. There IS a difference between being instructed (what it says) and being the Instructor (what it doesn't say). I realize that it does say to teach. But, somewhere else it says JESUS is the teacher. So, it is alright to let other people see that Jesus is teaching you. (I haven't met anyone like that yet) But being a disciple in front of other people you will indeed draw someone else to discipleship THE VERB!


.... please Miss...... I'm only a pagan Miss..... :eek:


:D
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
.... please Miss...... I'm only a pagan Miss..... :eek:


:D
OK. LOL. Can you see, like I can see, that they are more like pagan than they are like God's um people? They seem to not be able to care any less about Heaven's messages.

I am not saying that I am a messenger, but I can imagine how the real messengers might be feeling.
How? I suppose I am awake.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I know they didn't have envelopes back there, but something happened...
Luke 8:2bMary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out;
3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.
John 13:29 Since Judas was their treasurer, some thought Jesus was telling him to go and pay for the food or to give some money to the poor.
I do know that you still can be taught without being charged :)

Very interesting observation ^ above ^.
Right, No collection plates, and No money mentioned. Support was out of their means, or their belongings.
Since there were No hotels perhaps those women could have accommodated in the way a bed and breakfast might help with shelter. They were helping those of Luke 8:1 who were preaching throughout that area.
They could have used their time and energy by shopping, preparing and serving meals in order to keep them in their preaching assignment. They could have even helped them by washing, making or mending their clothing.
So, they were helping them so that time would Not be taken away from the ministry. - Luke 4:43
Today we can also help missionaries and others to keep preaching as the apostle Paul did and others.
Any talent we posses can be more than just monetary support but helping such ones with their cars, etc.
Remember: there was No paid clergy class. Even Paul worked making tents - Acts of the Apostles 18:3.
We can heed Paul's advice as mentioned at 1 Thessalonians 2:9 to combine secular work with preaching.

Judas in connection to the money box was for the purpose to: support the ministry.
Any surplus could aid others who were poor.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
the garden had a purpose....
the alteration of body and spirit
it served that purpose and was dismantled
(angel with sword)
we won't be going back

To me, God's original purpose is that we all be descendants of Adam and Eve - Genesis 1:28
If they had Not broken God's Law we would still be here on Earth forever ( everlasting life on Earth )
If we are Not ' going back ' (paradisical Eden) then what would be the point or purpose of death ending on Earth.
Our last enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing according to 1 Corinthians 15:26.
No more death on Earth - Isaiah 25:8
So, as Adam's 'body and spirit' (soul) was all of him, when Jesus' comes he will reverse or undo all the damage that Satan and Adam brought upon mankind by way of a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to life on Earth.
If Not ' going back ' then why were ALL of Jesus' resurrections fleshly, physical resurrections.
Jesus was giving us a small sample, a preview, a coming attraction, of what he will be doing on a grand global scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
But now this is why some have reservations about Christianity because in the beginning it wasn't meant for all of us, Jesus was preaching to the Jews. I don't belong to his group either.

Jews were given the first choice, then Jesus expanded the preaching commission to the Samaritans, then Gentiles.
That is why the whole world ( all nations ) are included at Matthew 24:14 and Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
We all belong to human kind, and we should all be both: human and kind.
The kind figurative ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37 come from all walks of life.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
In the old testament scripture says God told Israelites to go kill the Pagans. I'm sorry but theres no excuse for it. Christians in history have gone to war with pagans a lot including destroying the library at Alexandria which is really really sad. Considering the fact that the library held most of the worlds leading knowledge in science it shows me what Christians think about knowledge, the fact that they don't hold valuable information and knowledge of the time.

To me Leviticus 19:33-34 says to love strangers Not kill them.
War is an 'execution' (Not killing) for the sake of the righteous.

False Christians developed after the end of the first century according to Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.
Jesus never instructed destroying libraries, Nor even getting involved in the 'issues of the day' between the Jews verses the Romans. Genuine Christians were and are always neutral in the affairs of the world.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Very interesting observation ^ above ^.
Right, No collection plates, and No money mentioned. Support was out of their means, or their belongings.
Since there were No hotels perhaps those women could have accommodated in the way a bed and breakfast might help with shelter. They were helping those of Luke 8:1 who were preaching throughout that area.
They could have used their time and energy by shopping, preparing and serving meals in order to keep them in their preaching assignment. They could have even helped them by washing, making or mending their clothing.
So, they were helping them so that time would Not be taken away from the ministry. - Luke 4:43
Today we can also help missionaries and others to keep preaching as the apostle Paul did and others.
Any talent we posses can be more than just monetary support but helping such ones with their cars, etc.
Remember: there was No paid clergy class. Even Paul worked making tents - Acts of the Apostles 18:3.
We can heed Paul's advice as mentioned at 1 Thessalonians 2:9 to combine secular work with preaching.

Judas in connection to the money box was for the purpose to: support the ministry.
Any surplus could aid others who were poor.
I'm sure they did that too. But they had money to give to the poor (as noted previously) they had a treasurer (as noted previously) -- you don't use a treasurer to manage washing or mending clothing.

There are many other scriptures that also dictates that money was available and therefore received.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I'm sure they did that too. But they had money to give to the poor (as noted previously) they had a treasurer (as noted previously) -- you don't use a treasurer to manage washing or mending clothing.
There are many other scriptures that also dictates that money was available and therefore received.

Agree, the point is that they did Not collect monies by passing collection plates. No paid clergy class.
Jesus' illustration of the neighborly good Samaritan is a good example of the use of one's funds or money.
Jesus was advocating helping on a one-on-one basis in showing love to another in need.
We should all broaden out in love helping another in his time of distress.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
To me, God's original purpose is that we all be descendants of Adam and Eve - Genesis 1:28
If they had Not broken God's Law we would still be here on Earth forever ( everlasting life on Earth )
If we are Not ' going back ' (paradisical Eden) then what would be the point or purpose of death ending on Earth.
Our last enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing according to 1 Corinthians 15:26.
No more death on Earth - Isaiah 25:8
So, as Adam's 'body and spirit' (soul) was all of him, when Jesus' comes he will reverse or undo all the damage that Satan and Adam brought upon mankind by way of a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to life on Earth.
If Not ' going back ' then why were ALL of Jesus' resurrections fleshly, physical resurrections.
Jesus was giving us a small sample, a preview, a coming attraction, of what he will be doing on a grand global scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth.
yep...everyone wants to live forever

but that can't happen in the chemistry
chemistry fails

it is the spirit everlasting that is .....everlasting
the body was made to form a unique spirit on each occasion
it does that

I believe we can survive the last breath and THEN live forever
with God and heaven

If I spend one years time with each spirit now in flesh
I will be busy for more than 7billion years in the next life
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Agree, the point is that they did Not collect monies by passing collection plates. No paid clergy class.
Jesus' illustration of the neighborly good Samaritan is a good example of the use of one's funds or money.
Jesus was advocating helping on a one-on-one basis in showing love to another in need.
We should all broaden out in love helping another in his time of distress.
I don't think I can agree with that position of no paid clergy class.

But a big YES on everything else.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Bar-tolomai (?)..... Son of Tolomai ? I never did discover his own name. Or did I .... I need to check my records.

You will have to help me out here OB....who are you talking about?

Two 'things': The disciples received 'in kind'. Hospitality Free, Services returned freely. There was an exchange. I do think that this could show that Jesus did not like dealing in money, but I don't think that this can be extended into what was happening when John's or Jesus's disciples baptised.
For Jews, hospitality was an expectation and a duty.

"In patriarchal times, though Egyptians and others practiced hospitality, the Semites were most notable for this quality. Care for the traveler was viewed as an integral part of living, and great was the courtesy extended the visitor, whether a stranger, a friend, a relative, or an invited guest.
From the Bible accounts we learn that hospitality was customarily extended to a traveler. He was greeted by a kiss, particularly if a relative. (Gen 29:13, 14) His feet were washed by a member of the household, usually a servant (Gen 18:4), and his animals were fed and cared for. (Gen 24:15-25, 29-33) He was often asked to stay for the night and sometimes even for several days. (Gen 24:54; 19:2, 3) The visitor was regarded as under the householder’s protection during his stay. (Gen 19:6-8; Judg. 19:22-24) On departure, he might be escorted partway on his journey.—Gen 18:16.
The importance with which the extending of hospitality was viewed is seen in Reuel’s remarks when his daughters spoke of the “Egyptian” traveler (actually Moses) who had helped them in watering their flock. Reuel exclaimed: “But where is he? Why is it that you have left the man behind? Call him, that he may eat bread.”—Ex 2:16-20."
(Insight Volume 1 Hospitality)


The cost of Remission of Sins at Jerusalem was massive, the cost of Remission of Sins in the Jordan was as nothing by comparison. Thosands of poor peasants flocked to the Jordan, and I expect that Temple takings crashed. That's all 'on the side' of your point, really.

Can you provide a source for this OB? What period is this referring to?

Although I would not expect any JW to find any difficulty with any writing in the bible, your passage above can go into my little book because Jesus is only offering services to Jews...... some Christians and loads of critics might see it that way, and so it is massively helpful as a 'proof' of origin... to them.

The Bible is the word of God.....if we did not believe that, then how could we accept anything that is written in it as truth?
It's either all truth as a product of God's spirit....or its all false. We alone decide how we feel about that.

Finding fault with the Bible and Christianity has become a passtime for some people. Perhaps the one accusing others of being deluded are themselves deluded by God's adversary. :shrug: (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

For me, Paul is all about Christianity, and for the faithful.
I am just a student of Historic Jesus, really.... :)

There is precious little history about Jesus found in any writings apart from the NT scriptures. Jesus never personally penned a thing, but his teachings, which he said all came from his God and Father, are still affecting the lives of those who are his disciples almost 2,000 years later.

Jesus was Jewish, sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" for a specific purpose....to reward Abraham's offspring in honor of a promise God made to him because of his faith. They had first option at becoming "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation"....but due to their rebellious nature, only a "remnant" would be saved. (Isaiah 10:22-23; Romans 9:27)

Interestingly, the promise made to Abraham included "all the nations of the earth" receiving a blessing, so it was always in God's plan to include them, (Genesis 22:15-18; Acts 3:25) but to honor his promise, Abraham's offspring had to be given first option at being included as kings and priests in the Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)

God said...."And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’” (Genesis 22:18)

The Gentiles came later and filled up the remaining places. Jesus used an illustration to explain this....

Luke 14:16-24:
“A man was spreading a grand evening meal, and he invited many. 17 He sent his slave out at the hour of the evening meal to say to the invited ones, ‘Come, because everything is now ready.’ 18 But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I bought a field and need to go out and see it; I ask you, have me excused.’ 19 And another said, ‘I bought five yoke of cattle and am going to examine them; I ask you, have me excused.’ 20 Still another said, ‘I just got married, and for this reason I cannot come.’ 21 So the slave came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house became angry and said to his slave, ‘Go out quickly to the main streets and the alleys of the city, and bring in here the poor and crippled and blind and lame.’ 22 In time the slave said, ‘Master, what you ordered has been done, and still there is room.’ 23 So the master said to the slave, ‘Go out to the roads and the lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled. 24 For I say to you, none of those men who were invited will taste my evening meal.’”

The arrogant Jewish leaders found every excuse NOT to accept the invitation, but the meal was to go ahead without them. They were replaced by ones whom the religious leaders would have considered unworthy.....not deserving of that honor. Finally those on the streets, regardless of who they were, were compelled to come in.

The Bible contains fascinating stories all designed to reinforce the Christian message. :)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I don't think I can agree with that position of no paid clergy class.

The "clergy" were actually an invention of the early church. There is no mention of an earthly priesthood for Christianity at all. This was a position that was in the future, in heaven. (Revelation 20:6) This class of men became the leaders of an apostate church with high sounding titles and fancy garb designed to make them stand out from the flock. No such distinction was ever made in the first century.
Even Jesus as the son of God did not wear any kind of clothing that distinguished him from his apostles or countrymen. On the night of his arrest, Judas had to kiss the man to identify the one they had come to arrest.

The clergy were raised above the common folk and their titles were designed to give them prestige and pride of place at any gatherings. Quite Pharisaical actually. :(

No Christian was to be raised above his brethren....as Jesus said..."all you are brothers"...he wasn't talking about fellow clergy, he was talking about fellow Christians in general. Those assigned as shepherds in the congregations were not to be given special dispensation as Paul made clear. Even as an apostle, he worked for his own keep so as NOT to place a financial burden on his brothers. (1 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-10)

I can assure you that no first century Christians dressed like this....
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