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The Gospels. Any 'Difficult' verses?

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That one was a nasty ol' Badger.
I'm a nice kind ol' Badger...... :)

There must be some verses in the gospels that you'd sooner not have to explain.... if so, I need 'em.
Their use will be quite benign, I promise./

This one bugs me. 1 cor 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

What's with the lovey dovey stuff. Where is the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Fire and brimstone.?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Again, there was a lesson. Jesus often used literal things to give added meaning to figurative admonition.

Matthew 21:18-22:
"While returning to the city early in the morning, he felt hungry. 19 He caught sight of a fig tree by the road and went to it, but he found nothing on it except leaves, and he said to it: “Let no fruit come from you ever again.” And the fig tree withered instantly. 20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed and said: “How is it that the fig tree withered instantly?” 21 In answer Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what I did to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen. 22 And all the things you ask in prayer, having faith, you will receive.

The fig tree was not producing fruit, it was all leaves and so Jesus cursed it. It withered up and died.

As Jesus explained.....“Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what I did to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen.  And all the things you ask in prayer, having faith, you will receive.”

It was a demonstration of the power of faith.

The above is most useful because I think that there is an OT law that disconnects with this incident.,
That's not bad....... bit simply helps my project, somewhat.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
This one bugs me. 1 cor 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

What's with the lovey dovey stuff. Where is the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Fire and brimstone.?
Thanks for your reply.
My single focus is upon the gospels, because they relate most directly to what Jesus said and did.
Strangely, the more difficult and embarrassing the verse, so the more evidence for the reality of the story. I say too much just now, just hope that less readers will 'clock' this sentence.
:D
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
This would have to be under the presumption that the incidents in the Bible were actually true, and that the Christian doesn't simply dismiss them out of hand, or explain them away by the notion that absolutely everything god does is good. Assuming so, I would think that killing innocent humans, particularly women, children, and infants would not be something a reasonable, caring Christian would care to read. I'd think they'd prefer that these incidents never took place.


Judges 11:30-39(NIV)

30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon. 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.” 36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.” 38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

Exodus 12:29 (NIV)
29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

1 Samuel 15:1-9(NIV)

15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

.

This is old.

AND so lacking.

The NT is for Christians. The Tannakh is for the people of Israel. The thread is about Christians.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Thankyou for that list of difficult verses from the Old Testament.

Moving forward, can you think of :-
The Gospels. Any 'Difficult' verses?
Ah yes, the Gospels, my oversight. I haven't read all the response here but I'm sure they found all those I could plus some. So I'll leave the project as is.

.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Matthew 6:6 Pray in secret. It makes zero sense in Christianity today, because the concept of prayer changed so much for most Christians today. Nobody thinks that prayer is itself something that deserves a reward, like a way of transforming yourself or kind of meditation. They think you get answers to prayer of yes or no. Prayer is different, so this verse does not fit into most of the Christian universe today.
The problem with these types of statements, IMV, is that it completely negates context and/or the full picture of what Jesus said throughout his stay on the earth.

To say one should never pray out loud is to forget that Jesus did pray out loud in multiple occasions. Additionally, the Jewish Sabbath ceremony contained many out loud prayers.

There are many types of prayers. Some for transformations and some for yes and no.

This verse had to do with those who prayed for show.

Matthew 19:21 & Mark 10:21 Sell your possessions to give to the poor etc. Nobody does this. If a Christian does this, the other Christians might say "I respect that, but you're being extreme or crazy." Its because the Bible is taken literally. People cannot handle a literal interpretation of this in the current culture. You'd have to be living in a commune. You can't just sell everything and expect God to take up the slack. People have tried it. You need a commune for it to work. Its a basis for a communism that might actually work as opposed to a Marxist communism, but few Christians risk it. Donations are what substitute for it today, and they come nowhere near to 'Selling all your possessions'. Note there are homeless people. That would not be possible if all Christians sold their possessions and gave them to the poor. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, because its ridiculous to claim otherwise. Additionally it doesn't say "Sell your possessions to give to a church building fund." or "Sell your possessions to support missions." or "Sell your possessions so the ministry can eat."
Again... this is quite lacking.

There are other cases that Jesus didn't mind people have possessions. The context is what this man was trusting in as well as an open invitation to be a called out disciple. Zaccheaus was never asked to sell everything he had--and he was VERY rich.

You can only get communism out of this if you ignore everything else he said.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Just like Jews, Christians also respect and use the OT.

.
But we factor in the Cross and it made one "hell" of a difference. :) When you get a New (Will and) Testament, the Old is no longer valid
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
there is always a debt for what you receive.....

I think so......
I do wonder if John the Baptist and his disciples might have received gifts from the thousands who flocked for the free Remssion of Sins. Equally, I have often wondered whether Jesus and disciples received gifts for baptising.

There's no evidence but I wonder if Jesus and discioples might have been baptising those thousands in the Lake.

All speculation, of course.....
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Here's another one, and this one is a very unwanted scripture verse. Its absolutely avoided by almost everybody, because its so darn against human nature. How often do families go out of their way to invite some dangerous poor person in to eat with them? Once in a while you might maybe be willing to assist at a thanksgiving dinner for the homeless, but believe me they do not get invited to birthday parties and family events. It just does not happen.

Luke 14:12-14 And he said to him also that had bidden him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, nor thy kinsmen, nor rich neighbors; lest haply they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee But when thou makest a feast, bid the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; because they have not [wherewith] to recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed in the resurrection of the just.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Here's another one, and this one is a very unwanted scripture verse. Its absolutely avoided by almost everybody, because its so darn against human nature. How often do families go out of their way to invite some dangerous poor person in to eat with them? Once in a while you might maybe be willing to assist at a thanksgiving dinner for the homeless, but believe me they do not get invited to birthday parties and family events. It just does not happen.

Luke 14:12-14 And he said to him also that had bidden him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, nor thy kinsmen, nor rich neighbors; lest haply they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee But when thou makest a feast, bid the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; because they have not [wherewith] to recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed in the resurrection of the just.

Excellent example!
More!..... gimme more!
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think so......
I do wonder if John the Baptist and his disciples might have received gifts from the thousands who flocked for the free Remssion of Sins. Equally, I have often wondered whether Jesus and disciples received gifts for baptising.

There's no evidence but I wonder if Jesus and discioples might have been baptising those thousands in the Lake.

All speculation, of course.....
Good question.

And who knows.

I would assume that if you know you are getting baptized, you would leave your money at home? Who knows. Certainly there isn't any indication one way or another.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Here's another one, and this one is a very unwanted scripture verse. Its absolutely avoided by almost everybody, because its so darn against human nature. How often do families go out of their way to invite some dangerous poor person in to eat with them? Once in a while you might maybe be willing to assist at a thanksgiving dinner for the homeless, but believe me they do not get invited to birthday parties and family events. It just does not happen.

Luke 14:12-14 And he said to him also that had bidden him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, nor thy kinsmen, nor rich neighbors; lest haply they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee But when thou makest a feast, bid the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed; because they have not [wherewith] to recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed in the resurrection of the just.
That's a good one.

It does happen, but not quite enough! Missions includes these efforts. :)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This would have to be under the presumption that the incidents in the Bible were actually true, and that the Christian doesn't simply dismiss them out of hand, or explain them away by the notion that absolutely everything god does is good. Assuming so, I would think that killing innocent humans, particularly women, children, and infants would not be something a reasonable, caring Christian would care to read. I'd think they'd prefer that these incidents never took place.

I think you need to understand that these things took place in a different culture with a vastly different mind set.
Considering the threat from the surrounding nations, with each attributing military victories to their gods, the God of Israel had to demonstrate himself to be the superior power. Pagan nations came to know about the God of Israel through his military victories which was perceived as 'my god against your god' in those times.


Judges 11:30-39(NIV)
With the case of Jephthah's vow, there are valuable lessons in this account.
First of all, the rashness of Jephthah's vow demonstrates the value of forethought. He obviously did not take into account that his daughter would be the first to greet him, but perhaps he envisioned someone to whom he was not emotionally attached? But he made a vow out of gratitude and he could not take it back. He was a devout worshipper of his God and he took his vows seriously. (Ecclesiastes 5:2-6)

His daughter also demonstrated amazing devotion to her God because this vow was not of her own volition. But the vow made by her father was one that she respected, even though it was made rashly and out of gratitude for what God had done for Israel. She asked for time to process what the vow meant for her and was willing to make the sacrifice. How many young women these days would be so self sacrificing for their father under those circumstances?

The accounts in the Bible are there for us to learn from the actions and even the mistakes of others.

Exodus 12:29 (NIV)
The ten plagues brought upon Egypt were also a lesson in God's patience. He gave Pharaoh 9 opportunities to agree to his request to allow Israel to go out into the wilderness in order to worship their God away from the graven images and false worship practiced in Egypt. Each plague was designed to humiliate one of Egypt's many gods. After agreeing and then reneging 9 times, God struck the final blow on Pharaoh himself by taking the life of the next ruler of Egypt who was also considered a god. It was not Yahweh who was at fault here but an arrogant ruler who allowed his pride to affect the lives of his entire nation.
Pharaoh could have prevented all of it, but he invited all that Egypt suffered through his own stubbornness.
Even when he came after Israel in the wilderness after the Red Sea was parted, he not only lost his own life, but his whole military force was wiped out along with him.

The lesson is still there all these centuries later. "Pride goes before a fall".

1 Samuel 15:1-9 (NIV)

Those who do not worship the true God but instead choose to follow their own false gods are not owed anything from God. He has given them life and breath and free will to do as they choose. Israel was to welcome any foreigners who came to choose to worship Yahweh as their God. As long as these ones left their false worship behind and lived according to Israel's laws, they were accepted as 'brothers'.

Taking into consideration the global deluge, we also see that God did not spare any of the people who remained outside of the ark, including their children. Noah preached to the people the whole time he was building that structure, but no one took any notice. Jesus said it will be that way again. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Why would God spare those who rebel against his laws and live immoral lives? Their children were being raised in a highly violent and immoral environment, so what were they going to grow up to be? If you found a nest of scorpions or rattle snakes in your house, would you get rid of the adults and spare the babies?

The Amalekites were descendants of Esau, whom God rejected as being an ancestor of the promised seed of Abraham, giving the birthright to his twin brother Jacob for a bowl of stew.
The Amalekites were “the first one of the nations” to launch an unprovoked attack on the Israelites after the Exodus, making themselves enemies of God's people.

God often eradicated everything belonging to those who opposed him, as if to erase all memory of the opposers.

We also have to remember that death to God is but a sleep. He can awaken the dead if he chooses to as easily as Jesus raised Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)


Edit: Quotes from NIV seem to have altered the quote feature in the middle for some reason....? :shrug:

 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
This one bugs me. 1 cor 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

What's with the lovey dovey stuff. Where is the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Fire and brimstone.?
the old law was reactive
and it leads to a lot of people being led by the hand for lack of sight

the 'new' law is proactive.....you first
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

ironically.....that quote was in stone a thousand years before the Carpenter walked
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think so......
I do wonder if John the Baptist and his disciples might have received gifts from the thousands who flocked for the free Remssion of Sins. Equally, I have often wondered whether Jesus and disciples received gifts for baptising.

There's no evidence but I wonder if Jesus and discioples might have been baptising those thousands in the Lake.

All speculation, of course.....

Jesus said...."You received free, give free". So there was nothing expected in return for baptism.
Christians did not have to tithe but gave as their circumstances permitted.

The apostle Paul was clear about not becoming an economic burden on his brothers.

2 Thessalonians 3:7-10:
"For you yourselves know how you should imitate us, because we did not behave in a disorderly way among you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food free. On the contrary, by labor and toil we were working night and day so as not to impose an expensive burden on any one of you. 9 Not that we do not have authority, but we wanted to offer ourselves as an example for you to imitate. 10 In fact, when we were with you, we used to give you this order: “If anyone does not want to work, neither let him eat.”
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I think you need to understand that these things took place in a different culture with a vastly different mind set.
God had a different mind set back then?

Considering the threat from the surrounding nations, with each attributing military victories to their gods, the God of Israel had to demonstrate himself to be the superior power. Pagan nations came to know about the God of Israel through his military victories which was perceived as 'my god against your god' in those times.
So in order to do this it was necessary to kill women and children and even infants. As if he was incapable of sparing them? Give me a break, Unless, that is, your god isn't as all-powerful as you claim.



With the case of Jephthah's vow, there are valuable lessons in this account.
First of all, the rashness of Jephthah's vow demonstrates the value of forethought. He obviously did not take into account that his daughter would be the first to greet him, but perhaps he envisioned someone to whom he was not emotionally attached? But he made a vow out of gratitude and he could not take it back. He was a devout worshipper of his God and he took his vows seriously. (Ecclesiastes 5:2-6)

His daughter also demonstrated amazing devotion to her God because this vow was not of her own volition. But the vow made by her father was one that she respected, even though it was made rashly and out of gratitude for what God had done for Israel. She asked for time to process what the vow meant for her and was willing to make the sacrifice. How many young women these days would be so self sacrificing for their father under those circumstances?

The accounts in the Bible are there for us to learn from the actions and even the mistakes of others.


The ten plagues brought upon Egypt were also a lesson in God's patience. He gave Pharaoh 9 opportunities to agree to his request to allow Israel to go out into the wilderness in order to worship their God away from the graven images and false worship practiced in Egypt. Each plague was designed to humiliate one of Egypt's many gods. After agreeing and then reneging 9 times, God struck the final blow on Pharaoh himself by taking the life of the next ruler of Egypt who was also considered a god. It was not Yahweh who was at fault here but an arrogant ruler who allowed his pride to affect the lives of his entire nation.
Pharaoh could have prevented all of it, but he invited all that Egypt suffered through his own stubbornness.
Even when he came after Israel in the wilderness after the Red Sea was parted, he not only lost his own life, but his whole military force was wiped out along with him.

The lesson is still there all these centuries later. "Pride goes before a fall".



Those who do not worship the true God but instead choose to follow their own false gods are not owed anything from God. He has given them life and breath and free will to do as they choose. Israel was to welcome any foreigners who came to choose to worship Yahweh as their God. As long as these ones left their false worship behind and lived according to Israel's laws, they were accepted as 'brothers'.

Taking into consideration the global deluge, we also see that God did not spare any of the people who remained outside of the ark, including their children. Noah preached to the people the whole time he was building that structure, but no one took any notice. Jesus said it will be that way again. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Why would God spare those who rebel against his laws and live immoral lives? Their children were being raised in a highly violent and immoral environment, so what were they going to grow up to be? If you found a nest of scorpions or rattle snakes in your house, would you get rid of the adults and spare the babies?

The Amalekites were descendants of Esau, whom God rejected as being an ancestor of the promised seed of Abraham, giving the birthright to his twin brother Jacob for a bowl of stew.
The Amalekites were “the first one of the nations” to launch an unprovoked attack on the Israelites after the Exodus, making themselves enemies of God's people.

God often eradicated everything belonging to those who opposed him, as if to erase all memory of the opposers.

We also have to remember that death to God is but a sleep. He can awaken the dead if he chooses to as easily as Jesus raised Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)


Edit: Quotes from NIV seem to have altered the quote feature in the middle for some reason....? :shrug:
So let me get this straight. The only way god has of teaching certain lessons such as "learn from the actions and even the mistakes of others" and "pride goes before a fall" is by killing numerous women and children and even infants? REALLY? Okay, but to me this is hardly a loving, intelligent, just, and all powerful god. And hardly something I'd find worthy of adoration, praise, and worship. But that's just me.

.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I agree that it is a demonstration of the power of faith... but I think it goes beyond that. (personal viewpoint). Adam tried to cover his errors by sewing fig leaves together -- a human response to try to fix things without God and it produces no fruit. I think Jesus was saying it is time to fix problems, not by human effort but by the spiritual force of faith.

When Adam and his wife 'covered' their naked bodies with fig leaves after they had unleashed a knowledge of evil, what was the first thing they experienced? Shame. Why? Because prior to this, their nakedness implied no sin at all.....now that sexual sin could be experienced and imagined, they attempted to cover the parts of their bodies that were used for sex.
Did God leave it at that? NO! He actually made long garments of animal skins for them to cover their bodies.
Their standards of modesty were not in line with God's.

Laws relating to sexual sin in Israel were extensive and explicit.

The eating of the forbidden fruit was what exposed them to evil....which was something that God wanted to shield them from. Once the 'genie' was out of the bottle, there was no sending it back, so God allowed humans to experience what he had tried to protect them from. The lesson in this is....do we appreciate why God wanted to keep evil away from his children? By using their free will and experiencing evil first hand, we have an object lesson that will last for all eternity....no rebel will ever be able to challenge God's sovereign right to set the rules ever again.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
When Adam and his wife 'covered' their naked bodies with fig leaves after they had unleashed a knowledge of evil, what was the first thing they experienced? Shame. Why? Because prior to this, their nakedness implied no sin at all.....now that sexual sin could be experienced and imagined, they attempted to cover the parts of their bodies that were used for sex.
Did God leave it at that? NO! He actually made long garments of animal skins for them to cover their bodies.
Their standards of modesty were not in line with God's.

.
I don't know if I can go that far.

The skins made for Adam and Eve is the first blood covenant because of the promise of the Messiah representing the coat of righteousness which Jesus was going to give us.

IMV, the sin was thinking that they had a better way--doing things without God.

Of course this is up to interpretation...

but after typing this, I did a cursory review and it seems to be viewed that way... example:

John Gill
"as a type of the woman's seed, whose heel was to be bruised, or who was to suffer death for the sins of men; and therefore to keep up and direct the faith of our first parents to the slain Lamb of God from the foundation of the world, and of all believers in all ages, until the Messiah should come and die, and become a sacrifice for sin, the sacrifices of slain beasts were appointed"

Scofield:
3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

coats of skins

Coats of skins: Type of "Christ, made unto us righteousness"-- a divinely provided garment that the first sinners might be made fit for God's presence. See Righteousness, garment Genesis 3:21 ; Revelation 19:8 .
 
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