• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Gospels. Any 'Difficult' verses?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
............
Matthew 19:21 & Mark 10:21 Sell your possessions to give to the poor etc. Nobody does this. If a Christian does this, the other Christians might say "I respect that, but you're being extreme or crazy." Its because the Bible is taken literally. People cannot handle a literal interpretation of this in the current culture. You'd have to be living in a commune. You can't just sell everything and expect God to take up the slack. People have tried it. You need a commune for it to work. Its a basis for a communism that might actually work as opposed to a Marxist communism, but few Christians risk it. Donations are what substitute for it today, and they come nowhere near to 'Selling all your possessions'. Note there are homeless people. That would not be possible if all Christians sold their possessions and gave them to the poor. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, because its ridiculous to claim otherwise. Additionally it doesn't say "Sell your possessions to give to a church building fund." or "Sell your possessions to support missions." or "Sell your possessions so the ministry can eat."

The only time Jesus ' passed the plate ', so to speak, was to feed people with bread and fish.
Jesus and his followers always taught for free. No charge. No collection plate, No church envelopes.

In a nut shell, Jesus was addressing one particular person at Mark 10:17-22 and that person was materialistic owning ' great possessions '( Mark 10:22 ) . In other words, his wealth would Not get him everlasting life.
His wealth held him back. - Luke 8:41; Luke 18:18; Luke 18:24-27; Luke 24:20; Matthew 19:17-19.
All his great acts were Not going to get him eternal life because his wealth was an obstacle to his faith.
So, even if we have money we should Not be so attached to it like that rich ruler who was ' blinded by his many possessions ' to the point that he turned away from Jesus.

Jesus gave us the illustration about the neighborly good Samaritan to follow.
We are to broaden out in showing love on a one-on-one basis in helping another in distress as we are able.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The only time Jesus ' passed the plate ', so to speak, was to feed people with bread and fish.
Jesus and his followers always taught for free. No charge. No collection plate, No church envelopes.

In a nut shell, Jesus was addressing one particular person at Mark 10:17-22 and that person was materialistic owning ' great possessions '( Mark 10:22 ) . In other words, his wealth would Not get him everlasting life.
His wealth held him back. - Luke 8:41; Luke 18:18; Luke 18:24-27; Luke 24:20; Matthew 19:17-19.
All his great acts were Not going to get him eternal life because his wealth was an obstacle to his faith.
So, even if we have money we should Not be so attached to it like that rich ruler who was ' blinded by his many possessions ' to the point that he turned away from Jesus.

Jesus gave us the illustration about the neighborly good Samaritan to follow.
We are to broaden out in showing love on a one-on-one basis in helping another in distress as we are able.
there is always a debt for what you receive.....
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
...the meek shall inherit the earth....
the rest of us go on to Something Greater

Only those of Revelation 20:6 who have a first or earlier resurrection are the saints or holy ones going to heaven.
Adam was never going to go on to Something Greater. Adam was offered everlasting life on Earth.
So, the majority of mankind will have the same original opportunity as was originally offered to Adam before his downfall to live forever in perfect health on a beautiful paradisical earth forever and ever.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Only those of Revelation 20:6 who have a first or earlier resurrection are the saints or holy ones going to heaven.
Adam was never going to go on to Something Greater. Adam was offered everlasting life on Earth.
So, the majority of mankind will have the same original opportunity as was originally offered to Adam before his downfall to live forever in perfect health on a beautiful paradisical earth forever and ever.
the garden had a purpose....
the alteration of body and spirit

it served that purpose and was dismantled
(angel with sword)

we won't be going back
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
the garden had a purpose....
the alteration of body and spirit

it served that purpose and was dismantled
(angel with sword)

we won't be going back

Do you have scripture to back that up?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Do you have any in mind OB?
....... yyeeessssss........ kind of.......

If I should be so fortunate as to be inundated with a great big list, then oldbadger will be kept busy (out of trouble) for several days whilst the list is scrutinised, sifted and filed.

Why? When the thread is dormant I'll p.m. you.
Signed, Sneaky oldbadger. :D
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Why? Is there anything at all therein that you have a genuine interest in debating, or is the aim just one more silly Bible-bashing thread?
Shhhhsh! ;)
Stop whining and hand over all those niggling silly little verses that Christians might sooner do without.

Me? A Bible basher? I'm a puss-cat! :p

PS: I just need those friggin' verses........ :D
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Matthew 6:6 Pray in secret. It makes zero sense in Christianity today, because the concept of prayer changed so much for most Christians today. Nobody thinks that prayer is itself something that deserves a reward, like a way of transforming yourself or kind of meditation. They think you get answers to prayer of yes or no. Prayer is different, so this verse does not fit into most of the Christian universe today.
Matthew 19:21 & Mark 10:21 Sell your possessions to give to the poor etc. Nobody does this. If a Christian does this, the other Christians might say "I respect that, but you're being extreme or crazy." Its because the Bible is taken literally. People cannot handle a literal interpretation of this in the current culture. You'd have to be living in a commune. You can't just sell everything and expect God to take up the slack. People have tried it. You need a commune for it to work. Its a basis for a communism that might actually work as opposed to a Marxist communism, but few Christians risk it. Donations are what substitute for it today, and they come nowhere near to 'Selling all your possessions'. Note there are homeless people. That would not be possible if all Christians sold their possessions and gave them to the poor. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, because its ridiculous to claim otherwise. Additionally it doesn't say "Sell your possessions to give to a church building fund." or "Sell your possessions to support missions." or "Sell your possessions so the ministry can eat."
Thankyou very much.....
So I'm not going to receive a huge wedge of cash into my account (being poor) from you, anytime? :p
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Makes me think fanaticism, maybe trees have a choice, still up in air about that.
OH - ok.

I think it was a message about Adam and not something one does on a regular basis

But can see how one can view it in that vein.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Again, there was a lesson. Jesus often used literal things to give added meaning to figurative admonition.

Matthew 21:18-22:
"While returning to the city early in the morning, he felt hungry. 19 He caught sight of a fig tree by the road and went to it, but he found nothing on it except leaves, and he said to it: “Let no fruit come from you ever again.” And the fig tree withered instantly. 20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed and said: “How is it that the fig tree withered instantly?” 21 In answer Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what I did to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen. 22 And all the things you ask in prayer, having faith, you will receive.

The fig tree was not producing fruit, it was all leaves and so Jesus cursed it. It withered up and died.

As Jesus explained.....“Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what I did to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen.  And all the things you ask in prayer, having faith, you will receive.”

It was a demonstration of the power of faith.

I agree that it is a demonstration of the power of faith... but I think it goes beyond that. (personal viewpoint). Adam tried to cover his errors by sewing fig leaves together -- a human response to try to fix things without God and it produces no fruit. I think Jesus was saying it is time to fix problems, not by human effort but by the spiritual force of faith.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The only time Jesus ' passed the plate ', so to speak, was to feed people with bread and fish.
Jesus and his followers always taught for free. No charge. No collection plate, No church envelopes.

I know they didn't have envelopes back there, but something happened...

Luke 8:2bMary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out;
3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.

John 13:29 Since Judas was their treasurer, some thought Jesus was telling him to go and pay for the food or to give some money to the poor.


I do know that you still can be taught without being charged :)
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The Gospels. Any 'Difficult' verses?
I'm compiling a list of gospel verses that Christianity might have preferred not to see.
And so, if any members know of any verses which might be considered as 'Difficult' please do post them up.
Thankyou.....
Oldbadger
This would have to be under the presumption that the incidents in the Bible were actually true, and that the Christian doesn't simply dismiss them out of hand, or explain them away by the notion that absolutely everything god does is good. Assuming so, I would think that killing innocent humans, particularly women, children, and infants would not be something a reasonable, caring Christian would care to read. I'd think they'd prefer that these incidents never took place.


Judges 11:30-39(NIV)

30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon. 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.” 36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.” 38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

Exodus 12:29 (NIV)
29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

1 Samuel 15:1-9(NIV)

15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

.

 

Riders

Well-Known Member
If you look at the word Jesus used for "dogs" in this verse you will see something interesting.
The word is "kynarion" and it means "little dogs" or puppies....not a "dog" in any derogatory sense. The woman was not insulted by Jesus' words but used the expression to acknowledge that 'the little dogs eat the crumbs falling from their master's table'.

Matthew 15:21-28 says in context....
"Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the [little] dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the [little] dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once." (NASB)

This Canaanite woman had obviously acknowledged Jesus as the "Lord, Son of David", but not being "of the house of Israel", Jesus was not sent to those ones (as it was prophesied in the scriptures). The Gentiles would come in later. Jesus was sent only to the Jews as descendants of Abraham, to whom God made a promise concerning his offspring. This did not prevent him, on occasion, from ministering to those outside of Israel to people of faith.....like the Samaritan woman at the well.

Yet the Canaanite woman's faith and persistence as a "little dog" or "puppy" patiently waiting for the spiritual "crumbs" touched Jesus' heart and he rewarded her faith by granting her request.

Sometimes things can get lost in the translation. Look up the original words and it often makes more sense. :)


But now this is why some have reservations about Christianity because in the beginning it wasn't meant for all of us, Jesus was preaching to the Jews. I don't belong to his group either.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
In the old testament scripture says God told Israelites to go kill the Pagans. I'm sorry but theres no excuse for it. Christians in history have gone to war with pagans a lot including destroying the library at Alexandria which is really really sad. Considering the fact that the library held most of the worlds leading knowledge in science it shows me what Christians think about knowledge, the fact that they don't hold valuable information and knowledge of the time.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
This would have to be under the presumption that the incidents in the Bible were actually true, and that the Christian doesn't simply dismiss them out of hand, or explain them away by the notion that absolutely everything god does is good. Assuming so, I would think that killing innocent humans, particularly women, children, and infants would not be something a reasonable, caring Christian would care to read. I'd think they'd prefer that these incidents never took place.

Judges 11:30-39(NIV)
30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon. 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.” 36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.” 38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

Exodus 12:29 (NIV)
29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

1 Samuel 15:1-9(NIV)

15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Thankyou for that list of difficult verses from the Old Testament.

Moving forward, can you think of :-
The Gospels. Any 'Difficult' verses?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The one where they skin the old badger and use him as a tent.
That one was a nasty ol' Badger.
I'm a nice kind ol' Badger...... :)

There must be some verses in the gospels that you'd sooner not have to explain.... if so, I need 'em.
Their use will be quite benign, I promise./
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
If you look at the word Jesus used for "dogs" in this verse you will see something interesting.
The word is "kynarion" and it means "little dogs" or puppies....not a "dog" in any derogatory sense. The woman was not insulted by Jesus' words but used the expression to acknowledge that 'the little dogs eat the crumbs falling from their master's table'.

Matthew 15:21-28 says in context....
"Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the [little] dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the [little] dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once." (NASB)

This Canaanite woman had obviously acknowledged Jesus as the "Lord, Son of David", but not being "of the house of Israel", Jesus was not sent to those ones (as it was prophesied in the scriptures). The Gentiles would come in later. Jesus was sent only to the Jews as descendants of Abraham, to whom God made a promise concerning his offspring. This did not prevent him, on occasion, from ministering to those outside of Israel to people of faith.....like the Samaritan woman at the well.

Yet the Canaanite woman's faith and persistence as a "little dog" or "puppy" patiently waiting for the spiritual "crumbs" touched Jesus' heart and he rewarded her faith by granting her request.

Sometimes things can get lost in the translation. Look up the original words and it often makes more sense. :)
Matthew 15:24 is useful for me.
Don't worry about an explanation my need is benign, truly!
 
Top