psychoslice
Veteran Member
I'll have a look at it, but it still doesn't take away the conditioning of your belief system, and how much you believe you know about it.
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Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Well, you believe wrongly. We have many more years of experience with HaShem than a Christian could even dream of. We come from the stem of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. How could God be a liar to His own People?
Not at all. I have studied the OT. I teach more from the than I do from the NT. It is necessary to understand both to know them the best.
MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
I believe Jesus did rise from the dead and did visit his followers. The best way to understand this story is the same as asking what is the best way to believe God exists. This 'way' I reference is faith. Jesus said if we have the faith that would fit in a mustard seed we could 'move mountains' etc. How big is a mustard seed? This big >>>>> . <<<<<<<<. Wait maybe I should 'bold it....here it is >>>>>.<<<<<<, personally I have not formed a conclusion if Jesus was speaking literally or was applying his often used tools of language in this case a parables. I have often asked myself what if most or all of the supernatural events listed in the new testament were frauds and falsehoods, would I still have faith in the Cristian religion ie the deity Jesus. The answer is no, I would reject it but only if the fraud and lies were intentional.
MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Hmm' I can throw a wrench in the last paragraph claim. You see according to the newest claims of science** the earth is the center of the universe! Ha, ha!!!! Yep, but so is other places in the universe. In fact the universe is expanding everywhere. What I find intensely interesting is without sentient beings to claim ownership of the center of creation the idea is meaningless~~~~~~~~***
; { >
Thank you for you posts. I am a Baha'i and so believe in the same God, Jesus, and Bible as the Christians. I also have a science and a medical degree so reconciling faith and science is important. I believe the resurrection of Christ to be a spiritual not literal event. There are major problems from the perspective of reason, science, and scripture if it is physical from my perspective. However I realise how important this belief is to Christians and this thread is really a chance for those that are interested to explore different perspectives other than the mainstream Christian view.
MrMrdevincamus
Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Yes, I actually came to the clergy and Christianity after rejecting a career and education of 'God is dead' science and my world view of atheism. It was PhD enabled christian philosophers such as William Craig and others. Also it was nice to be able to discuss, study, and write science where God wasn't a dirty word. So you are right Threads like this as well as articles etc enable those that might not fit in to atheism or traditional Christianity.Play it forward my friend~
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah, let's look at 1 Corinthians 15 starting with verse 2:
...hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures; 5 and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve; 6 then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep; 7 then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to the [child] untimely born, he appeared to me also.
12 Now if Christ is preached that he hath been raised from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised: 14 and if Christ hath not been raised, then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain.
15 Yea, we are found false witnesses of God; because we witnessed of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, neither hath Christ been raised: 17 and if Christ hath not been raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable.
20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
Please explain. Also, I was thinking... Don't Baha'is believe that the soul lives on after the physical body dies? So if Jesus' body died and only His soul lived on... then how is He different than anybody else? And, since Jesus says to touch Him and see that He has flesh and bone, He was not a spirit.
God has never been dead in the science I've studies but present throughout. A medical degree allows me to be of practical benefit to patients drawing on both religion and science.
There words of my faith sum it up:
Science and religion are the two wings of one bird. Both must be equally strong for the bird to fly: “Religion and science are the two wings upon which man’s intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone!” (`Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, pg. 143).
Science, Religion, and the Bahá'í Faith | The Huffington Post
SpiritQuest
The Immortal Man
Resurrection is an inner spiritual process, also called enlightenment. Jesus is the symbol for our inner spiritual being, the Christ child that matures and develops as we experience life and learn and grow to love our neighbor as our-self. Who is the Christ? YOU are the Christ, which is the full creative potential within all beings.
There is no authorised Baha'i translation of this chapter. My best guess:
Remember my words and heed my teachings
Christ died so we could live in spiritual freedom free from sin. Although physically dead and buried He overcame death and remains alive spiritually. Despite being overcome by hopelessness and despair His Spirit brought new life to the disciples and to many more. He even brought a 'loathsome toad' like me to spiritual life.
His Spirit is with us and in us, so how can you deny this?
If He had not brought us to new spiritual life as Christ had, then our teachings and beliefs are in vain.
We would be liars if we taught that Christ promises new spiritual life if He didn't.
Get it into your 'thick skulls' that what I'm saying is true.
If it were not true then those who have passed on would have no spiritual life.
We would be guilty of wishful thinking and a bunch of losers if this were not true.
As Christ has new life and He is the first (firstborn- reference to Jewish festival in Leviticus based on story of flight of Hebrew peoples from captivity of the Egtyptians), so to, we shall have new life. We should have total confidence this is true.
In regards to the Baha'i perspective on life after death:
The Human Soul | What Bahá’ís Believe
He is different because He is a manifestation of God.
Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe
Not sure if we have covered this before. I posted on another thread:
Admittedly this too could be a compelling argument for a physical resurrection. Jesus has appeared not as a spirit, but physically as flesh and bones. Lets consider this further by considering the verse in context.
"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them.
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.." Luke 24:36-45)
In this context the word 'spirit' is used, not in a benevolent manner, but as something threatening and negative. If we understand that the resurrected Christ is symbolic of the living Church and the believers resurrected from the death of unbelief, then there is reason for the apostles to be afraid. They were known associates of Christ and identified leaders of His Cause. Opposition had been aroused to the extent the authorities had crucified Christ. The apostles realised that the Cause of Christ did not die with their beloved, but instead was alive and well. They had good reason to be fearful for their lives. Consider that after Jesus was arrested His apostles forsook Him and fled (Matthew 26:56). Peter even denied Him three times to save HIs life (Matthew 26:69-75).
So when the apostles first saw Christianity still alive they feared for their lives. But then they realised that the Cause of Christ (symbolised by spirit) should not frighten them as it had qualities of substance (symbolised by flesh and bones) they became assured. They resolved that they should devote themselves to HIs cause. If this meant sacrificing their lives for His cause then they would be happy for this was a Cause worth dying for. For Christ had taught 'he who loses his life for My sake shall will find it' (Matthew 10:39). Therefore Paul calls the believers the 'flesh' and 'bones' of Christ (Ephesians 5:29-30).
Later in this verse Christ giving food can be likened to giving spiritual guidance and sustenance to the believers representing the body of the risen church. We could also understand it as the apostles accepting their rightful role as leaders of the Church.
Hope this all helps
Remember my words and heed my teachings
Christ died so we could live in spiritual freedom free from sin. Although physically dead and buried He overcame death and remains alive spiritually. Despite being overcome by hopelessness and despair His Spirit brought new life to the disciples and to many more. He even brought a 'loathsome toad' like me to spiritual life.
His Spirit is with us and in us, so how can you deny this?
If He had not brought us to new spiritual life as Christ had, then our teachings and beliefs are in vain.
We would be liars if we taught that Christ promises new spiritual life if He didn't.
Get it into your 'thick skulls' that what I'm saying is true.
If it were not true then those who have passed on would have no spiritual life.
We would be guilty of wishful thinking and a bunch of losers if this were not true.
As Christ has new life and He is the first (firstborn- reference to Jewish festival in Leviticus based on story of flight of Hebrew peoples from captivity of the Egtyptians), so to, we shall have new life. We should have total confidence this is true.
In regards to the Baha'i perspective on life after death:
The Human Soul | What Bahá’ís Believe
He is different because He is a manifestation of God.
Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe
Not sure if we have covered this before. I posted on another thread:
Admittedly this too could be a compelling argument for a physical resurrection. Jesus has appeared not as a spirit, but physically as flesh and bones. Lets consider this further by considering the verse in context.
"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them.
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.." Luke 24:36-45)
In this context the word 'spirit' is used, not in a benevolent manner, but as something threatening and negative. If we understand that the resurrected Christ is symbolic of the living Church and the believers resurrected from the death of unbelief, then there is reason for the apostles to be afraid. They were known associates of Christ and identified leaders of His Cause. Opposition had been aroused to the extent the authorities had crucified Christ. The apostles realised that the Cause of Christ did not die with their beloved, but instead was alive and well. They had good reason to be fearful for their lives. Consider that after Jesus was arrested His apostles forsook Him and fled (Matthew 26:56). Peter even denied Him three times to save HIs life (Matthew 26:69-75).
So when the apostles first saw Christianity still alive they feared for their lives. But then they realised that the Cause of Christ (symbolised by spirit) should not frighten them as it had qualities of substance (symbolised by flesh and bones) they became assured. They resolved that they should devote themselves to HIs cause. If this meant sacrificing their lives for His cause then they would be happy for this was a Cause worth dying for. For Christ had taught 'he who loses his life for My sake shall will find it' (Matthew 10:39). Therefore Paul calls the believers the 'flesh' and 'bones' of Christ (Ephesians 5:29-30).
Later in this verse Christ giving food can be likened to giving spiritual guidance and sustenance to the believers representing the body of the risen church. We could also understand it as the apostles accepting their rightful role as leaders of the Church.
Hope this all helps
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I like it. From the Baha'i writings...
O SON OF SPIRIT! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.
Baha'u'llah
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I got a book called "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs" Edited by David W. Bercot. On pages 558-564 it quotes several early believers. One quote by Ignatius says "...after His {Christ's} resurrection... He was still possessed of flesh..." Tertullian, "...it was in the flesh that Christ was raised from the dead. For the very same body that fell in death, and which lay in the sepulcher, did rise again." Justin Martyr, "In truth, Christ has even called the flesh to the resurrection. He promises everlasting life to it... Why did He rise in the flesh in which He suffered, unless it was to demonstrate the resurrection of the flesh?"
So I don't know who are the early Christians you are speaking of, but none of them in this book didn't believe in a literal, physical, in the flesh, resurrection. Like I've mentioned before, if it wasn't then for 2000 years the main Christian denominations have been teaching a lie. If Paul, Peter, John and the others knew it was only a symbolic, spiritual resurrection then they are liars.
If they didn't know it was symbolic and really thought they were seeing, touching and talking to the resurrected Christ, then what? They were all wrong? And, they spread the message of a risen Savior and physically alive Jesus, when all the time His body was rotting away somewhere in a grave?
No, there is no "oneness" of religion. If all the previous religions are have so many things that are either symbolic or misinterpretation of the "true" teaching, then there is no true religion from God only man-made myths pushed on people as if they were true.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Resurrection is denied by the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanaach if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc. The Law is the symbol of our inner spiritual being. Jesus himself pressed for that point when he declared the importance to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)
The Christians you mention are probably as early as we can go other than the apostles.
Tertullian 155 - 240 AD
Justin Martyr 100 - 165 AD
It was the disciples and Paul who didn't believe the physical resurrection as literally true. How could they? It never happened.
There are bible scholars who will argue similarly. I imagine not too many are Christian. Why?
Nicene Creed
Nicene Creed - Wikipedia
The Nicene Creed 325
How safe was it have open discussion as we do now after this creed had been established and had the endorsement of the Emperor Constantine? Not very.
Think of Galileo over 1200 years later and the hard time he had convincing others that the earth was not the centre of the universe!
It could be argued that Jesus Himself spoke of the false doctrine (or tares) being intertwined with the true teachings. Parable of the Tares. Matthew 13:24-30
The True nature of ultimate realty is One. All religions of the past have becomes distorted and changed through time. Some from the earliest days as with Christianity. Regardless it couldn't change the power of His light.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what I do; I study both if you want to check me. That's precisely what "Jews-for-Jesus" and any other Jew lack as an evidence of their fall into the realm of Christianity: Knowledge of both Tanach and the NT. Hence the reason for their fall.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The disciples are the ones that supposedly saw and touched the risen Jesus. How do you explain them seeing and believing that it was Jesus and then to be the ones that didn't believe He rose physically from the dead?
When you speak of distorted and changed, that is the most plausible explanation. But who changed it and when? Christians argue that the words of the NT are reliable. But were the writers themselves reliable? Did they make up a myth of a resurrection? Did they say that Mary and the other went to the tomb, found it empty and then told the others that Christ had risen? Did they make up the stories of the appearances of Jesus? Paul's encounter sounds like a vision. Did it really happen? Some people have near-death visions and they fit into a Christian model of heaven. Are they real? Catholics see visions of Mary? I've known Baha'is that have seen visions of Abdu'l Baha. Is any of it real? Or, since it is believers seeing what they want to see, is it all in the mind?
Still, if Jesus' body was rotting away, why didn't the Jewish or Roman authorities produce it and prove that He hadn't risen? That is one of the main questions Christians will ask. What is the answer? They claim to have thousands of witnesses to the risen Christ, and one of their sources for this is Paul. So from Luke and the other gospel writers, to Peter and Paul, the NT proclaims Jesus rose physically from the dead... because it says that He had flesh and bone and was not a spirit. Could that have been one of the distortions and changes? If yes, then the NT is flawed and not trustworthy. So don't blame the early church leaders, they were going by what they were told was true.
But the resurrection is only one misleading "truths" taught by the NT. Christians use it to teach about heaven and hell, being saved by grace through only Jesus, that Jesus is part of a triune God, that there is a real hell and a real devil/Satan.... all lies? all distortions? all made-made myths about the reality of God? If so, then what is the NT good for? The "good" things about Jesus could also be fabrications. Why trust any of it? Why call it a "good" and "Holy" book? It took believers down the wrong path. Christians used the NT to kill, torture and control people. What good did Christians do with it? Everything they taught as true was wrong. Christianity has been a lie from the beginning. Or, the opposite is just as bad, if they are right, and the NT is the truth, then the Baha'i Faith and all the other religions are wrong.
In regards to the resurrection we need to consider God's will. Has the belief in a physically resurrected Jesus and belief in an afterlife with a heaven in the sky and hell below the earth been harmful? It has not. To the contrary it has aided greatly towards an understanding for the followers of Christ about the connection between this life and the next as well as reward and punishment for those that live a good life compared to those who would harm others. These images have been an enormous assistance. The only thing is, as with all models and ways of looking at life, there comes a time when we need to abandon the old for the new. Having a literal belief in these stories is now doing more harm than good and they have become a barrier to embracing a higher truth and a better way of looking at God's purpose for our lives. It is time for the harvest and to differentiate between the tares and the wheat as in Matthew 13. It is a new Divine Springtime.
In regards to the physical body I posted something along these lines earlier in this thread:
There are many other explanations for an empty tomb. The Bab, forerunner to Baha'u'llah was executed by a militia of 750 of His own countrymen. They dumped his body so it could not be used as a source of worship for His followers but they retrieved His body anyhow and for 50+ years it was carted around until finally being laid to rest on Mt Carmel Haifa also known as the mountain of Elijah.
The purpose of sharing the Bab's story is to demonstrate how much there was at stake for both those who loved and hated the Bab. Having access to His physical body was important for His followers and denying access the agenda for is enemies. I have no doubt that Jesus' remains are on the earth for flesh does not inherit the kingdom of God, and Heaven is not up in the sky where Jesus presumably ascended.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I'm not angry with you or projecting anything. I encourage you to truly embrace the scriptures as your guide to life and the sum of all wisdom.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
You will need to do two things, then:
1. Explain where you come by this special knowledge, that the prophets who said, "Pay attention, this is the Word of God," meant for us to not take their literal words
2. Explain where you come by this special knowledge that the dead raised were rather cataleptic - while you're at it, perhaps you can explain the sun moving backwards, Abram and Sarai having children at 100 and 90, the creation in six days, etc. and the hundreds of other miracles
No one in history has "read" the Hebrew scriptures as you do.