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Is Goetic Magick theurgy?

lovesong

:D
Premium Member
As far as I can tell from a quick google search, theurgy simply means the practices done to call forth a being with the larger intent of uniting with the divine or obtaining ultimate knowledge. If I got this right then yes, Goetic magic would be an excellent example. The purpose of the Goetia, or the Lemegeton as a whole, is to provide esoteric knowledge on the order and workings of higher powers so that it can be used by the Magician to elevate himself higher in knowledge, power, or divinity.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Is Goetic Magick theurgy?

And if not, what is a good example of theurgy?

No, Theurgy would basically best be simply described as prayer magic. A Theurgist is a devotee of some spiritual power/being/whatever and it ultimately it is the easiest method to use if you have unwavering faith. It does not work in religions that forbid magick because they contradict the methodology. Such an individual may wield great power in the name of their god(ddess), and it is a valid approach. It'll never work for people of Abrahamic faiths because magic/sorcery/etc are all forbidden by their beliefs.

Goetic magick involves evocation or invocation in its common form, so one doesn't have a spiritual connection to the beings communicated with. A Theurgist usually works with one being in preference to handle all needs, someone working Goetic magick probably would vary who they work with based on the particular tasks at hand. Faith in the beings, etc, not required in this case and that is why it is a popular form of practice used by westerners.
 

lovesong

:D
Premium Member
Goetic magick involves evocation or invocation in its common form, so one doesn't have a spiritual connection to the beings communicated with. A Theurgist usually works with one being in preference to handle all needs
Oh. I wasn't sure exactly what theurgy meant so I had to google it for the thread. If this is what it means, only working with one being and having a deeper spiritual connection with the being you're working with then yeah, Goetic magic wouldn't work since there's not really a connection there, the beings are used much more like tools or resources.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Oh. I wasn't sure exactly what theurgy meant so I had to google it for the thread. If this is what it means, only working with one being and having a deeper spiritual connection with the being you're working with then yeah, Goetic magic wouldn't work since there's not really a connection there, the beings are used much more like tools or resources.

The de-facto position of the Goetic (or Ceremonial Magician) is that such beings are slaves to God(dess) therefore since as above, so below (the Microcosm and Macrocosm are mirrors) they have divine authority over them. If this sounds like you are a slavemaster rather than a friend, then you get the idea. And likewise, if you think that Goetic magic could go more wrong because you are being a douche -- you'd also be correct.

It's a style preference really, and I've never been into the style due to the cruelty and arrogance involved. Most of the traditional Goetia texts involve conjuring, chastising, and tormenting your spirits into submission with Christian-y verbage. If I work that area of ritual magick now I use non-aggressive methods to do it, and I don't even need circles or protections because I'm not being mean. I don't care if the being in question does my bidding or not, but if they keep their promises I keep mine. That's usually enough for it to "work". I use methods similar to https://www.amazon.com/Daemonolatry-Goetia-S-Connolly/dp/096697882X/ for this sort of magick.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Oh. I wasn't sure exactly what theurgy meant so I had to google it for the thread. If this is what it means, only working with one being and having a deeper spiritual connection with the being you're working with then yeah, Goetic magic wouldn't work since there's not really a connection there, the beings are used much more like tools or resources.
The de-facto position of the Goetic (or Ceremonial Magician) is that such beings are slaves to God(dess) therefore since as above, so below (the Microcosm and Macrocosm are mirrors) they have divine authority over them. If this sounds like you are a slavemaster rather than a friend, then you get the idea. And likewise, if you think that Goetic magic could go more wrong because you are being a douche -- you'd also be correct.

It's a style preference really, and I've never been into the style due to the cruelty and arrogance involved. Most of the traditional Goetia texts involve conjuring, chastising, and tormenting your spirits into submission with Christian-y verbage. If I work that area of ritual magick now I use non-aggressive methods to do it, and I don't even need circles or protections because I'm not being mean. I don't care if the being in question does my bidding or not, but if they keep their promises I keep mine. That's usually enough for it to "work". I use methods similar to https://www.amazon.com/Daemonolatry-Goetia-S-Connolly/dp/096697882X/ for this sort of magick.
So what you both are saying is that I personally need a relationship with these spiritual beings?

(I'm surprised only two people answered.)

Also, is prayer the only equivalent to theurgy?
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So what you both are saying is that I personally need a relationship with these spiritual beings?

(I'm surprised only two people answered.)

Also, is prayer the only equivalent to theurgy?

Similar, but not identical. Theurgy is not like "talking to god" or something, it's direct interact hand wash hand. You do something for the divine, and it does something for you. Groveling on your knees while you whine about your life isn't exactly the same, is it? :D
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Similar, but not identical. Theurgy is not like "talking to god" or something, it's direct interact hand wash hand. You do something for the divine, and it does something for you. Groveling on your knees while you whine about your life isn't exactly the same, is it? :D
But how do I know what they want me to do?
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But how do I know what they want me to do?

This is sort of putting the cart before the horse. You need to have the relationship to know that you can do it in the first place, and then it takes a lot of devotion and work as well as zero doubt to achieve. This is why a lot of people go ceremonial or ritual instead, theurgy is either the easiest way to do anything or impossible. Nothing gives you the faith you need, you either have it or you don't.

The questions you're asking me tell me you are trying to intellectualize it, and it is a matter of inspiration. The short of it is, love is the power which binds the universe. If you love a divine being deeply it draws to you just like a magnet. A little meditation, a little this and that, and the link is established. You'll get hunches, start paying attention to them, and maybe a few years down the line you reap the reward. :D

If you sit there going, "Who, How, What, Where, Why?", you're just going to miss the simplicity of the thing. Anyway, my comparision stands -- it can be the hardest method to work with, and impossible for the doubting Thomas type.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
This is sort of putting the cart before the horse. You need to have the relationship to know that you can do it in the first place, and then it takes a lot of devotion and work as well as zero doubt to achieve. This is why a lot of people go ceremonial or ritual instead, theurgy is either the easiest way to do anything or impossible. Nothing gives you the faith you need, you either have it or you don't.

The questions you're asking me tell me you are trying to intellectualize it, and it is a matter of inspiration. The short of it is, love is the power which binds the universe. If you love a divine being deeply it draws to you just like a magnet. A little meditation, a little this and that, and the link is established. You'll get hunches, start paying attention to them, and maybe a few years down the line you reap the reward. :D

If you sit there going, "Who, How, What, Where, Why?", you're just going to miss the simplicity of the thing. Anyway, my comparision stands -- it can be the hardest method to work with, and impossible for the doubting Thomas type.
Okay, thanks.
 

Raahim

مكتوب
It's the game of the words, theurgy doesn't equal to term 'magick', there's a brilliant lecture on YT from some professor on Cambridge if my memory works correctly that talks about theurgy and Goetia (as an introduction to his lecture). I'd have to dig through history to find the exact name of the video if anyone wants.
 
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