How are these Great Beings explained?

The Ragin Pagan said:

What leader has ever not fallen? That's not prophecy, that's an understanding of history and the way of the world.

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But Baha'u'llah prophesised that the whole system of Empires and Kings that had existed for millennia was about to end and a new world order was soon to come.

“Soon,” Bahá’u’lláh’s own words proclaim it, “will the present day Order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth and is the Knower of things unseen.” “By Myself,” He solemnly asserts, “the day is approaching when We will have rolled up the world and all that is therein, and spread out a new Order in its stead. He, verily, is powerful over all things.” “The world’s equilibrium,” He explains, “hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this Most Great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System, the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” “The signs of impending convulsions and chaos,” He warns the peoples of the world, “can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing Order appeareth to be lamentably defective.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 161-163

He then went to proclaim the basis for a new world order or civilisation and reveal the necessary institutions and laws to accompany that order.

The Ragin Pagan said:

Causing political division in men who seek only to disprove isn't a miracle. It's calling a bluff; hell, I've done that before. It's nothing more than recognizing that your critics have no argument against you, but want to disagree for sake of disagreeing. So you press them for a point, and it's soon seen that they have none.

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Even under the circumstances it was a bold move.

The Ragin Pagan said:

I also disagree with Baha'u'llah on testing god. Gods, more than anything, should be tested. A being that claims "I am god" - or more specifically, "I am the only god" - is, in my opinion, no true god. To state "Don't question me, or else!" only proves this all the more. Rather, test the gods. Go out into a thunderstorm, dare to defy Thor, and see for yourself what he is made of and capable of.

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The command not to test God goes back to Moses.

Deuteronomy 6:16

Jesus emphasised it.

Matthew 4:7, Luke 4:12

The Bab chastised Mulla Husayn for taking the same approach on the evening of their first encounter, even though he was the first to recognise Him.

Its no surprise that Baha'u'llah mentioned it.

If you are right and the God you test does not exist you have demonstrated courage. On the other hand if you are wrong, then this approach is not without risk. Sometimes there's a fine line between courage and the behaviour of fools.

adrian009 said:

You guys don't miss a beat. No sooner had I posted and you responded

As a Catholic how do you feel about having your core beliefs discussed and debated?

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I don't care, as long as it's respectful.

Carlita said:

Outside of that, no other issues.

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Saint Frankenstein said:

I don't care, as long as it's respectful.

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When I became a Baha'i over 25 years ago we had a lapsed Catholic attend one of our public meetings. She found the devotional aspect very moving. Soon after she returned to the Catholic Church. One Baha'i was disappointed but another was happy. The meeting had awakened something spiritual and that was the important aspect. For the women spirituality and the Catholic Church were interwoven and inseparable so it was only natural she returned.

The Baha'i teachings are the 'quickeners of mankind'...

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 91

...somewhat different from the Christian outlook of being 'fishermen for men'.

Matthew 4:19

Although I grew up Protestant I really like many Catholics I have come across and see much positive with the direction the Catholic Church is taking.

adrian009 said:

But Baha'u'llah prophesised that the whole system of Empires and Kings that had existed for millennia was about to end and a new world order was soon to come.

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The prophecy that you quoted said nothing of kings and empires. It only mentions a new and old order, and capitalizes order to give it a degree of importance. For all that's said, it could be speaking about any presidential election. It also seems to suggest a theocracy. He says that this system "has never been witnessed" by mortal eyes. Yet every system that we have right now has been. Democracy has been a thing since the Greeks. Parliaments have been around since the Alþingi of Iceland and the Løgting of the Faroe Islands. Literally nothing we have now is new.

The command not to test God goes back to Moses.

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Yes, I know. And I disagree with Jews and Christians just as much on the same issue.

If you are right and the God you test does not exist you have demonstrated courage. On the other hand if you are wrong, then this approach is not without risk.

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Not what I meant. To test a god isn't to test if they exist or not - obviously that can be included. But to "test" someone - gods included - means to push the boundaries of what they tolerate. To defy commandment, and see if there's really a reason for it after all. And yes, there's the common deterrent and final punishment of hell... But control through fear usually indicates a tentative grasp of power at best, and even an indication that such punishment isn't going to happen.

To test a god is to ask "why", and to not accept "because" as an answer.

The Ragin Pagan said:

The prophecy that you quoted said nothing of kings and empires.

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Of Napoleon III

In the year 1869 Bahá’u’lláh wrote to Napoleon III, rebuking him for his lust of war and for the contempt with which he had treated a former letter from Bahá’u’lláh. The Epistle contains the following stern warning:—


For what thou has done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou has wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou has plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to held this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless.


Needless to say, Napoleon, who was then at the zenith of his power, paid no heed to this warning. In the following year he went to war with Prussia, firmly convinced that his troops could easily gain Berlin; but the tragedy foretold by Bahá’u’lláh overwhelmed him. He was defeated at Saarbruck, at Weisenburg, at Metz, and finally in the crushing catastrophe at Sedan. He was then carried prisoner to Prussia, and came to a miserable end in England two years later.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 237-242

It was the second of two tablets addressed to this Monarch. Shoghi Effendi, leader of the Baha'i faith summarised as follows:

... To the Emperor of the French, Napoleon III, the most prominent and influential monarch of his day in the West, designated by Him as the "Chief of Sovereigns," and who, to quote His words, had "cast behind his back" the Tablet revealed for him in Adrianople, He, while a prisoner in the army barracks, addressed a second Tablet and transmitted it through the French agent in Akká. In this He announces the coming of "Him Who is the Unconstrained," whose purpose is to "quicken the world" and unite its peoples; unequivocally asserts that Jesus Christ was the Herald of His Mission; proclaims the fall of "the stars of the firmament of knowledge," who have turned aside from Him; exposes that monarch's insincerity; and clearly prophesies that his kingdom shall be "thrown into confusion," that his "empire shall pass" from his hands, and that "commotions shall seize all the people in that land," unless he arises to help the Cause of God and follow Him Who is His Spirit.

Tablets to Napoleon III

The Ragin Pagan said:

It only mentions a new and old order, and capitalizes order to give it a degree of importance. For all that's said, it could be speaking about any presidential election. It also seems to suggest a theocracy. He says that this system "has never been witnessed" by mortal eyes. Yet every system that we have right now has been. Democracy has been a thing since the Greeks. Parliaments have been around since the Alþingi of Iceland and the Løgting of the Faroe Islands. Literally nothing we have now is new.

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It is a theocracy, the breadth and scope that surpasses that of Moses and Muhammad outlining the ills to old world order and what's required for the new. It is for the entire planet during this critical time of humanities 'coming of age'. Another unique aspect is the succession of Divine authority passed from Baha'u'llah to Abdu'l-Baha, then Shohgi Effendi, and finally to the Universal House of Justice today. There are parallels with Christianity when Jesus indicated Peter would be the rock upon which the church would be founded, but Jesus said little about the nature and scope of that authority. Muhammad had indicated His son-in-law Ali was to be His successor but this was not written down. Because authority has clearly been passed down to elected institutions that derive authority from the pen of Baha'u'llah, Baha'is would argue this is a safeguard that protects it from schism.

The Ragin Pagan said:

Not what I meant. To test a god isn't to test if they exist or not - obviously that can be included. But to "test" someone - gods included - means to push the boundaries of what they tolerate. To defy commandment, and see if there's really a reason for it after all. And yes, there's the common deterrent and final punishment of hell... But control through fear usually indicates a tentative grasp of power at best, and even an indication that such punishment isn't going to happen.

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That is one way to work out where the boundaries are, by pushing the laws and even breaking them to see what happens. But is it not taught that we will 'reap what we sow'? The consequences will become apparent soon enough in this world depending on what laws you decide to test.

The Ragin Pagan said:

To test a god is to ask "why", and to not accept "because" as an answer.

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That is what God would want. In this day He wants those that follow Him out of love and knowledge, not fear and ignorance.

adrian009 said:

Of Napoleon III

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A "prophecy" that really only says "You're a bad leader, a rude man, and you're going to fall." It doesn't say when, how, or by whom.

It is a theocracy, the breadth and scope that surpasses that of Moses and Muhammad outlining the ills to old world order and what's required for the new. It is for the entire planet during this critical time of humanities 'coming of age'.

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Such a government has yet to ever come about. So this would most assuredly not be a fulfilled prophecy.

That is what God would want. In this day He wants those that follow Him out of love and knowledge, not fear and ignorance.

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Baha'i may certainly teach that, but Christianity and Islam certainly do not. Yahweh certainly doesn't have the best representatives on Earth.

Saint Frankenstein said:

I don't care, as long as it's respectful.

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I have had an epiphany! There is not just one but two lapsed Catholics debating the Baha'is on this thread. What do make of that?

Technically three. Though I am a professed Heathen, and do not regard myself as a Catholic in the slightest, according to the church (most modernly,) I am now and will always be a Catholic, as I was baptized in the church.

adrian009 said:

I have had an epiphany! There is not just one but two lapsed Catholics debating the Baha'is on this thread. What do make of that?

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Don't look at me!

The Ragin Pagan said:

A "prophecy" that really only says "You're a bad leader, a rude man, and you're going to fall." It doesn't say when, how, or by whom.

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Very well. At least it demonstrates Baha'u'llah to be perceptive.

Since we have a Catholic theme going its timely be mention His tablet to Pope Pius IX

Baha'u'llah also addressed Pope Pius IX in majestic language, calling upon him to recognize in this day the fulfillment of the promises of Jesus Christ:


Pope Pius IX

. . . Call thou to remembrance Him Who was the Spirit [Jesus], Who, when He came, the most learned of His age pronounced judgement against Him in His own country, whilst he who was only a fisherman believed in Him. Take heed, then, ye men of understanding heart! Thou, in truth, art one of the suns of the heaven of His names. Guard thyself, lest darkness spread its veils over thee, and fold thee away from His light. . . . Consider those who opposed the Son [Jesus], when He came unto them with sovereignty and power. How many the Pharisees who were waiting to behold Him, and were lamenting over their separation from Him! And yet, when the fragrance of His coming was wafted over them, and His beauty was unveiled, they turned aside from Him and disputed with Him. . . . None save a very few, who were destitute of any power amongst men, turned towards His face. And yet today every man endowed with power and invested with sovereignty prideth himself on His Name! In like manner, consider how numerous, in these days, are the monks who, in My Name, have secluded themselves in their churches, and who, when the appointed time was fulfilled, and We unveiled Our beauty, knew Us not, though they call upon Me at eventide and at dawn. . . . . . . The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous! . . . This is the day whereon the Rock [Peter] crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!” – Summons of the Lord of Hosts, paragraphs 106, 108, 112.

Baha’u’llah Warns Germany, Russia--and the Pope

This Pope looks like a nice enough man. How do you think he responded and what happened shortly afterwards?

The Ragin Pagan said:

Such a government has yet to ever come about. So this would most assuredly not be a fulfilled prophecy.

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That is true, but who would have considered the likelihood of the United Nations and the types of International governmental agencies we have now before world war I? Lets not kid ourselves that they are anything like those envisaged by Baha'u'llah. It must be acknowledged that we have made major progress. Sadly it was two world wars and the great depression that led to their establishment. We're more than likely going to have much more suffering soon as humanity seems to really be struggling with this whole unity concept.

The Ragin Pagan said:

Baha'i may certainly teach that, but Christianity and Islam certainly do not. Yahweh certainly doesn't have the best representatives on Earth.

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That was 2,000 and 1,400 years ago. Neither of these religions appear able to free themselves from the age in which they were revealed. Their adaptive power appears lost. Baha'is argue the voice of God has spoken again with a message for humanity today. How clear was the message to Pope Pius IX?

loverofhumanity said:

What is the problem is when people turn away from being good and become corrupt and greedy as you said which is the very opposite of what religions teach.

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You're proving my point. Religions in general have taught people to be good and have respect for their fellow man since before recorded history. Yet people are still crappy to each other. Secular/progressive movements and science have done more in a 100 years to bring enlightenment and improve civilization than religion has in thousands. I'd rather put my "faith" in something real instead of promises of some supernatural entity riding in to save the day at some undetermined point. Just saying.

The Ragin Pagan said:

Technically three. Though I am a professed Heathen, and do not regard myself as a Catholic in the slightest, according to the church (most modernly,) I am now and will always be a Catholic, as I was baptized in the church.

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You were the other lapsed Catholic I had in mind along with @Carlita . Are there any others here?

If its any consolation I was baptised in the protestant church.

Saint Frankenstein said:

Don't look at me!

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It is clear as the noon day sun you are not lapsed. it was @Carlita and @The Ragin Pagan to whom I referred.

I think you guys in Rome or wherever you are need to offer some serious prayers on their behalf!

adrian009 said:

who would have considered the likelihood of the United Nations and the types of International governmental agencies we have now before world war I?

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It's actually not that farfetched of an idea. On a global stage, it's no different than alliances of Highland clans, or Nordic jarldoms. It's actually a logical conclusion when considering global players and a divide of "East and West".

The Ragin Pagan said:

It's actually not that farfetched of an idea. On a global stage, it's no different than alliances of Highland clans, or Nordic jarldoms. It's actually a logical conclusion when considering global players and a divide of "East and West".

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It is simply the next step. We go from tribalism, to the city state, to the nation state, and now an international commonwealth.

Unification of the whole of mankind is the hall-mark of the stage which human society is now approaching. Unity of family, of tribe, of city-state, and nation have been successively attempted and fully established. World unity is the goal towards which a harassed humanity is striving. Nation-building has come to an end. The anarchy inherent in state sovereignty is moving towards a climax. A world, growing to maturity, must abandon this fetish, recognize the oneness and wholeness of human relationships, and establish once for all the machinery that can best incarnate this fundamental principle of its life.

Shoghi Effendi

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 202-206

How do you think the Muslims and Christians not to mention many others will feel about being one happy family together? like any step towards social progress there will be enormous resistance to change, but it has to happen.

World peace is not only possible, but inevitable. Whether it comes about through collective will and action or unimaginable suffering is the real choice before us.

The question is not 'if?', its 'when?'.

adrian009 said:

It is simply the next step. We go from tribalism, to the city state, to the nation state, and now an international commonwealth.

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The only problem is - and this runs contrary to Effendi's writings - many think that the United Nations is a failed experiment. There's even indication that we're watching it's dissolution. Our nations remain as politically founded, and steps are even being made to solidify those boundaries further.

How do you think the Muslims and Christians not to mention many others will feel about being one happy family together? like any step towards social progress there will be enormous resistance to change, but it has to happen.

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I couldn't say. But in my opinion, the best way towards being "one big happy family" is for us to have our own rooms. Having one culture, one religion, one language, etc the globe over will only lead to problems. In a true global community, diversity - in all things - should be celebrated. It's why I rail against the forced perspective of seeing people as "just people", and ignoring their culture or ethnicity. It's almost insulting in it's ignorance. We should not shed our past for the future.

World peace is not only possible, but inevitable.

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That I very much doubt and disagree on; that it's inevitable.

JustWondering said:

You're proving my point. Religions in general have taught people to be good and have respect for their fellow man since before recorded history. Yet people are still crappy to each other. Secular/progressive movements and science have done more in a 100 years to bring enlightenment and improve civilization than religion has in thousands. I'd rather put my "faith" in something real instead of promises of some supernatural entity riding in to save the day at some undetermined point. Just saying.

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Why not have both? Science and reason have brought progress and religion can operate at the heart of human motivation to inspire people to do great things. Didn't we have a movement in the last 100 years that tried to do away with religion? It was called communism. It wasn't too successful either.

Science and religion are the two wings of one bird. Both must be equally strong for the bird to fly: “Religion and science are the two wings upon which man’s intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone!” Baha'i faith

adrian009 said:

Why not have both? Science and reason have brought progress and religion can operate at the heart of human motivation to inspire people to do great things. Didn't we have a movement in the last 100 years that tried to do away with religion? It was called communism. It wasn't too successful either.

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Atheism does not equal communism. Nice try but you can put that strawman argument away.

Back to the main point, my argument still stands unscathed. Religion has been around since before recorded history and hasn't solved any of humanities real problems. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. So how is more of the same old song and dance going to change anything? Albert Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting different results. He was a smart guy and I agree with him.

The Ragin Pagan said:

The only problem is - and this runs contrary to Effendi's writings - many think that the United Nations is a failed experiment. There's even indication that we're watching it's dissolution. Our nations remain as politically founded, and steps are even being made to solidify those boundaries further.

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Sometimes we take 10 steps forward then 9 steps backwards. It was on the basis of incredible suffering from 1914-1945 that the United Nations came about. The League of Nations had been the abortive precursor after WWI. It has been over 70 years since it was founded and it has had many successes, though failures too. What appears to be happening in some countries is a return to nationalism and isolationism. That is what USA did until 1941 when they were forced to enter into WWII through Pearl Harbour. The reality is what America does as with any of the major countries affects the others as we are now so interdependent.

We need reform at the level of the security council but also economically with the World Bank and IMF. We have a system that is supporting the economic elites and increasing the disparity between the wealthy and the poor. Elimination of these extreme is of course another Baha'i teaching for the world. That disparity is fuelling resentment that leads to either apathy with election processes nationally, or mass manipulation as politicians appeal to be peoples base fears and prejudices.

62 people own the same as half the world, reveals Oxfam Davos report | Oxfam International

The Ragin Pagan said:

I couldn't say. But in my opinion, the best way towards being "one big happy family" is for us to have our own rooms. Having one culture, one religion, one language, etc the globe over will only lead to problems. In a true global community, diversity - in all things - should be celebrated. It's why I rail against the forced perspective of seeing people as "just people", and ignoring their culture or ethnicity. It's almost insulting in it's ignorance. We should not shed our past for the future.

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It comes back to recognising that it is unity in diversity, not conformity. It isn't some hollow phrase but respecting the diversity of the worlds inhabitants in regards to ethnicity, nationality, religion, and culture. Everyone has to have a place and belong. We can't exclude any group. People have to free to their ways of life and beliefs.

JustWondering said:

Religion has been around since before recorded history and hasn't solved any of humanities real problems.

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Religion's purpose is not to solve mankind's "real problems." Religion is organized worship, solving mankind's spiritual problems. If you expect religion to solve world hunger or peace... You're hanging from the wrong tree.