• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is conversion biblical?

Mystic-als

Active Member
Where do Christians get conversion from?
Jesus said go out and make desciples of all men. Not go preach the gospel, get people to believe what you say is true then run to the next bunch of suckers.

Jesus himself only had 12 and of the 12 Judas betrayed Jesus. So Jesus didn't get it 100% correct. But we expect to preach to hundreds and because the say "YES I BELIEVE" we think it's all done.

Who fed the desciples? Who gave the a place to stay? Who payed? The church? Most definitly not. I wonder if we are told that we could preach to as many as we like to become christians as long as we pay their bills. How many people would you "convert"? What would it mean to you?
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
Mystic-als said:
Where do Christians get conversion from?
Jesus said go out and make desciples of all men. Not go preach the gospel, get people to believe what you say is true then run to the next bunch of suckers.

Jesus himself only had 12 and of the 12 Judas betrayed Jesus. So Jesus didn't get it 100% correct. But we expect to preach to hundreds and because the say "YES I BELIEVE" we think it's all done.

Who fed the desciples? Who gave the a place to stay? Who payed? The church? Most definitly not. I wonder if we are told that we could preach to as many as we like to become christians as long as we pay their bills. How many people would you "convert"? What would it mean to you?

The Church needs converts to pay its bills and build up it treasures. More people who believe= more tithes. More tithes= more money for the church.

The Religion needs the faith of those who believe. Jesus told his disciples to "go and be fishers of men" in order to spread the joy of the Christian religion, not to build up the power of the clergy.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Mystic-als said:
Where do Christians get conversion from?
Jesus said go out and make desciples of all men. Not go preach the gospel, get people to believe what you say is true then run to the next bunch of suckers.

Hope is not for suckers.

Matt 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Mystic-als said:
Where do Christians get conversion from?
Jesus said go out and make desciples of all men. Not go preach the gospel, get people to believe what you say is true then run to the next bunch of suckers.

Jesus himself only had 12 and of the 12 Judas betrayed Jesus. So Jesus didn't get it 100% correct. But we expect to preach to hundreds and because the say "YES I BELIEVE" we think it's all done.

Who fed the desciples? Who gave the a place to stay? Who payed? The church? Most definitly not. I wonder if we are told that we could preach to as many as we like to become christians as long as we pay their bills. How many people would you "convert"? What would it mean to you?

I would just like to add to AE's post that Jesus had many more disciples than just the Twelve. Where do you think he got the Seventy that he sent out?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Rejected said:
The Church needs converts to pay its bills and build up it treasures. More people who believe= more tithes. More tithes= more money for the church.

The Religion needs the faith of those who believe. Jesus told his disciples to "go and be fishers of men" in order to spread the joy of the Christian religion, not to build up the power of the clergy.

I don't know anyone who searches for new converts for money because it doesn't pay. New members usually don't give. Churches have to rely on the generosity of older members rather than new folks.
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
angellous_evangellous said:
I don't know anyone who searches for new converts for money because it doesn't pay. New members usually don't give. Churches have to rely on the generosity of older members rather than new folks.

I was refering to the esatblishment of the early Catholic church, or Scientology. Pick one.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Rejected said:
I was refering to the esatblishment of the early Catholic church, or Scientology. Pick one.

That's going to be pretty hard to defend. Do you have any early texts that can be used to prove your case?

I'm not sure that you can even make that argument work for the actual establishment of the RC church in 900-1025.
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
You don’t need texts when you can see the results.
Look at the Cathedrals. Domes made of solid gold.
Where did the money to pay for all the commissioned artwork come from?
People could buy pardons. Instant salvation for you or a loved one, just give the priest enough money.

The Catholic Church pushed a religion upon unwilling people on pain of death to expand an empire. An empire where the majority of the clergy (the ambitious political type) exploited the faith of the people to establish a justified life of luxury during a time when poverty was the norm among the working class.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Rejected said:
You don’t need texts when you can see the results.
Look at the Cathedrals. Domes made of solid gold.
Where did the money to pay for all the commissioned artwork come from?
People could buy pardons. Instant salvation for you or a loved one, just give the priest enough money.

The Catholic Church pushed a religion upon unwilling people on pain of death to expand an empire. An empire where the majority of the clergy (the ambitious political type) exploited the faith of the people to establish a justified life of luxury during a time when poverty was the norm among the working class.

There's a beautiful church in Paris that boasts huge golden doors. They are very expensive and very ornate. Above the doors is carved a quotation:

"Whoever thou art, if thou seekest to extol the glory of these doors, marvel not at the gold and the expense, but at the craftsmanship of the work. Bright is the noble work. and, being nobly bright, it will brighten the mind, so that it may travel through the light to the true light where Christ is the true door..."

What better thing to spend our money on than something that ennobles the mind to see Christ in a truer way?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Rejected said:
You don’t need texts when you can see the results.
Look at the Cathedrals. Domes made of solid gold.
Where did the money to pay for all the commissioned artwork come from?
People could buy pardons. Instant salvation for you or a loved one, just give the priest enough money.

The Catholic Church pushed a religion upon unwilling people on pain of death to expand an empire. An empire where the majority of the clergy (the ambitious political type) exploited the faith of the people to establish a justified life of luxury during a time when poverty was the norm among the working class.

You've just described the Church after 1520s. Now you have to demonstrate the relationship between this Church and the early church to make your conclusions. Evidence comes in handy here...
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
angellous_evangellous said:
You've just described the Church after 1520s. Now you have to demonstrate the relationship between this Church and the early church to make your conclusions. Evidence comes in handy here...

I let a little venom spill out. Sorry.
It still doesn't speak well of the church, regardless of the time period.

It’s hard to say what the actual motives of the Christians were in the first few centuries of the religion, so I withdraw the statement.

In reference to the OP I would assume that the early Christians were tasked with spreading the gospel of Christ out of concern for humanity. Since Christ wants us all to "love thy neighbor as thyself" and the only way to avoid damnation is to accept Christ, then they would have to go among the nations of the world and make disciples of them, as you referenced in Matt 28.

Unfortunately the process got perverted along the way.
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
So if this "convertion" that we have today is a perversion of what was meant to be then couldn't it be that tithing is also. Or the whole idea of a priest or pastor "teaching" us how to live our lives a perversion of what Jesus meant.
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
Mystic-als said:
So if this "convertion" that we have today is a perversion of what was meant to be then couldn't it be that tithing is also. Or the whole idea of a priest or pastor "teaching" us how to live our lives a perversion of what Jesus meant.

No, the teachers are not the perversions, you can’t expect people to know the story of the gospel from birth, it must be taught. What I’m against is the indiscriminate solicitation of money from the parsonage when it is in no way supported in scripture.
Luke

9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. He ... gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
9:3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
9:4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

The concept of tithing was introduced so that those who devoted their lives to god and their communities (the clergy) would not go hungry. The NT says nothing of tithing, in fact as the passage above me illustrates Jesus seemed to have looked down upon his disciples taking up treasures and the bible repeatedly warns against building up earthly wealth.

Matthew
6:19
6:25-34
19:21-24

Proverbs
8:10-11
22:1

Ecclesiastes
5:10-15


What the bible does tell us it to give to the poor not the church.

Exodus
23:11

Leviticus
19:10
23:22

Deuteronomy
15:7-8
24:14-21

Psalms
41:1
82:3-4
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Rejected said:
What the bible does tell us it to give to the poor not the church.

The two aren't necessarily in conflict are they? We don't tithe (the Orthodox Church has no such stipulation) but we do voluntarily donate money to the church. One of the things that was recently done with this money was to help a poor Romanian family (and I do mean poor) out whilst they are in Britain getting medical treatment for a child (who needed a bone marrow transplant). Just because people donate money to the Church for works of art and the like doesn't mean that donating can't also help the poor.

James
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
I think this is fine. BUT many churches don't do exactly what they tell us they are going to do with our money. They spend it on new this or some more of that. etc.
Then the poor get a small fraction of what they should. I think if you want to give your money to the poor you don't need a broker to do it for you.
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
JamesThePersian said:
The two aren't necessarily in conflict are they? We don't tithe (the Orthodox Church has no such stipulation) but we do voluntarily donate money to the church. One of the things that was recently done with this money was to help a poor Romanian family (and I do mean poor) out whilst they are in Britain getting medical treatment for a child (who needed a bone marrow transplant). Just because people donate money to the Church for works of art and the like doesn't mean that donating can't also help the poor.

James

Not at all. If you want to give your money to the church then that’s your prerogative. If you are happy with what the church does with you hard earned money then give all you want to. But I think it is wrong for churched to require their congregations to give money.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The concept of tithing was introduced so that those who devoted their lives to god and their communities (the clergy) would not go hungry.

Actually, the concept of tithing is OT and has to do with spiritual discipline, not temporal management.
 

Rejected

Under Reconstruction
sojourner said:
Actually, the concept of tithing is OT and has to do with spiritual discipline, not temporal management.

But those tithes were ritual sacrifices to god, in the form of livestock and crops, which were usually burnt, and what was left over usually went to the priest, so he wouldn't starve.
 

Mystic-als

Active Member
It is OT yes but is mensioned in the NT also. Even if it wasn't though. Just being in the OT is enough. The bible is a complete work. Not OT or NT. If it was divided then we ought to just tear it in half and follow whichever half we like.
I'm not defending Tithing. Because I personally don't think it is right in the way it's portrayed today. I am saying though that giving money to the poor should be just that. Giving moey to the poor. Not the church.
 
Top