Prayers to the dead

Spiderman · Feb 9, 2017

But then again...something doesn't have to be in the Bible for it to be true. I read the book "The Spirits book" and am convinced that it is true.

I believe there are real mediums. I also believe that the Saints have to work two miracles after their death before they can be canonized.

Some people think something has to be in the Bible to be true, yet nothing in the Bible says that something has to be in the Bible to be true.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 9, 2017

Ingledsva said:
Or, as the Hebrew actually did it, - maybe Jesus did also, and those Christians who did so, - were the real followers of Jesus?
*

To me, the first real or genuine followers of Jesus were, for the most part, the first-century Christians.
Before that, the Hebrews were under the temporary Constitution of the Mosaic Law for them.
Right after the death of Jesus' apostles an apostasy would set in as mentioned at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
That deep spiritual sleep, so to speak, set in right away after the first-century ended.
That fits in with Jesus' illustration about how the genuine ' wheat ' Christians would grow together over the centuries with the fake ' weed/tares' Christians until the ' harvest time '.
We know a harvest comes at an end time. For us it is the end times of badness on Earth - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
That end harvest time is in connection to the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth of Matthew 25:31-33,37 when Jesus will separate people, and the wicked (weed/tares) will come to a final destruction forever as mentioned at Psalms 92:7.
Then, Jesus will usher in global world peace on Earth among people of goodwill.

Milton Platt · Feb 9, 2017

PopeADope said:
Prayers to the dead were always common in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. Before a Saint can be canonized they have to work two miracles. Here are some miracles worked by the Virgin Mary: Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia.... Miracles of Lourdes

Your loved ones in Heaven continue to assist the earth. Continue to invoke them and they will continue to bless you and intercede for you. The Communion of Saints is a fellowship of Christians both living and dead. The souls in a state of purification in purgatory are also a member of the mystical body of Christ.

Revelation 5:8 presents the saints in heaven as linked by prayer with their fellow Christians on earth.

I don't believe in miracles but that is another discussion. As to praying to the dead, can you demonstrate that dead people hear anything at all without using hearsay as evidence?

Spiderman · Feb 9, 2017

Milton Platt said:
I don't believe in miracles but that is another discussion. As to praying to the dead, can you demonstrate that dead people hear anything at all without using hearsay as evidence?

I cannot demonstrate it anymore than I can demonstrate God exists

Milton Platt · Feb 9, 2017

PopeADope said:
I cannot demonstrate it anymore than I can demonstrate God exists

And there is the problem. But you are honest about that and thank you for your honesty.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 12, 2017

Christ's Prophet said:
I couldn’t agree with you less. I would ask you ‘what is the two themes of Ecclesiastes?’ Have you studied them? The first phrase is ‘under the sun’ (28 times) and the second phrase is ‘all is vanity’ or similar (32 times). These themes dominate this book. King Solomon the writer is only looking at life from this earth’s standpoint, that whatever is under the sun is all vanity. The dead indeed have been removed from out of the communion of the living and we cannot communicate with them and they indeed know nothing of this earth because they are in a different realm and they will never return here. We must be careful not to take Scriptures out of context that is how false religions start. Certainty for eternity

I agree the dead know nothing ( Ecclesiastes 9:5 ), and we can Not communicate with the dead.
To me the 'realm' that Jesus put the dead in is in a 'sleep-like state' as mentioned at John 11:11-14.
Also, the old Hebrew Scriptures agree that the dead sleep -> Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13.
So, while Jesus was dead in the grave ( Acts 2:27) Jesus was in an unconscious sleep-like condition.
After God resurrected Jesus, then spirit person Jesus remained around the Earth for 40 days in his spirit body.
In other words, before God sent Jesus to Earth, Jesus had a spirit body and returned back to his spirit body.
As far as the people Jesus' resurrected, ALL his resurrections were healthy physical earthly resurrections.
In other words, those dead people did return to life right here on Earth.
Adam, and none of us, had a pre-human life. Adam was only offered everlasting life on: Earth.
So, God's purpose is to have the Earth populated with righteous people - Proverbs 2:21-22
Righteous, or meek people to inherit the Earth - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:10-11
If there is No resurrecting to Earth, then Isaiah 25:8 is wrong because death will be swallowed up forever on Earth.

Christ's Prophet · Feb 25, 2017

URAVIP2ME said:
I agree the dead know nothing ( Ecclesiastes 9:5 ), and we can Not communicate with the dead.
To me the 'realm' that Jesus put the dead in is in a 'sleep-like state' as mentioned at John 11:11-14.
Also, the old Hebrew Scriptures agree that the dead sleep -> Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13.
So, while Jesus was dead in the grave ( Acts 2:27) Jesus was in an unconscious sleep-like condition.
After God resurrected Jesus, then spirit person Jesus remained around the Earth for 40 days in his spirit body.
In other words, before God sent Jesus to Earth, Jesus had a spirit body and returned back to his spirit body.
As far as the people Jesus' resurrected, ALL his resurrections were healthy physical earthly resurrections.
In other words, those dead people did return to life right here on Earth.
Adam, and none of us, had a pre-human life. Adam was only offered everlasting life on: Earth.
So, God's purpose is to have the Earth populated with righteous people - Proverbs 2:21-22
Righteous, or meek people to inherit the Earth - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:10-11
If there is No resurrecting to Earth, then Isaiah 25:8 is wrong because death will be swallowed up forever on Earth.

Is Scripture your final authority? Then you need to consider:-
Acts 2:31-32 (KJV)
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in HADES, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
And again
John 2:18-21 (KJV)
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Question: How could Jesus raise His own body up if He was around the earth somewhere?
And again
1 Peter 3:18-20 (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I think our Lord Jesus was very busy in ministry whilst His body was buried for those three days.
You mention a sleep-like-state first in John 11:11-14 etc.
We must be careful not to add to Scripture, that which is not there. In this case it is ‘sleep-like’. We must fear God and not manipulate His word. If we manipulate His word, then we become the authority and not God. The words ‘sleep’ and being dead are often used interchangeably, but death is not ‘sleep like.’
Certainty for eternity

URAVIP2ME · Feb 26, 2017

Christ's Prophet said:
Is Scripture your final authority? Then you need to consider:-
Acts 2:31-32 (KJV)
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in HADES, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
And again
John 2:18-21 (KJV)
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Question: How could Jesus raise His own body up if He was around the earth somewhere?
And again
1 Peter 3:18-20 (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I think our Lord Jesus was very busy in ministry whilst His body was buried for those three days.
You mention a sleep-like-state first in John 11:11-14 etc.
We must be careful not to add to Scripture, that which is not there. In this case it is ‘sleep-like’. We must fear God and not manipulate His word. If we manipulate His word, then we become the authority and not God. The words ‘sleep’ and being dead are often used interchangeably, but death is not ‘sleep like.’
Certainty for eternity

Thank you for your reply.
Yes, I have considered 1 Peter 3:18-20 especially in the light of 2 Peter 4-5 because the spirits in prison are Not dead people. They are the un-dead fallen angels of Noah's day - Jude 1:6
They saw the resurrected Jesus, thus then knowing Jesus' was faithful and their destruction was coming.

Because Jesus had a pre-human spirit body when ' God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell ' then Jesus regained his previous heavenly spirit body -> Acts 2:32; Acts 3:15; Acts 5:30; Colossians 2:12

The dead know nothing as we are Not aware of the passing of time while asleep.
To me that is why Jesus' teaching likened death to sleep at John 11:12-14
Jesus' teachings are in harmony with the old Hebrew Scriptures such as found at:
Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

So, Jesus did Not literally raise up his own unconscious dead body but his God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell/ temporary grave. If the Bible's hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in hell.- Acts 2:27
Rather, the resurrected Jesus has the keys to unlock biblical hell/ grave - Revelation 1:18.

Since Jesus would only speak to the crowds by way of illustrations / parables, then John 2:20 is used in an illustrative way or use.- Matthew 13:34; Matthew 27:40.

lostwanderingsoul · Feb 26, 2017

Jesus used parables so that most people would NOT understand.

Christ's Prophet · Feb 26, 2017

URAVIP2ME said:
Thank you for your reply.
Yes, I have considered 1 Peter 3:18-20 especially in the light of 2 Peter 4-5 because the spirits in prison are Not dead people. They are the un-dead fallen angels of Noah's day - Jude 1:6
They saw the resurrected Jesus, thus then knowing Jesus' was faithful and their destruction was coming.

Because Jesus had a pre-human spirit body when ' God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell ' then Jesus regained his previous heavenly spirit body -> Acts 2:32; Acts 3:15; Acts 5:30; Colossians 2:12

The dead know nothing as we are Not aware of the passing of time while asleep.
To me that is why Jesus' teaching likened death to sleep at John 11:12-14
Jesus' teachings are in harmony with the old Hebrew Scriptures such as found at:
Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

So, Jesus did Not literally raise up his own unconscious dead body but his God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell/ temporary grave. If the Bible's hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in hell.- Acts 2:27
Rather, the resurrected Jesus has the keys to unlock biblical hell/ grave - Revelation 1:18.

Since Jesus would only speak to the crowds by way of illustrations / parables, then John 2:20 is used in an illustrative way or use.- Matthew 13:34; Matthew 27:40.

Let me get this straight. You are saying that 1 Peter 3:18-20 is the same as 2 Peter 4:5. This means then that you are saying that fallen angels can repent and be saved when they receive the Gospel message? Now really Christ, did not die for fallen angels, nor is the word ‘Angels’ mentioned in that passage. He died only for the sins of fallen mankind who are made in His image. 1 Peter 3:18-20 is not saying anything about angels. Jude 1:6 makes it plainly clear that the fallen angels are reserved for judgment for the last day. They do not get out of their prison-ever.
You seemed to be relentlessly sticking to the fact the God the Father raised Jesus from the dead, and avoiding the fact that Jesus raised His own body from the dead, or that the Holy Ghost raised our Lord Jesus from the dead. All are true. That is why the tomb was empty when it was first examined, because it was a bodily resurrection.
Consider:-
Jesus raised His own body from the dead.
John 2:19, John 10:17:- Jesus raised His own body from the dead. He has the power to lay it down, and He has the power to take it up again.
JESUS HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF
John 5:26:- Jesus is not reliant on anyone else for life or resurrection.
THE FATHER RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD
Romans 6:4. The Father raised Jesus from the dead. You haven’t mentioned this Scripture yet.
THE HOLY GHOST RAISED UP JESUS FROM THE DEAD
Romans 8:11:- The Holy Spirit raised up Jesus from the dead.
So we see that there is the involvement of the blessed Holy Trinity in the resurrection.
Certainty for eternity

Saint Frankenstein · Feb 26, 2017

I love it. It's one of those things about Catholicism that gives me great comfort, that death doesn't separate us from our family. It's like the Christian version of ancestral veneration, but on a much larger scale.

URAVIP2ME · Mar 5, 2017

Christ's Prophet said:
Let me get this straight. You are saying that 1 Peter 3:18-20 is the same as 2 Peter 4:5. This means then that you are saying that fallen angels can repent and be saved when they receive the Gospel message? Now really Christ, did not die for fallen angels, nor is the word ‘Angels’ mentioned in that passage. He died only for the sins of fallen mankind who are made in His image. 1 Peter 3:18-20 is not saying anything about angels. Jude 1:6 makes it plainly clear that the fallen angels are reserved for judgment for the last day. They do not get out of their prison-ever.
You seemed to be relentlessly sticking to the fact the God the Father raised Jesus from the dead, and avoiding the fact that Jesus raised His own body from the dead, or that the Holy Ghost raised our Lord Jesus from the dead. All are true. That is why the tomb was empty when it was first examined, because it was a bodily resurrection.
Consider:-
Jesus raised His own body from the dead.
John 2:19, John 10:17:- Jesus raised His own body from the dead. He has the power to lay it down, and He has the power to take it up again.
JESUS HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF
John 5:26:- Jesus is not reliant on anyone else for life or resurrection.
THE FATHER RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD
Romans 6:4. The Father raised Jesus from the dead. You haven’t mentioned this Scripture yet.
THE HOLY GHOST RAISED UP JESUS FROM THE DEAD
Romans 8:11:- The Holy Spirit raised up Jesus from the dead.
So we see that there is the involvement of the blessed Holy Trinity in the resurrection.
Certainty for eternity

No, the fallen spirit angels can Not repent. They do Not remain in prison but will be: destroyed.
Just as Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B - they will be destroyed forever.
Or, as Psalms 92:7 mentions the wicked will be destroyed forever ( Annihilated )

No, to me Jesus did Not resurrect himself according to:
Acts of the Apostles 2:24,32; Acts 3:15; Acts 5:30; Acts 13:30,37; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 2:12 B
Who granted immortality to Christ according to John 5:26 but his Father.
Jesus was Not granted immortality until God resurrected Jesus out of hell ( grave ) - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
The resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12

The spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead is God's spirit - Psalms 104:30; Romans 8:11; Acts 2:24
No where does it say Jesus' spirit. The ' spirit of him ' is in reference to the God of Jesus. - Revelation 3:12

URAVIP2ME · Mar 5, 2017

lostwanderingsoul said:
Jesus used parables so that most people would NOT understand.

Or, rather, to me, that most people (the many) would 'choose' Not to understand - Matthew 7:21-23
To those who wanted understanding Jesus explained to them - Matthew 13:36; Mark 4:34; Acts of the Apostles 11:4
Anyone who wanted the Way of God expounded more clearly could understand - Acts of the Apostles 18:26

lostwanderingsoul · Mar 5, 2017

Mark 4:10-13 shows that Jesus used parables so people would not understand. It had nothing to do with choice.

Prayers to the dead

Spiderman

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URAVIP2ME

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Milton Platt

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Spiderman

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Milton Platt

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URAVIP2ME

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Christ's Prophet

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URAVIP2ME

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lostwanderingsoul

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Christ's Prophet

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Saint Frankenstein

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URAVIP2ME

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URAVIP2ME

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lostwanderingsoul

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