Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

Dawnofhope · Feb 22, 2017

omega2xx said:
No. The only thing said to be allegorical in the Bible is in Gal 4:21-31. We know Sarah and Hagar were literal, historical people. However there are many more from the OT. The most famous one is probably Nathan's confrontation with David about his adultery with Bathsheba and murder of Uriah---2 Sam 12:1-7.

IMO most if not all of the OT is an allegory of either the work of Jesus or the life of a Christian or both. I have just stated a study of what may be the most beautify allegory of the work of Christ in the entire Bible. If you are interested, ask me in about a week.

Parables have the same goal(teach a spiritual truth) but must be interpreted differently. Usually a parable takes something we are familiar with---sowing a field. In them we must determine what the different elements symbolize, and they must be consistent throughout the Bible. There is one exception.

Jesus give us this principle by interpreting his first 2 parables for us---The parables of the sower.
In them he makes the substitutions for us: All the people of His day would have seen a farmer sowing seed in his field. The sower is Jesus(Mt 13:37), the field is the world(Mt 13:38), the good seed is the sons of the kingdom, Christians.

Here is the one exception, which I don't see as an exception---In Luke 8:11, the seed is the word of God. There is a theorem that says, "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other." That means Christians are the word of God. This is reinforced in 2 Cor 3:2-3.

Hope this helps.

Thank you. I always enjoy hearing the insights and perspective of my Christian brothers and sisters regardless of differences. I am a Baha'i and of the Holy Bible, Abdu'l-Baha had this to say:

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 17-18

psychoslice · Feb 22, 2017

Terrywoodenpic said:
Clearly you think you can read peoples minds.......
If you read a few of my posts you will see that I rarely quote on matters of faith.

I can not recall ever seeing....
"He is there, as is the Holy Spirit, when I turn to God"
....quoted anywhere... But if I did I would confirm it.

I have just Googled that phrase and nothing remotely like it is listed amongst all the billions of pages.... It seems to be original to me.... which seems rather a shame, as it is true.

Well good for you, ,that is how it should be.

psychoslice · Feb 22, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
I caught you! Israel had the monopoly on that if you read Exodus 4:22,23. God Himself said, "Israel is My Son; so, let
My Son go that he may serve Me. Tell me, do you have a Bible? If so, don't forget to read Exodus 4:22,23.

Yes it seems that way if you take the writings selfishly.

omega2xx · Feb 22, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Well! Can I have an eyewitness for an evidence that Jesus resurrected or you can't produce one? Yes, I have evidences that Jesus did not resurrect. The fact that he was literally incarnated, no problem; we all have been. Literally, each one of us is incarnated as we are born. To resurrect, one must return from his eternal home in the grave and this is impossible if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

Present your evidence that Jesus was not resurrected. To be resurrected only requires coming back to life after dying. You man-mad requirements are not valid.

omega2xx · Feb 22, 2017

adrian009 said:
Thank you. I always enjoy hearing the insights and perspective of my Christian brothers and sisters regardless of differences. I am a Baha'i and of the Holy Bible, Abdu'l-Baha had this to say:

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 17-18

That is a good summary of the Bible. IMO, one can't be a Christian with an incorrect understanding of the person of Jesus., which includes Jerus is God, not a God. I am not sure Bahai has that understanding.

Dawnofhope · Feb 22, 2017

omega2xx said:
That is a good summary of the Bible. IMO, one can't be a Christian with an incorrect understanding of the person of Jesus., which includes Jerus is God, not a God. I am not sure Bahai has that understanding.

Thanks for your response.

Do you believe Jesus is physically God incarnate? Lets examine this.

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in this manner Moses also speaks as God

Deuteronomy 29:2-6
"These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God."

Another essential aspect of understanding Jesus is as 'Son of God' but I'll let you consider my arguments based on scripture that He is a perfect reflection of God's Holy Spirit, not God incarnate.

Best Wishes

omega2xx · Feb 23, 2017

adrian009 said:
Thanks for your response.

Do you believe Jesus is physically God incarnate? Lets examine this.

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in this manner Moses also speaks as God

Deuteronomy 29:2-6
"These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God."

Another essential aspect of understanding Jesus is as 'Son of God' but I'll let you consider my arguments based on scripture that He is a perfect reflection of God's Holy Spirit, not God incarnate.

Best Wishes

First let me address Jn 5:19. To become our faithful High Priest Jesus had to be made exactly like His brethren(Heb 2:17) We are not omnipotent, omniscient nor omnipresent. Neither was Jesus during His incarnation, He emptied himself of these qualities(Phil 2:7).

IMO the Bible clearly teaches Jesus is God.(Jn 1:1 & 10:30. There are other verse that teach this but they are not really needed. So, again IMO, one must believe Jesus is God to be a Christian.

I hope you don't see my understanding as a insult to your religion. Bahai is certainly a moral based religion and I sincerely respect any religion based on being moral and treating everyone with respect. However being moral does not make one a Christian, although Christians should be as moral as they can be. Chapter 7 of Romans shows us what Christians are up against.

My comment was based on my understanding of God's word.

BilliardsBall · Feb 23, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Nothing can be a miracle to the Creator of the Universe. So, God is not in the miracle birth business. A miracle by definition is something beyond the natural power of man, not of God.

Not even close to an answer to my response to you, but my point stands.

A miracle birth for Jesus is not a big deal considering the many miracle births in both testaments.

Muffled · Feb 23, 2017

adrian009 said:
Did Jesus physically rise from the dead or this an allegorical story?

Perhaps its both and maybe neither?

What is the best way of understanding this core Christian belief?

I believe the evidence is that He rose from the dead.

BilliardsBall · Feb 23, 2017

adrian009 said:
What is the evidence from your perspective?

We can verify the Bible as the work of a super-intelligent source outside of linear time using some of the following tools:

Cosmology
Archaeology
Ontology
Teleology
History
Life Changes
Biblical authority
Etc.

The resurrection has been called the best documented event in the ancient world. We have a dozen eyewitnesses in the NT (Christians) and about ten fine 1st century historians (non-Christians) who talk about the effect of and the stories of the resurrection.

There is a strong will in man that is self-willed. It takes effort to deny the resurrection of Christ.

BilliardsBall · Feb 23, 2017

adrian009 said:
It caught on because it was the recipient of Divine assistance and confirmations.

The Gospels have been preached to all the Nations, the Jews have returned to their homeland, and the stars have fallen from heaven.

That's the most important aspect of Christ's resurrection to me. His teachings could enable the blind to see, the lame to walk, and the dead rise from their graves of disbelief and walk the spiritual life.

That's is true but to what extent they are stories of historical truth as opposed to allegory is the question that concerns me.

The gospels have not been preached to all peoples. The stars have not fallen from Heaven, Lucifer hasn't been cast out of Heaven nor has Armageddon begun.

Regardless, denying the literal, bodily resurrection of Jesus is not a biblical stance.

Muffled · Feb 23, 2017

allfoak said:
If you recall the story of Jesus praying and sweating out drops of blood, then you will understand what happened to him.
He died within and became one with the Father.

I believe that is a non-sequitur. It does not follow that sweating blood means the person dies within.

Muffled · Feb 23, 2017

Carlita said:
In my opinion, christianity teaches christ literally rose from the dead. If christ only rose symbolically, what does that say of christians who believe they will go to heaven? Is their belief symbolic? I'd say literal.

I believe it shows they don't understand the scripture.

BilliardsBall · Feb 23, 2017

Ben Avraham said:
Well! Can I have an eyewitness for an evidence that Jesus resurrected or you can't produce one? Yes, I have evidences that Jesus did not resurrect. The fact that he was literally incarnated, no problem; we all have been. Literally, each one of us is incarnated as we are born. To resurrect, one must return from his eternal home in the grave and this is impossible if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

Oh yes, PLEASE share all of your contemporary, written documentary evidence that disproves the resurrection. I can't wait to read actual documents to counter-claim the dozens of documents we do have from the period. This will be SO helpful.

Muffled · Feb 23, 2017

allfoak said:
No, it is an allegorical representation of an inward process.
Somehow Christians think if it was not all literal then there is no savior but their savior is within them.

I believe there is no evidence to support that view.

I believe you must be listening to the wrong Christians. No one I know believes that.

I believe there is a difference. Jesus is in us not within us. God is within everything but not in everyone.

Muffled · Feb 23, 2017

adrian009 said:
Are you aware that many early Christians did not believe in a physical resurrection at all?

Another aspect is that the Christian world view included a physical hell below the earth and heaven up in the sky. The earth was the centre of the universe. That creates problems if we still have this belief because we know a lot more about what's up there in space now than we used to.

If we see heaven and hell as being in the invisible spiritual realm then it creates difficulties with Jesus literally rising into heaven if that means the sky.

I believe Christians should go by the Bible which says there is a literal Heaven and Hell but does not say that the earth is the center of the universe.

I believe there is an ambiguity between Heaven (void inside the universe) and heaven (sky). I believe Jesus ascended into the sky but that does not mean He is nearby.

Muffled · Feb 23, 2017

omega2xx said:
First let me address Jn 5:19. To become our faithful High Priest Jesus had to be made exactly like His brethren(Heb 2:17) We are not omnipotent, omniscient nor omnipresent. Neither was Jesus during His incarnation, He emptied himself of these qualities(Phil 2:7).

IMO the Bible clearly teaches Jesus is God.(Jn 1:1 & 10:30. There are other verse that teach this but they are not really needed. So, again IMO, one must believe Jesus is God to be a Christian.

I hope you don't see my understanding as a insult to your religion. Bahai is certainly a moral based religion and I sincerely respect any religion based on being moral and treating everyone with respect. However being moral does not make one a Christian, although Christians should be as moral as they can be. Chapter 7 of Romans shows us what Christians are up against.

My comment was based on my understanding of God's word.

I believe the text does not specifically state that those qualities were emptied and there is enough evidence to show that Jesus displays those qualities.

I don't believe there is any evidence to support that view.

Unveiled Artist · Feb 23, 2017

Muffled said:
I believe it shows they don't understand the scripture.

It's by experience not by interpretation of scripture. If you have not experienced communion and resurrection from communion, of course things in the Bible would be symbolic. Though, I don't think many Christians would define their religion as symbolic.

omega2xx · Feb 23, 2017

Muffled said:
I believe the text does not specifically state that those qualities were emptied and there is enough evidence to show that Jesus displays those qualities.

I don't believe there is any evidence to support that view.

Sure there is. Jesus could not be in more than one place at the same time. There were times when He did not know the answser and He said what He could do nothing on His own iniative.

Dawnofhope · Feb 23, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
The resurrection has been called the best documented event in the ancient world. We have a dozen eyewitnesses in the NT (Christians) and about ten fine 1st century historians (non-Christians) who talk about the effect of and the stories of the resurrection.

There is a strong will in man that is self-willed. It takes effort to deny the resurrection of Christ.

With all that evidence it should be very easy to convince me. I'm a reasonable person

BilliardsBall said:
The gospels have not been preached to all peoples.

They have been preached to all the nations though....

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

BilliardsBall said:
The stars have not fallen from Heaven

I would argue that the terms stars, mood, and sun better refer to the conditions within religion where the sun of Divine guidance has been dimmed, the Holy Teachings of Jesus have been obscured and corrupted, and many of the saints and leaders of Christianity of this age have fallen into disrepute.

Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

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