*clicks ignore*
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Atheism vs religion which bird is a better bird?
- Thread starter David T
- Start date
james bond
Well-Known Member
I guess I'm suppose to be a Harley rider, but I'm a naked bike Ducati or naked bike fan myself so I don't what that makes me. I love raw power in a car, but on a bike, I like to be fast and nimble. Is everyone suppose to fit? I'm not sure what the trend is.
james bond
Well-Known Member
I think they're both religions. You're right they're not complementary, but isn't it being extreme that they have no function at all? What if it was only atheism and the Greek gods or paganism? Would you pick the believers side then?
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
Much appreciated!
While a share your concerns about the strong association with religion and violence, there two sides to a coin. Christianity spread far and wide despite persecution and opposition for nearly 300 years before the emperor Constantine became involved. My religion the Baha'i Faith has spread rapidly throughout many countries despite thousands of our early followers being put to death. I doubt if the Buddhists were too brutal. They all have a message of peace, love, and justice that have had a profound influence on hearts and minds.
siti
Well-Known Member
So about 400 out of the last 6000 years of religious history have been marked by peaceful persuasion rather than forced compliance. Not an especially impressive statistic. I'm not belabouring the point to win an argument, and like I said, I do have respect for some of the teachings of the ancient sages (whoever they were) - but I really think it is time to decide whether we should 'shoot the messenger' and in this case the 'messenger' is religion and it has sometimes wantonly, often deliberately and almost always forcibly garbled the message. Religion is the problem, not the answer. Human wisdom (as encapsulated in some - by no means all, but some - of the ancient scriptural traditions) is the answer. I agree that 'Krishna', 'Buddha', 'Moses', 'Jesus' and even 'Mohammed' possessed human wisdom, but to the extent that their followers elevate that wisdom to the level of 'religious truth', to that extent they miss the point of that wisdom.
When atheism became enshrined in a socio-political movement called communism it didn't.
Agreed
There can be little doubt as to the importance of universal education. Science has clear value. I agree with the arts and humanities but in my country it is seen as being less valuable and funding is being cut. Religion has largely been removed from our schools. Unfortunately it has just exacerbated the widespread confusion and misunderstanding about the role of religion.
I agree with all of this, but how effective is it? Do you honestly believe this will be sufficient?
That sounds rather violent! Jesus used similar language when He said I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. Like you he was not speaking literally and had something else in mind. So lets dispense with religion.
What do you propose to bring peace and address the urgent needs of humanity? Is that a question you care about?
siti
Well-Known Member
Humanism. Non-religious, science-based humanistic reasoning. Which is what we can actually distill out of the recorded sentiments of the ancient sages if we think about it carefully enough. Thomas Jefferson did that with the Jesus story you may recall, trimmed all the supernatural and overtly religious clap-trap and was left with a few pages of humanistic moral reasoning. Of course the sayings of a middle-eastern bronze age carpenter might not be entirely suitable or anywhere near comprehensive enough for the challenges that face 21st century humanity. But that's the approach I think, rather than attempting to justify the religious aspects because they seem to have functioned as patrons of ancient or medieval intellectualism and the arts, as if we could not have been smart, innovative or creative without religion.
At least you can give your philosophy a name and it clearly has positive aspects such as the concerns for reason, ethics, and working towards a better world. Unlike communism I'm not aware that its done any harm. These are all essential aspects of my 'Faith'. If your way is effective and can meet the challenges of a distracted confused humanity I'm all for it. If it doesn't then providing it does no harm that is fine. Regardless it will be valuable learning along the way.
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."
Michelangelo
siti
Well-Known Member
@adrian009 that's the second time you have brought communism up in a thread that is clearly about religion. Please see my comment in the "Communism is right because" thread for a perspective on this that makes your appeals to ancient religion versus flat out rejection of communism untenable. The point is that communism has a much more ancient pedigree and a much more peaceful record overall (notwithstanding the misguided and unsuccessful attempts to reestablish forcefully it over the last century) than any of the ancient religious systems you have claimed to have had a positive influence on humanity. These political sideswipes do your argument and your credibility in this thread no favours at all IMO.
This thread is about atheism verses religion. Communism is entirely relevant to discuss in this thread as it is a political and economic theory with an atheistic and anti-religious ideology. We can argue the merits or otherwise of communism as we can for religion. People in glass houses...you know the saying about stones
Atheism and communism have little to do with each other except by accident of history.
I guess I disagree on how necessary a religious component in schools would be.
In all honesty, I don't bother to wonder whether it will be sufficient. There is no need to make that question. We must make the attempt nonetheless, and there is no better course of action in any case.
If it is not sufficient, it will lessen the damage as much as we could hope for.
"For long years, the Soviet system created by Vladimir Lenin succeeded in representing itself to many as a benefactor of humankind and the champion of social justice. In the light of historical events, such pretensions were grotesque. The documentation now available provides irrefutable evidence of crimes so enormous and follies so abysmal as to have no parallel in the six thousand years of recorded history. To a degree never before imagined, let alone attempted, the Leninist conspiracy against human nature also sought systematically to extinguish faith in God. Whatever view of the situation political theorists may currently hold, no one can be surprised that such deliberate violence to the roots of human motivation led inexorably to the economic and political ruin of those societies luckless enough to fall under Soviet sway. Its longer-term spiritual effect, tragically, was to pervert to the service of its own amoral agenda the legitimate yearnings for freedom and justice of subject peoples throughout the world."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Century of Light, Pages 43-65
Bahá'í Reference Library - Century of Light, Pages 43-65
I disagree. Consider Karl Marx famous quote "Religion is the opiate of the masses". The dismantling of religion was a central tenant of communist ideology.
It is essential in considering what is likely to be effective in addressing humanities difficulties, what has worked or failed in the past.
You may be interested in the post #134 on this theme.
And...? Atheism is hardly the opposite of religion.
Let's see nature is objective I am subjective to nature. Is that a philosophy?
Well atheism can say that but, I certainly know a lot of atheist types who would claim we live in a virtual reality. I can't distinguish between theism as its presented by many and that. We do infact live in a type of virtual reality it's the one we have created linguistically mathmatically culturally.
I say atheism is the innocent bystander of religion.
Itin regard to another comment about simuliarites between the two atheism religion it's the old tl yin to the yang! Many people actually won't get what you are alluding to james!!! You are looking at how people think and in the atheism vs theism thing it's all about what I am thinking it has zero to do with how I am thinking or even why. No its all what i am thinking and why. Btw I have a sport touring scooter done the Harley thing. I just used the analogy that has some parallels in the motorcycle community with a bit of humor. They both are riding a motorcycle so they share that obliviously but dang do atheists get their panties all bunched up. Not all but alot!!!