Historical Jesus

arthra · Feb 22, 2017

pcarl said:
Excellent point!

By all human standards Jesus was a failure. Executed as a criminal, denied by his closest disciple, deserted by the others as they scattered, abandon by his God. His movement dead. Not exactly the stuff of a folk hero, never mind a messiah.

I was going to suggest that if we take the Sermon on the Mount as a representation of His teachings Jesus had a unique strategy for dealing with the Romans occupation... Carrying burdens an extra mile... paying your taxes... turning the other cheek when slapped that was a far remove from the Zealot approach which led to the revolt and eventual destruction of Jerusalem and a later revolt by Bar Kokhba. Had the people followed His teachings the revolts would not have occurred and the Temple would remain for awhile anyway...

1robin · Feb 23, 2017

oldbadger said:
I notice that no NT scholars are in complete accord with each other. I've read some of their books, and....... blimey!.... the ideas!

We cannot debate every single position any new testament historian held about everything at any time. I gave your 5 of the most reliable historical claims in the bible. All NT historian's position do not stand or fall together. What you need to do is post evidence and argumentation refuting each of the 5 claims I made. They need to be so powerful and persuasive, that they can overturn 2000 years of NT historical scrutiny. So far you have not even attempted this.

Try writing on a mobile, and see how many typos you get!

I get too many on a proper keyboard. It would take me an hour to type posts on a phone.

Oh, please! Yeshua never claimed any such thing, at least, not in G-Mark the 1st gospel, before the additions and such. Please don't quote G-John, who couldn't even get the timeline correct. He didn't even know what happened in the last week!

I will quote the primary texts on Christ regardless of whether that is inconvenient to you or not.

Others were convinced that Jesus was God:
Paul: "Christ is the visible image of the invisible God."1
John: "He existed in the beginning with God."2
Peter: "you must worship Christ as Lord of your life."3

But what did Jesus say about himself?

Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of the statements he made.

Jesus Said He Was Equal to God. Quotes from Jesus...
Jesus Said He Existed Before Abraham
"Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."
The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"4

Jesus Said to See Him is the Same as Seeing God
Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."5

"No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!"
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied."
Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"6

Jesus Said He Could Forgive Sins
"...that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--he then said to the paralytic--"Rise, pick up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God..."7

He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."8

Jesus Said He Is the Judge and Can Grant Eternal Life
"For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father."9

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."10

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."11

"For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day."12

Jesus Said He Was the Same as God
"The Father and I are one."
Once again the people picked up stones to kill him.
Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?"
They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God."13
Did Jesus Ever Say He was God?

Find me another Human:

1. Who claimed to have existed before creation.
2. Claimed that everything was made for and through him.
3. Claimed to be co-occupant of the throne of God.
4. Claimed to be able to forgive sins in his own name.
5. Raised the dead.
6. Made prophecies that came true.
7. Who's life was the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies.
8. Claimed to and demonstrated his dominion over both demons and angels.
9. Has no known imperfection.
10. Who predicted his own death and resurrection, and both occurred.

I can list hundreds of these but must stop somewhere. Keep in mind these things are multiplicative probabilities not additive. Who ever you mention must have all of those attributes, as well as the ones I didn't list. This post is getting too long. I will respond to the rest in a little while.

oldbadger · Feb 23, 2017

1robin said:
We cannot debate every single position any new testament historian held about everything at any time. I gave your 5 of the most reliable historical claims in the bible. All NT historian's position do not stand or fall together. What you need to do is post evidence and argumentation refuting each of the 5 claims I made. They need to be so powerful and persuasive, that they can overturn 2000 years of NT historical scrutiny. So far you have not even attempted this.

I get too many on a proper keyboard. It would take me an hour to type posts on a phone.

I will quote the primary texts on Christ regardless of whether that is inconvenient to you or not.

Others were convinced that Jesus was God:
Paul: "Christ is the visible image of the invisible God."1
John: "He existed in the beginning with God."2
Peter: "you must worship Christ as Lord of your life."3

But what did Jesus say about himself?

Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of the statements he made.

Jesus Said He Was Equal to God. Quotes from Jesus...
Jesus Said He Existed Before Abraham
"Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."
The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"4

Jesus Said to See Him is the Same as Seeing God
Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."5

"No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!"
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied."
Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"6

Jesus Said He Could Forgive Sins
"...that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--he then said to the paralytic--"Rise, pick up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God..."7

He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."8

Jesus Said He Is the Judge and Can Grant Eternal Life
"For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father."9

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."10

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."11

"For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day."12

Jesus Said He Was the Same as God
"The Father and I are one."
Once again the people picked up stones to kill him.
Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?"
They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God."13
Did Jesus Ever Say He was God?

Find me another Human:

1. Who claimed to have existed before creation.
2. Claimed that everything was made for and through him.
3. Claimed to be co-occupant of the throne of God.
4. Claimed to be able to forgive sins in his own name.
5. Raised the dead.
6. Made prophecies that came true.
7. Who's life was the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies.
8. Claimed to and demonstrated his dominion over both demons and angels.
9. Has no known imperfection.
10. Who predicted his own death and resurrection, and both occurred.

I can list hundreds of these but must stop somewhere. Keep in mind these things are multiplicative probabilities not additive. Who ever you mention must have all of those attributes, as well as the ones I didn't list. This post is getting too long. I will respond to the rest in a little while.

So..... after all you do accept that there is no consensus of NT scholars to support anything that you say.
Well, that is something. At least you seem to have U turned on that.

So far my favourite scholarly book on Jesus is by Geza Vermes, who of course was a Christian priest and a document translator. But I think he left the priesthood, maybe as a result of his researches?

By the way, it is no good quoting John Nd Paul at me.... neither of them even knew Jesus.

1robin · Feb 23, 2017

oldbadger said:
His name was most likely Yeshua BarYosef, or close to that.
And I notice that Yeshua fits Eastern Aramaic, whereas Christ just does not.
All the manipulation in the World can't fit 'Jesus' or 'Christ' into Galilean vocabulary. Why not just go back to the roots.... as close to truth as possible?

Jesus had many titles and many names. Among those were Jesus "the" Christus. If you combine the Hebrew word ma siah (Messiah) and the Greek word Khriein (anoint), you get the Hellenized Koine Greek word Khristos, from that it became Christus in Latin, Crist in old English, and Christ in modern English. So there is nothing whatsoever referring to Yeshua as Christ. Unless you want to post in strictly Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek you shouldn't waste time circling the semantic drain.

Look, if you want to, need to, believe in and have Faith in that, no problem. But if you want to enter the subject matter of Historical Jesus then let's keep the facts firmly down to earth, eh?

I did, I gave you 5 historical claims about the historical Jesus. You didn't even attempt a counter argument for any of them. You basically responded by saying "nu-uh" to anything you didn't like. When you actually deal with the five historical events I gave then I will supply more.

I did not say Christ actually did any miracles. I kept it "firmly down to earth" and simply said that exorcism and miracle working was the type of ministry Jesus practiced. Even if every miracle he claimed to have done was fake, my statement would still be just as true.

Non-theists make the same mistakes all the time. I used to tell you guys to not respond with claims about whether Jesus actually did miracles or actually had the divine authority he claimed to have because I was not saying either. Regardless, your side of the isle would do it anyway so I gave it up as hopeless. Same thing with confusing epistemology with ontology. Anyway, on rides the mail.

Oh my Gawd! What evidence is that then?
Please do show it, and do stop telling us all that the consensus of scholars must be right because they are who they are....... let's see their consensus of evidence.
Geza Vermes rips G-John to shreds in 'The changing faces of Jesus'
Dominic Crosson has a Magic for meal traveller shuffling from village to village with a few hangers-on..... etc
and on.... and on.....some are really very weak ideas.
I've got a list of nearly 200 scholars and they just can't agree, so leave the ad-hominems out of it.

Jesus wasn't 'The Christ' in his last week! He was (to the authorities) just a ruffian who committed pillage and mayhem in the Temple courts and picketed the whole area with his supporters TWO DAYS RUNNING.!!! If that doesn't get a person executed then I don't know what would. The Temple takings in a Passover week probably exceeded $30,000,000 in todays' money and Yeshua seriously affected the takings!
You want proof of that? Do I need to teach you about that? Let me know and I'll teach you about it all, a layman.....

Your arrogance is approaching the level at which I can no longer justify discussing anything with you. Take a nap or something, then come back and actually make arguments instead of telling me how great the arguments are that you didn't make.

1. I believe your probably wrong about several of the details you mention, however nothing is affected if I simply accept them. So, to save time I will not attempt to over turn any of them.
2. However even if they are all true your conclusion (bolded above) does not follow from them.
3. What group A believes about entity B does not make any difference concerning the nature of B. You got your epistemology confused with ontology like I mentioned above.
4. None of what you mentioned is what the Pharisees and Sadducees officially charged Christ with. They didn't accuse him of robbing money from them or picketing anything with anyone.
5. They hated Christ because he was taking followers away from them, but doing so was not a crime, nor even if it was (like your accusations) it wasn't a capital crime. Rome wanted to get rid of Christ because he was causing division and unrest, the Hebrew priestly class wanted to get rid of him for the same reasons.
6. Since what he actually did was not a crime the Hebrew priests accused of exactly what you say he never did. They accused him of blasphemy (because he claimed to be of the same essence as God) but the Hebrews were not allowed to condemn anyone to death, so they took him to Pilate because the Romans could condemn people to death.

Arrogance is the fault that is the hardest to see in ourselves but the easiest to see in others. Calm down, stop telling how smart you think you are, and start posting well reasoned arguments.

Where have you seen Joseph of A's testimony?
Apart from Magdalene and Salome, who was there?
Who was there all through the following night and day?,

I didn't say anything about Joseph's writings. I said it was his tomb that Christ was buried in. Are you claiming the Christian's fabricated which tomb Christ was buried in? Do you have any actual reasons to doubt the testimony of the apostles? The Hebrew and Roman guards were there. I have quite a few eye witness claims to corroborate the empty tomb narrative (BTW did you know that the source material for Paul's passion narratives dates back to within years and possibly months of Christ's death, and Paul was the earliest NT writings not Mark, and other than the length of Mark's last chapter there is very little evidence of additions to his writing), do you have even one from a contemporary witness that says anything I claimed was untrue?

This is rubbish..... The Romans strung out crucifixions to last up to three days. Theyu didn't try to kill a person in a few hours.

It is amazing how a person claiming to be so well read they could "educate" me could pack that much wrong into two sentences.

1. The levitical traditions would not allow capital punishment during the feast of unleavened bread. This morphed into a rule that no one could be left hanging on a cross during the feast during the Roman occupation.
2. Apparently the Romans did not check with you because they specifically broke the legs of two of the criminals crucified at the same time as Christ and drove a spear into Christ's heart. You do not do either if your trying to keep people alive.
3.The Romans had at least a half dozen ways of crucifying people, they certainly did not have any specific length of time concerning crucifixion. It varied by era, region, and even according to centurions.
4. However lets pretend Jesus survived a beating meant to bring a person to death's door, he survived hanging on a cross for an afternoon, and even survive a spear to the heart. How on Earth did he get a ten ton rock out of it's cradle after 3 days without medical care, food, or water?

BTW if you actually want some scholarly information about crucifixions causing exactly what was described by the apostles (including death) then try some coroner's reports.
Autopsy of a crucifixion - Premier Christianity
A Physician's View of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ
Adriano Ricardo

Ad Hominem.
Many PHD in history or theology would giove very unsympathetic opinions to you.

So not only are the arguments you do not make brilliant, but the arguments others make but you fail to post are equally brilliant.

I am here, not to be agreed with, but to subject my arguments and conclusion to competent scrutiny. So far your not up to that task, it seems.

oldbadger · Feb 23, 2017

1robin said:
Jesus had many titles and many names.

No he did not. And he was not called Jesus either.

I did, I gave you 5 historical claims about the historical Jesus.

Claims............ your claims are wrong. What else to say?

I did not say Christ actually did any miracles.

I don't know about 'Christ', but Yeshua BarYosef did things that were clearly miraculous to those who saw them, and spoke of them.

Non-theists make the same mistakes all the time. I used to tell you guys to not respond with claims about whether Jesus actually did miracles or actually had the divine authority he claimed to have because I was not saying either.

I reckon that the vast majority of reports in G-Mark do have basis of fact, actually.
Don't apply your prejudices to me......

Your arrogance is approaching the level at which I can no longer justify discussing anything with you.

Well, you know, you might just think that a strong debater is arrogant, and a weak debater humble. But, sure, if you can't handle my points, maybe it's best to just ignore me?

Arrogance is the fault that is the hardest to see in ourselves but the easiest to see in others. Calm down, stop telling how smart you think you are, and start posting well reasoned arguments.

Gracious me....

. I do think that you want me to be..... like you!

I have quite a few eye witness claims to corroborate the empty tomb narrative

Go on then..... let's see them.

(BTW did you know that the source material for Paul's passion narratives dates back to within years and possibly months of Christ's death, and Paul was the earliest NT writings not Mark,

Paul was not there, did not write any detail about Jesus or his ministry...... apart from death etc....

It is amazing how a person claiming to be so well read they could "educate" me could pack that much wrong into two sentences.

When you get cornered you seem to get a bit personal, a bit insulting........ I can't be doing that badly!

The levitical traditions would not allow capital punishment during the feast of unleavened bread.

Indeed, which is why the guards broke the other convicts' legs for a speedy death, now why didn't they just do that to Jesus? Was the spear thrust a feint for any distant onlookers? I'm not sure that Jesus even died on that cross, which would then fit with all that happened after...?

Oh dear, the rest of your post trails on..... and on...... you do tend to rant a bit, you know.

Dawnofhope · Feb 24, 2017

1robin said:
However I will give you a few of the bible's most reliable claims. According to a consensus of NT historians (regardless of their faith) the following are historically reliable.

A. Christ appeared on the historical scene with an unprecedented sense of divine authority.
B. Christ practiced a ministry of miracle working and exorcism.
C. That he died on a cross, put there by the Romans, but at the request of the Hebrew priestly class.
D. His tomb was found empty.
E. Even his enemies claimed to have spoken with him, post mortem.

Now if those were only the facts in the bible that were reliable you would still have everything necessary to justify Christian faith, however as to reliable historical claims the bible makes there are thousands considered as reliable as history can make them. Regardless, those 5 are a good place to start.

Interesting post. I'm in the process of learning more about who Jesus was and the extent of the actual evidence. The problem with 'scholars' is that the Jews and Muslims all have their 'scholars' that can argue with equal authority as you have done. If these are the claims and they are so clear then we should be able to consider the evidence including biblical and historical, that would verify all this.

I'm particularly interested in points D and E that suggest a 'resurrection'. In fact I even started a thread a week ago to consider this issue. Although I have heard Christians claim there is overwhelming evidence for a resurrection I'm yet to be convinced. If you wouldn't mind, please provide me in clear language what you consider that evidence to be. I'm happy for you to refer to any text of the bible as well as providing reasoned arguments and references to relevant historic artefacts. Please don't refer to all these supposedly united scholars. Just argue the point in your own words as I'm certain you are capable of doing.

Thank you for considering my request.

1robin · Feb 24, 2017

oldbadger said:
No he did not. And he was not called Jesus either.

I am not being sarcastic, just stating facts. I have seen very few posters who could pack so much wrong into so few statements.

1. Almighty One – “…who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 1:8
2. Alpha and Omega – “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” Rev. 22:13
3. Advocate – “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.” 1 John 2:1
4. Author and Perfecter of Our Faith – “Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Heb. 12:2
5. Authority – “Jesus said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Matt. 28:18
6. Bread of Life – “Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.’” John 6:35
7. Beloved Son of God – “And behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matt. 3:17
8. Bridegroom – “And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.” Matt. 9:15
9. Chief Cornerstone – “The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner stone.” Ps. 118:22
10. Deliverer – “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thess.1:10
11. Faithful and True – “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.” Rev.19:11
12. Good Shepherd - “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” John 10:11
13. Great High Priest – “Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.” Heb. 4:14
14. Head of the Church – “And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church.” Eph. 1:22
15. Holy Servant – “…and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." Acts 4:29-30
16. I Am – “Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58
17. Immanuel – “…She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel, which means 'God with us.’” Is. 7:14
18. Indescribable Gift – “Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift.” 2 Cor. 9:15
19. Judge – “…he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.” Acts 10:42
20. King of Kings – “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.” Rev. 17:14
21. Lamb of God – “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” John 1:29
22. Light of the World – "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12
23. Lion of the Tribe of Judah – “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” Rev. 5:5
24. Lord of All – “For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Phil. 2:9-11
25. Mediator – “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” 1 Tim. 2:5
26. Messiah – “We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ).” John 1:41
27. Mighty One – “Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” Is. 60:16
28. One Who Sets Free – “So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:36
29. Our Hope – “…Christ Jesus our hope.” 1 Tim. 1:1
30. Peace – “For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,” Eph. 2:14
31. Prophet – “And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” Mark 6:4
32. Redeemer – “And as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth.” Job 19:25
33. Risen Lord – “…that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” 1 Cor. 15:3-4
34. Rock – “For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.” 1 Cor. 10:4
35. Sacrifice for Our Sins – “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” 1 John 4:10
36. Savior – “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” Luke 2:11
37. Son of Man – “For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Luke 19:10
38. Son of the Most High – “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.” Luke 1:32
39. Supreme Creator Over All – “By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…” 1 Cor. 1:16-17
40. Resurrection and the Life – “Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die.” John 11:25
41. The Door – “I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.” John 10:9
42. The Way – “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
43. The Word – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
44. True Vine - "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1
45. Truth – “And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32
46. Victorious One – “To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Rev. 3:21
47. – 50. Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace – “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is. 9:6
50 Names and Titles of Jesus: Who the Bible Says Christ Is

Just using 2 or 3 of those titles completely refutes your own entire position.

Continued below:

1robin · Feb 24, 2017

Claims............ your claims are wrong. What else to say?

A hint of an argument is what you should have said instead or basically responding with "nu-uh". I am quickly learning that I am I a debate with a person who does not care about evidence, argumentation, or my counter arguments to your own arbitrary preferences.

I don't know about 'Christ', but Yeshua BarYosef did things that were clearly miraculous to those who saw them, and spoke of them.

Since Christ is one of the titles given to Yeshua then what holds true for one holds true for the other. Of course I believe he did miracles, but my argument was still true whether he actually did miracles or only claimed to.

I reckon that the vast majority of reports in G-Mark do have basis of fact, actually.
Don't apply your prejudices to me......

I made no claim to any actual miracle occurring or not, just that that was the type of ministry he carried out. You responded that the miracles I did not mention were not miracles but were merely amazing acts. So you did exactly what I said you did.

Well, you know, you might just think that a strong debater is arrogant, and a weak debater humble. But, sure, if you can't handle my points, maybe it's best to just ignore me?

It is usually the least knowledgeable debaters that are the most arrogant. I assess you as a weak debater but an arrogant one. However I do not ignore people for simply being incompetent, I only do so if they are being malicious. A weak debater I give several warning that unless they pick up their game I can't justify endlessly respond to them, and then eventually I end the discussion. That is what I am in the process of doing with you, so please pick up your argumentation. It is certainly not that you making points I have to work hard to counter, those are the arguments I like. My problem with you is that you pack so many mistakes in so little space it takes a long time to illustrate that many mistakes.

Gracious me.... . I do think that you want me to be..... like you!

I do not want you to agree with me, I am here to be challenged. However I would like you to be like me as it pertains to making sound evidence based arguments.

Go on then..... let's see them.

First it was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "the others with them". Then it was Peter and another apostle (probably John). Do you realize all people had to do at the time was to determine Jesus was dead (the Romans were experts at doing so), then later determine that Jesus was alive (which anyone could assess). The rest is merely commentary.

Paul was not there, did not write any detail about Jesus or his ministry...... apart from death etc....

Paul wrote about his experience with Christ on the road to Damascus, however I was not making any claims about what Paul wrote. You said that Mark was the oldest NT writings, but it was actually Paul. Paul also used what was called a passion narrative to record what occurred to Christ and his crucifixion, which was based on even earlier texts. You do realize that the bible said the holy spirit was sent to the apostles specifically to remind them of the events concerning Christ. They do not have to eyewitnesses, yet they all experienced certain events including Christ.

When you get cornered you seem to get a bit personal, a bit insulting........ I can't be doing that badly!

I am not cornered, I am bored to death. I specifically said I was not being sarcastic, but just stating facts when I say you are arrogant.

Indeed, which is why the guards broke the other convicts' legs for a speedy death, now why didn't they just do that to Jesus? Was the spear thrust a feint for any distant onlookers? I'm not sure that Jesus even died on that cross, which would then fit with all that happened after...?

So now your admitting your previous argument was dead on arrival, so you just shift the goal posts to a different arbitrary position. The two criminals were known to still be alive in the evening, while Christ was thought to already be dead. Since the feast of unleavened bread began at sun down they had to kill the other two, but merely make sure Christ was dead. I already told you that even the absurd assumption that Christ did not die on the cross (when every coroner report I linked to, which apparently you didn't bother to look up, concluded the exact opposite) you need to explain how he survived in the tomb for 3 days without medical attention, food, or water, then moved a ten ton stone out of it's cradle, then sneaked past all the guards, then show up walking and talking for miles without the hint of physical impairment. Good luck.

Oh dear, the rest of your post trails on..... and on...... you do tend to rant a bit, you know.

This is your last chance. Post challenging evidence based arguments and drop the personal commentary or I will be forced to end our discussion. I just do not have time to keep correcting you concerning every rabbit hole you fall into.

1robin · Feb 24, 2017

adrian009 said:
Interesting post. I'm in the process of learning more about who Jesus was and the extent of the actual evidence. The problem with 'scholars' is that the Jews and Muslims all have their 'scholars' that can argue with equal authority as you have done. If these are the claims and they are so clear then we should be able to consider the evidence including biblical and historical, that would verify all this.

Hello Adrian, it would be an unjustifiable conclusion to lump all historical claims concerning the thousands of religions that have existed in the past, declare them all equal, then suggest they all stand or fall together. I will give you an example, the bible contains the words of eye witnesses and contemporaries of Christ to his crucifixion and resurrection (even contemporary enemies of Christ). They all testify to the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ. A tyrannical, butcher, thief, pedophile comes along over 400 years later and basically says "nu-uh" concerning Christ's crucifixion. Those two historical claims are not even on the same playing field, much less do they both stand or fall together. Those best trained with access to more of the evidence concerning biblical claims are NT historians and experts on testimony and evidence. I cited the NT scholars, and can site to experts on testimony and evidence if you wish. Regardless those claims are about as valid as possible. If you merely want additional claims, or if the few claims I have made did not persuade you I have a mountain of claims from about any category you can think of. I will explain more at the end of this post.

I'm particularly interested in points D and E that suggest a 'resurrection'. In fact I even started a thread a week ago to consider this issue. Although I have heard Christians claim there is overwhelming evidence for a resurrection I'm yet to be convinced. If you wouldn't mind, please provide me in clear language what you consider that evidence to be. I'm happy for you to refer to any text of the bible as well as providing reasoned arguments and references to relevant historic artefacts. Please don't refer to all these supposedly united scholars. Just argue the point in your own words as I'm certain you are capable of doing.

Thank you for considering my request.

I am more than happy to do so. You seem sincere and I will spend as much time with you as you require as long as you remain sincere. However I am very busy at the moment so let me point out a few things needed before a meaningful debate can occur.

1. I hold the faith position. The burden of a faith position is merely that no defeater exists for what I have faith in. However that is not the level I debate to. I attempt to show 3 types of things. A. That my conclusion is the best conclusion for the evidence. B. That all counter conclusion are not the best conclusion from the evidence. C. Biblical consistency, explanatory scope, and explanatory power is more than sufficient to justify faith.
2. Outside of a handful of propositions like "we think and therefor we exist, and the law of non-contradiction" nothing can be known to a certainty.
3. That no historical claim can be proven to be a fact.
4. All historical claims have a level of uncertainty, yet each has a different level of reliability or probability.

I can and will respond with exactly what you request very soon, but for the moment let me give you the conclusions in the context of your questions from a much greater scholar than I. He is one (if not the) of the greatest experts on testimony and evidence in the history of mankind.
Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf

Please give it a read, it is only a few pages long but the information it contains can't be over estimated. I will respond personally to the questions in your second paragraph soon.

oldbadger · Feb 24, 2017

1robin said:
A hint of an argument is what you should have said instead or basically responding with "nu-uh". I am quickly learning that I am I a debate with a person who does not care about evidence, argumentation, or my counter arguments to your own arbitrary preferences.

Since Christ is one of the titles given to Yeshua then what holds true for one holds true for the other. Of course I believe he did miracles, but my argument was still true whether he actually did miracles or only claimed to.

I made no claim to any actual miracle occurring or not, just that that was the type of ministry he carried out. You responded that the miracles I did not mention were not miracles but were merely amazing acts. So you did exactly what I said you did.

It is usually the least knowledgeable debaters that are the most arrogant. I assess you as a weak debater but an arrogant one. However I do not ignore people for simply being incompetent, I only do so if they are being malicious. A weak debater I give several warning that unless they pick up their game I can't justify endlessly respond to them, and then eventually I end the discussion. That is what I am in the process of doing with you, so please pick up your argumentation. It is certainly not that you making points I have to work hard to counter, those are the arguments I like. My problem with you is that you pack so many mistakes in so little space it takes a long time to illustrate that many mistakes.

I do not want you to agree with me, I am here to be challenged. However I would like you to be like me as it pertains to making sound evidence based arguments.

First it was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "the others with them". Then it was Peter and another apostle (probably John). Do you realize all people had to do at the time was to determine Jesus was dead (the Romans were experts at doing so), then later determine that Jesus was alive (which anyone could assess). The rest is merely commentary.

Paul wrote about his experience with Christ on the road to Damascus, however I was not making any claims about what Paul wrote. You said that Mark was the oldest NT writings, but it was actually Paul. Paul also used what was called a passion narrative to record what occurred to Christ and his crucifixion, which was based on even earlier texts. You do realize that the bible said the holy spirit was sent to the apostles specifically to remind them of the events concerning Christ. They do not have to eyewitnesses, yet they all experienced certain events including Christ.

I am not cornered, I am bored to death. I specifically said I was not being sarcastic, but just stating facts when I say you are arrogant.

So now your admitting your previous argument was dead on arrival, so you just shift the goal posts to a different arbitrary position. The two criminals were known to still be alive in the evening, while Christ was thought to already be dead. Since the feast of unleavened bread began at sun down they had to kill the other two, but merely make sure Christ was dead. I already told you that even the absurd assumption that Christ did not die on the cross (when every coroner report I linked to, which apparently you didn't bother to look up, concluded the exact opposite) you need to explain how he survived in the tomb for 3 days without medical attention, food, or water, then moved a ten ton stone out of it's cradle, then sneaked past all the guards, then show up walking and talking for miles without the hint of physical impairment. Good luck.

This is your last chance. Post challenging evidence based arguments and drop the personal commentary or I will be forced to end our discussion. I just do not have time to keep correcting you concerning every rabbit hole you fall into.

To the above post and the one before, I will not answer. I will leave readers to decide for themselves..........

1robin · Feb 24, 2017

oldbadger said:
To the above post and the one before, I will not answer. I will leave readers to decide for themselves..........

Well in 13000 posts that was a first.

Repox · Feb 24, 2017

adrian009 said:
Interesting post. I'm in the process of learning more about who Jesus was and the extent of the actual evidence. The problem with 'scholars' is that the Jews and Muslims all have their 'scholars' that can argue with equal authority as you have done. If these are the claims and they are so clear then we should be able to consider the evidence including biblical and historical, that would verify all this.

I'm particularly interested in points D and E that suggest a 'resurrection'. In fact I even started a thread a week ago to consider this issue. Although I have heard Christians claim there is overwhelming evidence for a resurrection I'm yet to be convinced. If you wouldn't mind, please provide me in clear language what you consider that evidence to be. I'm happy for you to refer to any text of the bible as well as providing reasoned arguments and references to relevant historic artefacts. Please don't refer to all these supposedly united scholars. Just argue the point in your own words as I'm certain you are capable of doing.

Thank you for considering my request.

I appreciate your sincere desire to learn more about Jesus. I have some information which may be of interest. It is not traditional, just different. I have had dreams about the Bible. According to what I know, Jesus was God, not the son of God. God is a duality which may partly explain stories about father and the son of God. Jesus was beaten to death by a Roman soldier, and he was not crucified. Rev. 11 may be the best story about Jesus (God). The two witnesses represent the duality of God. The "beast came from the abyss (universe)" and took possession of the Roman soldier who beat Jesus. (Rev. 11:7). I don't believe Jesus was in a tomb, he lay on the ground for 31/2 days after a Roman soldier beat him to death. Jesus (God) then returned to heaven.

Dawnofhope · Feb 24, 2017

1robin said:
Hello Adrian, it would be an unjustifiable conclusion to lump all historical claims concerning the thousands of religions that have existed in the past, declare them all equal, then suggest they all stand or fall together. I will give you an example, the bible contains the words of eye witnesses and contemporaries of Christ to his crucifixion and resurrection (even contemporary enemies of Christ). They all testify to the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ. A tyrannical, butcher, thief, pedophile comes along over 400 years later and basically says "nu-uh" concerning Christ's crucifixion. Those two historical claims are not even on the same playing field, much less do they both stand or fall together. Those best trained with access to more of the evidence concerning biblical claims are NT historians and experts on testimony and evidence. I cited the NT scholars, and can site to experts on testimony and evidence if you wish. Regardless those claims are about as valid as possible. If you merely want additional claims, or if the few claims I have made did not persuade you I have a mountain of claims from about any category you can think of. I will explain more at the end of this post.

I am more than happy to do so. You seem sincere and I will spend as much time with you as you require as long as you remain sincere. However I am very busy at the moment so let me point out a few things needed before a meaningful debate can occur.

1. I hold the faith position. The burden of a faith position is merely that no defeater exists for what I have faith in. However that is not the level I debate to. I attempt to show 3 types of things. A. That my conclusion is the best conclusion for the evidence. B. That all counter conclusion are not the best conclusion from the evidence. C. Biblical consistency, explanatory scope, and explanatory power is more than sufficient to justify faith.
2. Outside of a handful of propositions like "we think and therefor we exist, and the law of non-contradiction" nothing can be known to a certainty.
3. That no historical claim can be proven to be a fact.
4. All historical claims have a level of uncertainty, yet each has a different level of reliability or probability.

I can and will respond with exactly what you request very soon, but for the moment let me give you the conclusions in the context of your questions from a much greater scholar than I. He is one (if not the) of the greatest experts on testimony and evidence in the history of mankind.
Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf

Please give it a read, it is only a few pages long but the information it contains can't be over estimated. I will respond personally to the questions in your second paragraph soon.

Thanks for that Robyn. I'll provide a more detailed response some stage soon. Its probably important to indicate that I have been a Baha'i for over 25 years and as such would share many beliefs with the Christians but there are some important differences. I grew up a Christian but I became a Baha'i in my mid 20s. I am a medical doctor and for the last 5 years have been doing volunteer work at a Christian Medical Centre. I currently facilitate a Bible study with some of my Christian colleagues so have a reasonable degree of familiarity with the bible. Of the Holy Bible Abdu'l-Baha has said:

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 17-18

I have a family with 2 teenage sons so like you I am very busy.

Dawnofhope · Feb 24, 2017

Repox said:
I appreciate your sincere desire to learn more about Jesus. I have some information which may be of interest. It is not traditional, just different.

Thanks for your response Repox. Please see my response to Robyn above. Clearly you have a very different perspective from mainstream Christianity. I look forward to hearing about the evidence that would support your beliefs.

Repox · Feb 24, 2017

adrian009 said:
Thanks for your response Repox. Please see my response to Robyn above. Clearly you have a very different perspective from mainstream Christianity. I look forward to hearing about the evidence that would support your beliefs.

I am a scholar, so I do research. I have investigated the NT gospels. I have not found historical documentation for a single gospel story. I have found Jesus sayings in prior gospels (Gospel Q, and The Gospel of Thomas). Mostly, the evidence suggests Jesus was a wise man or sage, not the son of God. Apparently, son of God stories became part of the Jesus narrative 40 to 50 years after the death of Jesus. According to my dreams, Jesus was God. There is no son of God.

There is circumstantial evidence for the Roman Empire's culpability. The Roman Emperor of the time, Tiberius, had declared himself to be a god. It would follow that he would order the killing of any man who threatened his divinity.

oldbadger · Feb 25, 2017

1robin said:
Well in 13000 posts that was a first.

You can't even get that right....
It is you who has written nearly 13000....
I have written about 8500,,,, :shrug:

oldbadger · Feb 25, 2017

Repox said:
I am a scholar, so I do research. I have investigated the NT gospels. I have not found historical documentation for a single gospel story.

Hi.....
G-Mark is an historical document, although somewhat 'messed' with, as was Josephus's brief mention.

I have found Jesus sayings in prior gospels (Gospel Q, and The Gospel of Thomas).

...you have a copy of Q? Or did you find evidence of Q... in the gospels?

Mostly, the evidence suggests Jesus was a wise man or sage, not the son of God. Apparently, son of God stories became part of the Jesus narrative 40 to 50 years after the death of Jesus.

No. Paul was writing about 'The Son Of God' about 15 years after Jesus's death.

According to my dreams, Jesus was God. There is no son of God.

Dreams are fine. But dreams do not count, historically.

There is circumstantial evidence for the Roman Empire's culpability. The Roman Emperor of the time, Tiberius, had declared himself to be a god. It would follow that he would order the killing of any man who threatened his divinity.

The Prefect Pilate was under the direct authority and supervision of the Syrian Legate, who took his orders from Tiberius. Pilate did not want to execute Jesus.

Repox · Feb 25, 2017

oldbadger said:
Hi.....
G-Mark is an historical document, although somewhat 'messed' with, as was Josephus's brief mention.
I know there were NT gospels, I just doubt the romantic and miraculous stories, there is no evidence of them. I find Jesus sayings to have support in prior gospels.

...you have a copy of Q? Or did you find evidence of Q... in the gospels?.

No. Paul was writing about 'The Son Of God' about 15 years after Jesus's death.
Yes, I understand Paul preceded the four NT gospels.

Dreams are fine. But dreams do not count, historically.

The Prefect Pilate was under the direct authority and supervision of the Syrian Legate, who took his orders from Tiberius. Pilate did not want to execute Jesus.

You find Q by looking for commonality of Jesus sayings in Mark, Matthew and Luke. An excellent reference is The Lost Gospel Q by Burton L. Mack.

I don't put much credibility to NT gospel author stories. According to Roman history, Tiberius considered himself to be a god. It is good circumstantial evidence for Roman soldiers murdering Jesus.

I have found interesting historical information by following leads from my dreams. They have opened new areas for research. They have not been false leads. The most profound idea has been about paradise during the dinosaur era. What happened to the dinosaurs and other creatures fits with what would happened if Satan disrupted and it returned back to nature. It is interesting, OT prophets have not been vilified because of revelations. The big problem is my dreams don't conform to religious ideology, which is encouraging. Most religions rely on clerics as references, not actual events.

oldbadger · Feb 25, 2017

Repox said:
You find Q by looking for commonality of Jesus sayings in Mark, Matthew and Luke. An excellent reference is The Lost Gospel Q by Burton L. Mack.

Yes. I only asked the question because your post read as if an original had been found.

I don't put much credibility to NT gospel author stories. According to Roman history, Tiberius considered himself to be a god. It is good circumstantial evidence for Roman soldiers murdering Jesus.

I think that Jesus was far beneath Tiberius's radar.
It was only when Christianity surfaced that Rome became aware. Christianity did not exist in the lifetime of Yeshua BarYosef, imo.

I have found interesting historical information by following leads from my dreams. They have opened new areas for research. They have not been false leads. The most profound idea has been about paradise during the dinosaur era. What happened to the dinosaurs and other creatures fits with what would happened if Satan disrupted and it returned back to nature. It is interesting, OT prophets have not been vilified because of revelations. The big problem is my dreams don't conform to religious ideology, which is encouraging. Most religions rely on clerics as references, not actual events.

Well, I don't find this so strange as some might.
I don't receive messages or anything like that, but I go to sleep thinking about various ideas connected to Historical Jesus and sometimes, just sometimes, I awake with exciting 'things' to go and research further.
This works with other problems and interests as well, so I'm not claiming any special powers!

Repox · Feb 25, 2017

oldbadger said:
Yes. I only asked the question because your post read as if an original had been found.

I think that Jesus was far beneath Tiberius's radar.
It was only when Christianity surfaced that Rome became aware. Christianity did not exist in the lifetime of Yeshua BarYosef, imo.

Well, I don't find this so strange as some might.
I don't receive messages or anything like that, but I go to sleep thinking about various ideas connected to Historical Jesus and sometimes, just sometimes, I awake with exciting 'things' to go and research further.
This works with other problems and interests as well, so I'm not claiming any special powers!

I don't have special powers, I've had special dreams and some visions. You may be right about Tiberius's concern for Jesus or a man claiming divinity. I made an assumption because of my dream about a Roman soldier beating Jesus. If you research the crucifixion you don't find historical confirmation for it. I had a vision about two pearls of equal size next to one another. It told me about God's duality. Then, I had a dream about two Gods in a sphere in heaven. They were reacting to angels surrounding the sphere. The two Gods captivated all the angels. One God would react to some communication with an angel and the other would pop into view and react to the exchange. I assume when God was in the world as Jesus both entities would function in one body to interact with others. I find the most amount of information about Jesus by reading "Jesus sayings" in the NT and prior gospels. I have come to doubt the dramatic and miraculous NT stories about Jesus. I think references to what Jesus said about the "Kingdom of Heaven" are most revealing for his identity.

Good luck in your research endeavors.

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