psychoslice
Veteran Member
Neither.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
arthra
Baha'i
The historicity of Jesus has been a question posed for quite a while. Would you suggest that Apollonius of Tyana was a real person? WE learn about Apollonius from one main source Philostratus. Apollonius was supposed to have lived within a similar time frame as Jesus.
There are some interesting fragments that are extra Biblical... "Christ the Magician".
See:
Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'
Then there's an ancient appellation :
The name used by Tertullus survives into Rabbinic and modern Hebrew as notzrim (נוצרים) a standard Hebrew term for "Christian", and also into the Quran and modern Arabic as nasara (plural of nasrani "Christians").
Nazarene (sect) - Wikipedia
Since the references to Jesus are vatried in Coptic, Koine Greek, etc. I would lean toward suggesting Jesus has more historicity say than Apollonius as there is only one source for him while there are many more sources relating to Jesus and Jesus after all was not a Governor or a High Priest of the time but a wandering Preacher Who wrote nothing except what He inscribed on the sand...that we know of.
There are some interesting fragments that are extra Biblical... "Christ the Magician".
See:
Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'
Then there's an ancient appellation :
The name used by Tertullus survives into Rabbinic and modern Hebrew as notzrim (נוצרים) a standard Hebrew term for "Christian", and also into the Quran and modern Arabic as nasara (plural of nasrani "Christians").
Nazarene (sect) - Wikipedia
Since the references to Jesus are vatried in Coptic, Koine Greek, etc. I would lean toward suggesting Jesus has more historicity say than Apollonius as there is only one source for him while there are many more sources relating to Jesus and Jesus after all was not a Governor or a High Priest of the time but a wandering Preacher Who wrote nothing except what He inscribed on the sand...that we know of.
Last edited:
stevevw
Member
I believe that Jesus rose in both the spirit and physically. If you notice that when Simon Peter went into the empty tomb of Jesus he saw the cloth that covered Jesus still in place so this indicates that Jesus rose in spirit through the cloth. Yet the stone that blocked the tomb was rolled away which points to Jesus being a physical as well. When he appeared to the disciples they were in a locked room and Jesus suddenly appears and stands in the midst of them. Then he says to Thomas who is doubting that Jesus had risen to put his finger in the hole of his wound. He also states he is hungry and asks for something to eat which indicates he is a physical entity. The bible states that our physical bodies will also rise just as Jesus did. So somehow Jesus was a spirit in that he could suddenly appear and disappear out of nowhere and move through objects in our world, yet was also became a physical being that could be touched and needed to eat.
Bible Gateway passage: John 20 - New International Version
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 24 - New International Version
Hi Psychoslice. You're right that what we do is most important. Too many people are caught up in idol worship instead of practicing their Faith. We have billions of 'religious' people yet the world is full of drugs, vices, violence and corruption.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I think we need to find what is within, not that which is outside, heaven after all is only found within, find that and our life will change for the better of ourselves and those around us.
godnotgod
Thou art That
The real core Christian doctrine is The Crucifixion, by which Jesus shed his blood for the redemption of mankind's sin, and which provided the re-opening of the Gates of Heaven which Adam and Eve had closed by their sin of disobedience. But many man-gods had come and claimed to be the Messiah, and all had died and none resurrected. So how do we know that Jesus was who he said he was, and that his sacrifice on the cross really did what he claimed it would do, as foretold in the Last Supper? It is The Resurrection that then become the centerpiece of Christian belief, as it 'proves' that Jesus is who he claimed: God himself in the flesh.
There are many problems with the doctrine of The Resurrection, but the clincher for me is the account by St. Paul, in which he claims that there were 500 eyewitnesses to the event, some of whom were still living when Paul wrote those words. Now, if you were Paul, and you knew there were living eyewitnesses, you would regard these people as Gold from Heaven. You would immediately seek them out to interview them before they pass on for a first hand account of what they had witnessed. But Paul just brushed past them, never giving them a second thought.
Secondly, there is an uncanny resemblance of the '500 eyewitnesses' scenario found in Buddhism:
"Buddhist tradition states that shortly after the passing away of the Buddha five hundred of his Arhats and disciples met in council at Rajagaha for the purpose of recalling to mind the truths they had heard directly from their hero during the forty-five years of his teachings.
The Coptic biblical text actually identifies the 500 as 'Indian Brahmans'!
In short, we find opportunity, motive, method, location and scriptural evidence, for a profound and detailed Buddhist influence in Christianity's origins. That it was so cannot be doubted"
Buddhist Influence in Christian Origins
There are other signs that this story is a concoction, made to fit the story of the very real crucified Yeshua in order to transform it into a miracle that never occurred. Instead, there are indications that Jesus survived The Crucifixion, and was spirited away to the Buddhist monastery at Hemis in the Himalayas, where he was healed and lived out the rest of his days, and where the monks knew him as 'our beloved St. Issa' who had lived and taught with them during Jesus's mysterious 18 missing years.
"The Resurrection" and "The Ascension" are just what The Crucifixion needed to validate it as 'authentic'. Unfortunately, it's myth-like qualities stick out awkwardly here and there, rendering the story a fantasy, though a cleverly fabricated one. Christianity would actually be much better off without these two, and instead present Yeshua as a real-life flesh and blood man who was spiritually enlightened, yet who died just as any man would die.
It happens that there exists a tomb in Srinigar, Kashimir called 'The Tomb of Jesus' (Roza Bal)
with an inscription reading 'Yuz Asaf' as the person entombed there, and which means “Leader of the Healed”/"Son of Joseph". The head of the body faces West, typical of a Jewish burial, and not that of an Easterner, who are buried with the head facing East. At the foot of the tomb is an artist's casting of two footprints, each having a single would, typical of a Roman crucifixion, in which a single spike was driven through both feet, one laid over the other.
Last edited:
Hit bottom in life, and sometimes even a VOICE mistaken for God's manifests and life decisions change once the toes get singed in the fires of Hell. Figuratively.
This thread is about one of those areas were science and religion intersect and a belief in a physically resurrected Jesus has become untenable.
Untenable to whom, I have to ask?
We believe that Christ was resurrected as a spirit being. He materialized fleshly bodies after his resurrection because the Jews were forbidden to have anything to do with spirits. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Angels had on several occasions materialized human form to convey messages to God's earthly servants. As a spirit being, Jesus had the same ability. The NT says that he "appeared" to his disciples during his 40 days on earth after his resurrection, but there is nothing to indicate that he stayed with them as he had done for the previous three and a half years. It also explains why his disciples did not always recognize him and why, on only one occasion, his wounds were visible.
I understand the Jehovah witnesses even have their own bible! Is that correct?
No, we have our own translation, which is a whole different thing. If you are familiar with the languages of the Bible, you will know why. Mormons have their own "scripture" and so do Baha'i's and many others. There is only one Bible though, not many holy books with conflicting ideas and teachings all coming from the one source.
'The New World Translation is unique in one thing – it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group's doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs.'
On the contrary, JW's thoroughly scrutinized every doctrine of the churches to see if it complied with scripture and found that mistranslation had already been around for a very long time, justifying introduced doctrines that had been adopted from paganism in the early centuries. By comparing all of their teachings with the true meaning of the original language texts, we saw where there was a need to put the correct meaning back. We altered nothing from the original texts.....Christendom did. We also replaced God's name back into the text where it had been removed almost 7,000 times.
Read it again. This is John the Baptist filling the same role as Elijah, preparing the Jews to receive the one who was to come after him. Those who accepted Jesus as Messiah saw things as they really were, smoothing out the way so that every obstacle put in their path was removed. When the judgment comes, there will be a terrible awakening on the part of those who refused to heed Jesus' warning about the coming "end" of this entire system of things. "Just like the days of Noah" he said......how many people were saved through that catastrophe? (Matthew 24:37-39) How many "saw" with their own eyes, the salvation that God had provided for Noah and his family? All flesh will again "see the salvation of God"...only not in the way most people think.
"The rest of Christians"...? Is that the same as "the rest of the Jews" who rejected Jesus? Since when have God's people ever been in a majority?
Matthew 7:13-14)
"Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."
The majority are not on the right road according to Jesus. So we are not to find the truth in popular opinion.
Do you see no justification for that? Or is it that you are too close to the problem? The "institutions that surround our health system" are among the most corrupt on earth, driven more by greed for wealth and power than a real desire to make people well. How are doctors not aware of this? Is the propaganda that good? Can you tell me why all the millions of dollars spent for "research" every year never yields a cure for anything?
So do we, now that things have changed regarding the treatment of victims by the legal system.
So you think the Jews who rejected Jesus as Messiah are the best ones to tell us what the ancients believed about death and resurrection? Jesus rejected them...remember? These are the ones to whom he said...“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in" (Matthew 23:13)
So, would you have been among the crowd crying out for Jesus' execution? He didn't have a good word to say about that religious institution.....they were the ones who gave Jesus' disciples the most grief.
James wrote of the apostle Peter...."Symʹe·on [Peter] has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name." (Acts 15:14)
"The Israel of God" was no longer fleshly Israel. (Galatians 6:16) God's 'nation' were made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians.
And you wonder why we needed a better translation? "Holy Ghost"? "Eternal damnation"? Seriously?Read Hebrews 10:26.
Yes, the Romans didn't know that they were impaling the son of God.....they were acting in ignorance.....but no such plea was uttered on behalf of the Jews, who knew exactly what they were doing. There was no forgiveness possible for what those religious leaders did or what motivated them to do it. Only a remnant were prophesied to be saved out of that nation and considering their history, we can see why. (Romans 9:27-28; Romans 11:4-5)
It doesn't take much to "excel" those who call themselves "Christians"......all have blood on their hands. (Isaiah 1:15)
Jesus was not resurrected in a physical body. Therefore his "journey" was not difficult at all. The transition between realms was like stepping through a gateway. Physical bodies cannot enter. Only God can make the transformation from a human to a spirit.....but a spirit can materialize human form at will apparently. (Genesis 6:1-2)
As for visions of heaven......
Revelation 21:9-27
1 Peter 1:3-4:
"Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you."
I don't believe that "heaven" should be confused with "paradise" however, because Adam and Eve were not created to live in heaven, but to live forever in paradise conditions on earth. The first three chapters of Genesis were about creation and how things went astray. The rest of the Bible is an explanation of what God did to restore his original purpose. Revelation is the outcome. (Revelation 21:1-5) We believe that we are living in the final part of its fulfillment.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
IMHO, the only evidence Christians have for the resurrection of Jesus is their faith and this is good only to those who practice the same faith.
For me, knowing God is to have an understanding of His purpose for the salvation of all humanity. Knowledge comes through what God reveals or manifests through His Great Prophets or Messengers. Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah. They all had a message from God. Christ could not have come if it had not been for Moses. Muhammad could not have come if it had not been for Moses and Christ. Baha'u'llah could not have come if it had not been for Moses, Christ, and Muhammad.
When I went through school, I needed to progress through different classes, teachers, and curriculums as my knowledge grew and developed. It is the same for the education of humanity.
I'm beginning to see why this is so important to you. I agree that there is this close association between the physical and spiritual. I see you analogy though like any analogy it falls down sometimes and is not universally applicable.
I believe that the physical and spiritual are inseparable for the mineral, vegetable, and animal realms. However when we come to the realms of the human world, that of the Manifestation of God, and of God Himself there are increasing degrees of separation between the physical and spiritual. If this were not so how would we overcome the laws of nature and with human invention create an aeroplane and do wondrous things that are contrary to the apparent laws of nature. It is because we have discovered and penetrated some of the mysteries of the invisible realm. This is the realm of both science and religion where new insights, creativity, and innovation predominant.
At some stage we need to accept that the nature of this reality is One. If religion contradicts what science has clearly proven then it does become superstition. This is not to deny Gods power and omniscience. For example the evidence against the world being created 6,000 years ago as literally told in Genesis is too strong to ignore. The Catholic church had the same crisis with Galileo.
John the Baptist was the return of the spirit of Elijah. This is clear from scripture. It is also clear that it is not the same soul but both had similar spiritual qualities and a similar purpose. In a similar manner Baha'u'llah is the return of the spirit of Christ (Christos is Greek for the Messiah). That is my belief so perhaps explains the apparent contradiction between being a Baha'i and Christian.
That is true that I see it as the second one. I would argue that to speak of scripture without a belief in the God who inspired that scripture is like a body (words) without the Spirit. That may be THE fundamental difference in our thinking. I believe in God who is the central concern in my life. For me once I had God in my life, then His manifestation in the form of The Christ came with His Holy Teachings that have lifted my spirits from death to new life. That is what Jesus' resurrection means personally to me.
I think we just have to accept we are both sincere people with passionately and firmly held beliefs. I'm happy with what I believe and would hope that you are a happy person too.
I do have the experience of Jesus saving me, of the love of Jesus, and His spirit in my life. That's just who I am, and as unpalatable as that is for Christians it does not need to have a mandatory belief in a physically resurrected Christ. But I can see why this is extremely important to Christians and many Christians are now responding to this thread.
Christians are like my close brothers and sisters. There is an intense beautiful relationship and we love and accept each other. Of course some Christians find me challenging and confronting. Like brothers and sisters we can have our differences and still be friends.
Understanding Paganism is a work in progress. I understand it through the indigenous peoples of New Zealand, and through Shintoism of Japan where my wife's mother is from. I understand it as I experienced the spirit of nature for 2 1/2 years when I stepped back, lived in the country, and watched the wheels of the world turn round. I understand it as many people in New Zealand are disillusioned with Christianity and have turned away from having any belief. I hope that makes sense.
I see how that bothers you and I'm just explaining to you how I view the world and why this thread has been important for me to set up. I'm not asking you to change your thinking let alone convert to my religion.
Its taken me many years to understand the book of revelations.
Thank you again for sharing your thoughts and perspectives. I like your style of writing and your passion. As our paths intersect on RF perhaps we will better understand each other.
Last edited:
I have the evidence, you don't want to believe it, so you don't, and you have no evidence He did not exist.
He is mentioned by at least 2 historians at that time. Prove them wrong.
You do not have the ability to know what I understand. Just because you don't doesn't mean I don't. Maybe I am just smarter than you are.
You don't know if my faith is blind or not. That is just the usual unsupported rhetoric of non-believers.
I have a sense of Deja vu about this conversation
Anytime some one tries to make an allegory not literal, I usually stick that comment in. You have probably seen it before and will probably see it again. IMO, that is important to know, especially for Christians to know.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
The reason it bothers me is as a minority, I see other minority religions religious traditions, prayers, and rituals taken by majority religions "purposely" to incorporate in their own. Its like my, as a hearing person, taking a Deaf person's sacred language (ASL in the US) and using it as if it were part of my culture because I grown up late in speech and my mother taught me signs but not ASL.
Im not Deaf and Im not legally hard of hearing so no matter my values, I can only be an ally as a student ASL interpreter to the Deaf community.
Pagan religions have been torn by christianity. A whole lot of things. Christianity isnt my religious belief, but I have enough respect for it not to go to Mass, for example, to remind myself of the sacraments I took when I dont believe jesus is god. My views doesnt matter.
If you take out religion and focus say on the Deaf community. Yes, they have values and like experiences but its not just based on that but physical things like ASL, story telling, how they commune with each other, and so forth.
When a mother loves her chold, more likely she gives hug or some physical expression of that love.
In christianity, without the physical resurrection its like having Deaf culture without ASL or a mothers love without physical interaction. Repentence without salvation and so forth.
I disagree. The physical and spiritual are inseprable in spiritual "realms" as well. If you have traditions in your practice, how do you see your traditions separate than your spiritual faith?
When a Muslim bows in prayer they dont separate the bow from their worship. That physical action (like physical resurrsction) IS their worship. In many protestant religions, the resurrection IS the salvation.s
Science doesnt mention god. If it did, why the creator of bahai and not the creator/jesus christ? Why not he pagan god(s) and any other god outside the muslim, christian, and jewish faith. Science doesnt support religion. If it did, we all would find god by studying science. We All cant. It has to be universal for it to be fact not a belief or opinion.
Bahai isnt contradicting christianity. Christianity contradicts bahai. For both to be valid if they incorporate the other in their faith, it has to correlate both ways. Its alright from a bahai perspective but very insultive from a christian one.
Anyone can speak of scripture. Its not a magical book. People almost depend on it as if it were they life. Jesus taught otherwise.
Makes me grit my teeth.
Im not Deaf and Im not legally hard of hearing so no matter my values, I can only be an ally as a student ASL interpreter to the Deaf community.
Pagan religions have been torn by christianity. A whole lot of things. Christianity isnt my religious belief, but I have enough respect for it not to go to Mass, for example, to remind myself of the sacraments I took when I dont believe jesus is god. My views doesnt matter.
I only see religions correlate when both religions arent compomised into anothers belief. For example, catholicism (Roman) has a lot of Roman Pagan beliefs. Even though they mixed by unfortunate means the very fact catholicism is not a pagan faith and visa versa, no matter how much catholicism in the past try to incorporate pagan traditions in their faith, the fact those traditions dont match the history and pagan rituals makes their correlation with pagan faith wrong. Not because I believe in catholicism. Just i dont like people using other peoples religions.
If you take out religion and focus say on the Deaf community. Yes, they have values and like experiences but its not just based on that but physical things like ASL, story telling, how they commune with each other, and so forth.
When a mother loves her chold, more likely she gives hug or some physical expression of that love.
In christianity, without the physical resurrection its like having Deaf culture without ASL or a mothers love without physical interaction. Repentence without salvation and so forth.
I disagree. The physical and spiritual are inseprable in spiritual "realms" as well. If you have traditions in your practice, how do you see your traditions separate than your spiritual faith?
When a Muslim bows in prayer they dont separate the bow from their worship. That physical action (like physical resurrsction) IS their worship. In many protestant religions, the resurrection IS the salvation.s
Science doesnt mention god. If it did, why the creator of bahai and not the creator/jesus christ? Why not he pagan god(s) and any other god outside the muslim, christian, and jewish faith. Science doesnt support religion. If it did, we all would find god by studying science. We All cant. It has to be universal for it to be fact not a belief or opinion.
Bahai isnt contradicting christianity. Christianity contradicts bahai. For both to be valid if they incorporate the other in their faith, it has to correlate both ways. Its alright from a bahai perspective but very insultive from a christian one.
Anyone can speak of scripture. Its not a magical book. People almost depend on it as if it were they life. Jesus taught otherwise.
I just hate seeing religions being incorporated into ithers without both correlating without contradiction and both parties agree. If the Deaf community accepted hearing as part of their community and visa versa then its fine. He very fact I am hearng sets me apart from the community even if i had Deaf parents. Even i I became Deaf later in life Im still at a different standard than someone whose culturally Deaf. If I were Deaf later in life, I can still be part of the culture but I stillnhave to respect my place as well as theirs. Same as christianity and other religions they appropriated in their faith.
Makes me grit my teeth.
Last edited:
How so?
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Nothing and no one Christian was contemporaneous with Jesus. Jesus died without having had the slightest idea about Christianity. The founder of Christianity was Paul and they were not contemporaneous with each other.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Though I noticed this Tread some while ago, I hesitated to answer, as it seems to be central to Christian belief.
All Christian writings and scripture including the Gnostic fragments. All seem to confirm that Jesus was seen alive after his death. Though interestingly there is no story that actually tells of of his Actual arising.
The nearest to that is the story of Mary Magdalene finding the empty tomb and being accosted by the risen Jesus. This leads onto the subsequent “Checking him out” and him showing them his wounds.
It seems strange that even Mary did not recognise him at first
This raises various questions, that would require answers, to establish such an occurrence today.
Was he ever really Dead?
Who opened the Tomb?
Where did he get his new clothes from?
Where was he during those three days?
Is three days sufficient to heal his wounds for him to be able to walk?
Was the person on the cross, the same person who showed his wounds.?
Early documents, Like the Didache, are no help, as it does not mention the “risen Christ” at all. But then it does not mention any Biblical stories either. But more importantly it does not even allude to the death and resurrection in any of its rituals, or teaching of new recruits to the new Judeo/Christian congregations. So for them at least it was not central to their observance of Christianity.
In the same way the Didache make no mention of the virgin Birth, the Trinity, nor the fulfilment of any prophecies.
There is no doubt that all the Biblical stories covering such aspects of Jesus life and teaching were circulating amongst that first generation of Christians, and were in the process of being written down. What we do not know is the emphasis they gave in their day to day observance.
We do know from the Didache that The main focus of these Christian groups was Eschatological in nature. They were in expectation of the imminent coming of the Lord (God) at the end of times. The Lords prayer and the form of the Eucharist, and every thing they did, was to prepare themselves for that coming. The one they expected to come again was the Lord God not Jesus.
With in a very short time, there seems to have been a tidal shift in this entire focus.
The new Jesus cult changed from, Jesus being the Son of God, to the Pauline view of sharing the nature of God. And being not so much the Religion taught by Jesus, but by becoming the religion of Jesus.
To this day the scriptures we find in the Bible. Are very much selected to establish Jesus as God. By confirmation of Prophecy or by stories of miracles, the virgin birth, and his resurrection.
Even the nature of the Eucharist and Lord's prayer has change from being Eschatological, and the gathering of the people into his church, to becoming about the Body and Blood of Christ, and the Lords prayer more about “ God us and now”.
From this you can see why I hesitated to answer..... My views share a somewhat primitive and Unitarian Christianity. With the major focus being On God, as Jesus taught us.
So to the OP's question “Did Jesus physically rise from the dead or this an allegorical story?”
I see the answer as being simply, one of the “Mysteries” that are unexplainable, in the same way as the virgin birth, and the Trinity. They only become essential beliefs if Jesus is promoted to the position God. rather than a son of God.
Cephus
Relentlessly Rational
If you had the evidence, you would present it. The fact that you cannot or will not says a lot.
Neither of which are direct eyewitnesses. In the case of Josephus, he wasn't mentioned by Josephus, it was an early Christian forgery.
And maybe you're not. All I know is what you can actually present and so far, you're not impressing anyone.
All anyone can judge by is what you actually present. So far, you're not presenting anything impressive. Do better.
Cephus
Relentlessly Rational
Heck if I know, I didn't actually write what you quoted me as writing.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Ben, you've forgotten we Jews can point to countless prophecy fulfillment instances that verify that BOTH testaments are God's Word.