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Is God implicated?

rpguy

New Member
If the God of the bible creates our living bodies in the womb, then he is implicating himself in the transmission of our sin nature. If he is only responsible for the creation of our spirits, then we were never born dead spiritually, only physically.

There's plenty of bible verses that say that God creates each one of us, so which is it

Physically?
Spiritually?

Or both.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
If the God of the bible creates our living bodies in the womb, then he is implicating himself in the transmission of our sin nature. If he is only responsible for the creation of our spirits, then we were never born dead spiritually, only physically.
It is true that as a result of original sin our bodies are subject to the frailties which we experience. Nonetheless original sin isn't a property innate to the physical body, rather it is a deprivation within human nature itself. God on His part did not create us with this defect, it was by a wilful act of human disobedience that this situation came to be.

Our physicality in and of itself is not the problem.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If the God of the bible creates our living bodies in the womb, then he is implicating himself in the transmission of our sin nature.

Thanks for heads up @Rival. :)

I am not part of Christendom, so I do not believe what they teach regarding the basis of this thread....but, as a Christian, I will give you the Bible's answer, hoping that will suffice.

First of all God did not create our bodies individually in the womb of our mothers. God created the first humans, and in fact, all living things with the ability to transmit life to the next generation. So we are the product of our parents....not God. He gave them the ability to reproduce, but was not responsible for creating each one of us specifically......we simply aren't that special. :p (apologies to those who think they are)
shy2.gif


It is true that a few individuals have been specially chosen for a role in God's purpose down through the ages, but not many....so he is not implicated in any way for our sinful nature. Adam passed on the "sin" gene to all his children, like an awful terminal genetic disorder. (Romans 5:12)

This is why King David could say...."Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5 HCSB)
He wasn't saying that his mother was a worthless sinner, but that like everyone else she was the victims of a genetic defect that affects all of us. His mother was just as affected by sin as he was, through no fault of their own.

"Sin" in the original languages (Hebrew "chat·taʼthʹ" and Greek "ha·mar·tiʹa") mean “miss”, in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, mark, or right point....like missing a target. This is not God's fault, but Adam's....he was warned of the consequences of disobedience, but deliberately disobeyed a direct command and stole something that did not belong to him. He also aided and abetted his wife in the same crime. :( The death penalty was not negotiable.

If he is only responsible for the creation of our spirits, then we were never born dead spiritually, only physically.

Where will I find a verse that makes this statement in the Bible? Being spiritually dead is a whole lot different to being physically dead.

Again, if we go back to the original languages of the Bible we will see that Christendom teaches that we "have" a soul or spirit that is separate from our body and actually goes on living after we die. Nowhere in the Bible will I find this teaching.
Souls are mortal and can die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
There was never any OT teaching of an immortal soul. There are none in the NT either. This idea was adopted from the pagan Greeks, but it actually props up the first lie told by the devil in Eden...."You surely will not die". God said that they would...so who lied? :shrug:

The Hebrew "neʹphesh" [נֶפֶשׁ]; Greek, psy·kheʹ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
A "soul" is therefore a living, breathing creature. It never means a disembodied spirit.

Adam was not "given" a soul when God created him.....as the apostle Paul wrote..."So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45)
Please notice that the word "became" is used in both instances here in this verse.
Genesis 2:7 says "And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (ASV)

The "spirit" is the lifeforce that animates the body......it is the "breath of life" that made Adam into a soul.
When breathing stops, the spirit is extinguished and the soul dies. (Psalm 146:4)

Life can only be restored by God in a resurrection....something Christendom has lost sight of by adopting a belief that makes it redundant.

So it seems that your definitions were a bit off skew to begin with.....sorry.
IMO, your questions have no answers because they were based entirely on a wrong premise.
bl9.gif
 

rpguy

New Member
It is true that as a result of original sin our bodies are subject to the frailties which we experience. Nonetheless original sin isn't a property innate to the physical body, rather it is a deprivation within human nature itself. God on His part did not create us with this defect, it was by a wilful act of human disobedience that this situation came to be.

Our physicality in and of itself is not the problem.
What's human nature, if it is not composed from the biology of the body?

I thought that this wilful choice, was committed in advance by Adam & Eve. (Resulting in the fall, and the consequence of death/sin)
 

rpguy

New Member
Thanks for heads up @Rival. :)

I am not part of Christendom, so I do not believe what they teach regarding the basis of this thread....but, as a Christian, I will give you the Bible's answer, hoping that will suffice.

First of all God did not create our bodies individually in the womb of our mothers. God created the first humans, and in fact, all living things with the ability to transmit life to the next generation. So we are the product of our parents....not God. He gave them the ability to reproduce, but was not responsible for creating each one of us specifically......we simply aren't that special. :p (apologies to those who think they are)
shy2.gif


It is true that a few individuals have been specially chosen for a role in God's purpose down through the ages, but not many....so he is not implicated in any way for our sinful nature. Adam passed on the "sin" gene to all his children, like an awful terminal genetic disorder. (Romans 5:12)

This is why King David could say...."Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5 HCSB)
He wasn't saying that his mother was a worthless sinner, but that like everyone else she was the victims of a genetic defect that affects all of us. His mother was just as affected by sin as he was, through no fault of their own.

"Sin" in the original languages (Hebrew "chat·taʼthʹ" and Greek "ha·mar·tiʹa") mean “miss”, in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, mark, or right point....like missing a target. This is not God's fault, but Adam's....he was warned of the consequences of disobedience, but deliberately disobeyed a direct command and stole something that did not belong to him. He also aided and abetted his wife in the same crime. :( The death penalty was not negotiable.



Where will I find a verse that makes this statement in the Bible? Being spiritually dead is a whole lot different to being physically dead.

Again, if we go back to the original languages of the Bible we will see that Christendom teaches that we "have" a soul or spirit that is separate from our body and actually goes on living after we die. Nowhere in the Bible will I find this teaching.
Souls are mortal and can die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
There was never any OT teaching of an immortal soul. There are none in the NT either. This idea was adopted from the pagan Greeks, but it actually props up the first lie told by the devil in Eden...."You surely will not die". God said that they would...so who lied? :shrug:

The Hebrew "neʹphesh" [נֶפֶשׁ]; Greek, psy·kheʹ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
A "soul" is therefore a living, breathing creature. It never means a disembodied spirit.

Adam was not "given" a soul when God created him.....as the apostle Paul wrote..."So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45)
Please notice that the word "became" is used in both instances here in this verse.
Genesis 2:7 says "And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (ASV)

The "spirit" is the lifeforce that animates the body......it is the "breath of life" that made Adam into a soul.
When breathing stops, the spirit is extinguished and the soul dies. (Psalm 146:4)

Life can only be restored by God in a resurrection....something Christendom has lost sight of by adopting a belief that makes it redundant.

So it seems that your definitions were a bit off skew to begin with.....sorry.
IMO, your questions have no answers because they were based entirely on a wrong premise.
bl9.gif
Anyway, just wait and see.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
What's human nature, if it is not composed from the biology of the body?
Corporeality is a part, but not the sum of the human creature.

Human nature is the totality of what we are as creatures. From a Catholic point of view not only are we both physical and spiritual; we are also rational, endowed free will, immortal and in the image of God. We may no longer perfectly reflect what we were meant to be, but neither are we totally ruined. Christ by taking on a human nature redeemed it thus with the grace of God we can recapture to some degree that original state and bridge the chasm between us and God.

I thought that this wilful choice, was committed in advance by Adam & Eve. (Resulting in the fall, and the consequence of death/sin)
In advance?

But yes, and as the progenitors of humanity they passed on to us the consequences of their fall. God isn't implicated in any way, He could have just destroyed us, but instead did something much greater and sent us Christ.
 
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rpguy

New Member
Corporeality is a part, but not the sum of the human creature.

Human nature is the totality of what we are as creatures. From a Catholic point of view not only are we both physical and spiritual; we are also rational, endowed free will, immortal and in the image of God. We may no longer perfectly reflect what we were meant to be, but neither are we totally ruined. Christ by taking on a human nature redeemed it thus with the grace of God we can recapture to some degree that original state and bridge the chasm between us and God.


In advance?

But yes, and as the progenitors of humanity they passed on to us the consequences of their fall. God isn't implicated in any way, He could have just destroyed us, but instead did something much greater and sent us Christ.
Well where is that original sin nature then, not in our bodies, in our spirit, no? Well it can't be in nature itself (Help me out here)

The bible says we are born dead, due to the fall of Adam & Eve. Now what I want to figure out is (Are we spirituality dead or physically dead in that nature)
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Well where is that original sin nature then, not in our bodies, in our spirit, no? Well it can't be in nature itself (Help me out here)
It is in the very fact that we are human. It's not our bodies, nor our souls, but our humanity which we inherited as fallen.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
This question simply exposes the different understanding between Christian denominations.
Some of these have already been promoted in this thread.

Perhaps one of the most Distinctive is that of the JW's who see Soul as meaning Body and Spirit, a position not taken up by any other group of Christians. They also promote the concept of Original sin and the inerrancy of the Bible.

This Bible Innerancy concept is shared by a number of Protestant denominations especially those thought of as Evangelical or Calvinistic.

The Liberal Denominations and the traditional Catholic and Orthodox are moving further away from the concept of "original sin" and certainly do not limit their Christianity to "Bible Alone" concepts.
Nor do many believe that God is involved directly in physical procreation. But do understand the spirit nature of our souls and it's direct connection with God.

All men sin, All sin is our own, No sin is inherited. All sin can be forgiven.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If the God of the bible creates our living bodies in the womb, then he is implicating himself in the transmission of our sin nature. If he is only responsible for the creation of our spirits, then we were never born dead spiritually, only physically.

There's plenty of bible verses that say that God creates each one of us, so which is it

Physically?
Spiritually?

Or both.
I do not believe God is responsible for the sin we have received by inheritance from Adam. Rather, "through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12) 1 Corinthians 15:21 affirms this; "death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man." IMO, Jehovah was undeservedly kind in allowing us to be born at all.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The bible says all good things come from the Father. We can take that to mean what's good about us we get from God, what's evil we inherit from Satan through original sin.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
If the God of the bible creates our living bodies in the womb, then he is implicating himself in the transmission of our sin nature. If he is only responsible for the creation of our spirits, then we were never born dead spiritually, only physically.

There's plenty of bible verses that say that God creates each one of us, so which is it

Physically?
Spiritually?

Or both.

I don't believe the sin nature comes from the body. I believe the body is amoral. I also believe that sin isn't natural.

I believe God ordains which genetic factors will combine to form a new body and I believe God ordains which spirit will enter which body.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Well where is that original sin nature then, not in our bodies, in our spirit, no? Well it can't be in nature itself (Help me out here)

The bible says we are born dead, due to the fall of Adam & Eve. Now what I want to figure out is (Are we spirituality dead or physically dead in that nature)

Spiritually dead. Christians were born spiritually dead; so, that is why they have temptation to sin. Once they sin/made a transgression against god, they are separated from god. The only way they can reunite with god (through jesus) is by repentance.

Sinful nature (temptation to sin) is in the flesh; spiritually dead is the nature of the spirit before the person has given their life to christ.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It is in the very fact that we are human. It's not our bodies, nor our souls, but our humanity which we inherited as fallen.

I believe I am not human. I believe I am descended from the gods and their alien kin. I believe I may be Pleiadean. I believe the only race that was called human was the Adamic race. Human race referring to all people is a current and innaccurate terminology.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I do not believe God is responsible for the sin we have received by inheritance from Adam. Rather, "through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12) 1 Corinthians 15:21 affirms this; "death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man." IMO, Jehovah was undeservedly kind in allowing us to be born at all.

I believe Paul is in error on this because it was what he was taught. Sin existed long before Adam was created.
 
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