SunMessenger
Catholic
For some reason the quote did not appear I am attempting to edit it in now... Thank YouSoyLeche said:Maybe it's just me, but isn't this a different topic deserving its own thread? I wouldn't want you to hijack your own thread
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Why Do Some Christians Not Recognize The Holy Mother Of Jesus?
- Thread starter SunMessenger
- Start date
Saint George
Member
The "Immaculate Conception" is another name for Mary. The Catholic Church recognized this name several centuries ago to reinforce the idea among believers that Mary was conceived without sin (ie she was born of a virgin mother).
The phrase "Immaculate Conception" gained popularity in Lourdes, France when Mary appeared to a young poor country girl who was not well schooled in the Catholic catechism. The girl ask Mary who she was and Mary replied "I am the Immaculate Conception". The girl had no idea what this phrase meant but she relayed it to a local priest. This simple reply was further evidence of the divine nature of the visions of Mary that this girl had seen. After Lourdes, the term "Immaculate Conception" was used quite liberally in the Catholic Church to reference Mary.
The phrase "Immaculate Conception" gained popularity in Lourdes, France when Mary appeared to a young poor country girl who was not well schooled in the Catholic catechism. The girl ask Mary who she was and Mary replied "I am the Immaculate Conception". The girl had no idea what this phrase meant but she relayed it to a local priest. This simple reply was further evidence of the divine nature of the visions of Mary that this girl had seen. After Lourdes, the term "Immaculate Conception" was used quite liberally in the Catholic Church to reference Mary.
SunMessenger
Catholic
Thank You for bringing it to my attention.SoyLeche said:Maybe it's just me, but isn't this a different topic deserving its own thread? I wouldn't want you to hijack your own thread
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Soy's first two posts were, I felt, arguing from a standpoint of sola scriptura. "It's not in the Bible, and, in fact, Luke has a passage about Jesus not wanting us to revere his mother."Katzpur said:
My post was hoping to point out that LDS belief and practice goes beyond Biblical confines, therefore, his arguing from a sola scriptura standpoint was useless. I wasn't saying that y'all's beliefs about J. Smith and Moroni were invalid. I was only saying that sola scriptura doesn't wash here.
Sorry if I came off as hostile.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I think what bothers me is the idea that Mary has been given power over life and death. I have no doubt but that John Paul's life was preserved for many years in order that he could lead the Catholic Church as well as he did. I have a great deal of respect for him, but I don't believe that Mary saved his life. I believe that God saved his life.SunMessenger said:
Would you mind doing some research (if you don't know the answer off the top of your head) and let me know when the first accounts of Mary having been granted supernatural powers date from? Were Christ's Apostles ever protected by her or did she ever appear to them in any sort of apparition? When did such events first take place?
SunMessenger
Catholic
I found this site when I began to research these matters. They have great links to many other sites and a wonderful link to a rendition of Ave Maria which I am listening to now. I hope it helps. Let Me Know. Thanks. Be Well and God Bless... Click Here ...Katzpur said:
http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian.htm
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Katzpur said:When do we see this doctrine first taught. (You know where I'm going here, buddy.
We've gone down this road before. I can't even get you guys to stick to a date. And when I do give you something the person is considered invalid because he is not an Apostle. I don't get you guys.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Yeah, the road is familiar. It's hard to pin down an exact date, because the Apostasy didn't just happen one afternoon at 4:42 P.M. ETS. The further and further we get away from the time of Christ, the more we question the validity of the event, particularly when there is nothing Biblical to fall back on. I can't recall personally having said that only the Apostles' words are reliable. As a matter of fact, I don't believe that to be the case. But I would be skeptical of somebody's account first recorded in 475 A.D. in which it is written that such-and-such supposedly happened to someone back in 50 A.D., and that it's therefore "tradition" and can be accepted as an official statement of what took place. To me, in order for tradition to be a worthwhile source of information, I would need to know how and when that tradition started.Victor said:
I don't really think that's all that unreasonable.
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Which I don't get. But to each his own.Katzpur said:
Katz my dear just read your post and you'll notice that even YOU don't know (see bold). Why would you expect me to?Katzpur said:To me, in order for tradition to be a worthwhile source of information, I would need to know how and when that tradition started.
Besides, if I do manage to find things in the first 100 years it's just going to be put into the "oh that's part of Apostasy" bucket.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, since you don't believe there was an Apostasy, then I guess you might just want to start with the oldest verifiable information available and see how much slack I'm willing to cut you.Victor said:
Not necessarily. If something was actually written/recorded during that period of time, I'd give it some serious consideration. After all, like you, I consider myself receptive to truth, regardless of its source.
Todd
Rajun Cajun
SunMessenger said:
I think Mary was a blessed women. She got to be the person that birthed the son of God. She also got to see angels before her. However, I think she is no more than any of the other saints. Should we worship Moses who stood on holy ground in the presence of God. No. Should we worship Samuel who spoke to God audibly. No. Should we worship Noah and his family who God chose to survive when he decided to destroy the rest of the world due to corruption. No. Should we worship angels in which we have been instructed not to in the bible. Then neither should we worship Mary. She was chosen by God, but she's not the Chosen One. That title is for Jesus.
Throughout the bible, the theme is that she was blessed and found favor with God, but that she is only a woman and not to be worshipped. Examples:
Luke 1:30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.
Luke 11:27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."
Matthew 13:55 "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?
Mark 6:3 "Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Matthew 10:37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."[g]
48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
The last bible quote I mention is probably the most important. It's also repeated in the bible (Mark 3:32, Luke 8:19) which means that it is significant. Jesus is basically saying that Mary is no greater than anyone else in whom believe in him. She is a believer and to be respected for her role, but she is not holy. She sinned just like us and must rely on the salvation of Christ just like we do. Due to all these examples, I do not think we should pray to Mary.
BTW. I was a Catholic most of my life and prayed to Mary many times. It wasn't until I read the bible a few times that I felt that it was wrong.
Simon Gnosis
Active Member
You mean The virgin Isis don't you?
The worship of Isis (the holy virgin as she was known) and Jesus ran concurrent to each other in the early days of the conversion of Rome to monotheism and I believe there has been some significant blending with the two faiths in the beginning.
The venerated status of Mary is a result of Isis and christian religous fusion, this aspect of female divinity and purity was actually useful to the church and thus certain Isis traditions where positively encouraged to basically reinforce the idea that Jesus was the product of the holiest possible origins, a virgin mother (therefore 'pure') and Almighty God.
There for me there is no reason for anyone to worship or venerate her unless of course you can find a path way to God (which is just your particular view/search of God) through Mary, which in that case is fine by me.
I think Mary's vision of divinity to people is just as important and valid as any other.
However the catholic worship/veneration/whatever of Mary Mother of God is but one interpretation of God and the human condition.
The worship of Isis (the holy virgin as she was known) and Jesus ran concurrent to each other in the early days of the conversion of Rome to monotheism and I believe there has been some significant blending with the two faiths in the beginning.
The venerated status of Mary is a result of Isis and christian religous fusion, this aspect of female divinity and purity was actually useful to the church and thus certain Isis traditions where positively encouraged to basically reinforce the idea that Jesus was the product of the holiest possible origins, a virgin mother (therefore 'pure') and Almighty God.
There for me there is no reason for anyone to worship or venerate her unless of course you can find a path way to God (which is just your particular view/search of God) through Mary, which in that case is fine by me.
I think Mary's vision of divinity to people is just as important and valid as any other.
However the catholic worship/veneration/whatever of Mary Mother of God is but one interpretation of God and the human condition.
This is the same type of superficicial nonsense that we see regarding Mithras. From Wikipedia:Simon Gnosis said:
Some scholars argue that aspects of Isis worship have influenced the practices of some Christians in regard to the Virgin Mary, and especially her relationship with her son, Jesus. There is a strong resemblance to the depiction of the seated Isis holding or suckling the child Horus (Harpocrates) and the seated Mary and the baby Jesus. It has been suggested by these scholars that the reason Isis worship abruptly ends, despite the vast number of its adherents, is due to her having been identified as Mary, and her temples having been merely renamed in consequence. If this is true then it could be said that, in a way, Isis is still worshipped today, and has been for at least 5000 years.
Many Egyptologists however disagree with the claims, stating that by the time the cult of Virgin Mary arose, the worship of Isis has greatly evolved from the Egyptian myths, and her relationship with Horus was no longer a major factor. These egyptologists consider that the goddess whose worship was replaced by Christianity was a merged Isis-Aphrodite hybrid, with sexuality and magical aspects much more important to the cult. By this time she was almost never depicted as a mother with baby; she was mostly depicted alone, often lifting her dress to expose her genitals.
So, for example, your "belief" finds no reflection in the authorative, two volume, Religions of Rome, despite the fact that volume 1 has more than a few references to Isis.Many Egyptologists however disagree with the claims, stating that by the time the cult of Virgin Mary arose, the worship of Isis has greatly evolved from the Egyptian myths, and her relationship with Horus was no longer a major factor. These egyptologists consider that the goddess whose worship was replaced by Christianity was a merged Isis-Aphrodite hybrid, with sexuality and magical aspects much more important to the cult. By this time she was almost never depicted as a mother with baby; she was mostly depicted alone, often lifting her dress to expose her genitals.
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
SoyLeche said:
How does this:
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!
28 But He said, More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!
In any way support the conclusion you have made? To paraphrase it, the woman from the crowd says 'Your mother is blessed to have born you' and Christ replies something to the effect of, 'People who hear the word of God and stick to it are blessed'. That is not in any way a negation of the blessedness of the Theotokos but rather a correction as to what infers blessedness. Mary did indeed hear the word of God and abide by it (in fact she's pretty much the greatest example of this) and so by Christ's own words she is blessed. I don't see how this passage in any way constitutes a condemnation of the veneration of the Theotokos but rather that it makes us think about why we venerate her. We venerate her precisely for her unquestioning obedience to the will of God and not just because of a familial relationship to Christ (though the latter inevitably derives from the former).
James
Simon Gnosis
Active Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
Thats your opinion.
Just as valid.
You can't be certain there is no truth in it though, whatever you may believe.
Authoritive Religions of Rome?
Perhaps but no book is utterly empirical, ive never read it so I cant really comment further, Ive read a few books about roman theology, but not that one.
SunMessenger
Catholic
Sorry for any misunderstanding but I do not mean to conclude in any way that we pray to The Holy Mother as if She were God. That was not the issue. The issue is how can Christians not honor Her as a very special person who by your quotes has found favor with God. Have You or I found favor with God ? I would like to think so but we really will not know for sure until He Wills it. Here we read of someone quite clearly being One Who Is In Gods Favor. Sounds like a great recommendation to me. Jesus honored His Mother and in His responses illustrated to the people for the purpose of lesson that no one person on earth is better than the next in the Eyes Of God. He was a wonderful teacher as He taught by example. Including His Mother in these teachings by word shows this. How did The Holy Mother sin ? This I am not aware of. Be Well and God Bless ...Todd said:
Simon Gnosis
Active Member
SunMessenger said:
What does 'honouring' her (The Virgin Mary) mean for you?
How does this differ from your relationship with christ?
When does 'honouring' the Virgin Mary become relevant?
Sorry..
SunMessenger
Catholic
Well it entails much . It entails recognition as A Blessed person. That is first. A Blessed Person would receive our respect and devotion as they would be One Who is Held In Good Favor Of God . It would mean accepting that being Blessed may hold some very special status before God . This is a wonderful reason to be held in high esteem among mere humans . It gives credence to a wide range of probability that Our Beloved Holy Mother may indeed have a special and sacred rapport with Jesus and The Father in Heaven. It also gives great hope for the forgiveness of sins to all Christians as that is the main message in devotional prayers with Her Name. Does this mean we pray to Her as we would pray to God ? No. It does however lead back to the original questions . What is wrong with praying with Her to God and recognizing Her as The Blessed Holy Mother ?SoyLeche said:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, which is it? Do you believe it is appropriate to pray to Mary or not? I'm having a hard time understanding your position. The reason I do not pray to Mary (aside from the fact that Jesus specifically instructed us, by His example, to pray to "our Father which art in Heaven") is that God is in a position to be able to answer our prayers. Only someone who is divine can do that, and Mary was not divine. In order to have Mary pray with you, you must first be able to make contact with her, and the only way you could do that is to communicate to her through prayer. I'm just trying to figure out why you believe she is able to hear your prayers any more than any other deceased person can hear your prayers.SunMessenger said: