Thief
Rogue Theologian
I reason....there are 7billion+ copies of a learning device wandering on this earth
each one generating a unique spirit on each occasion
and no one survives the last breath?
I suspect many of us will
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Why can't Lucifer ever be redeemed?
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
each one generating a unique spirit on each occasion
and no one survives the last breath?
I suspect many of us will
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Based on? I know I don't have to ask to know you have never communicated with a dead person.
ensnaturae
New Member
Who would invent sin???!!!
Its a human course of action, a very common one..when an individual or group hopes to take control or manipulate or use power over others...is to award blame. Use *guilt* as the means of control. If you can make someone feel shame or guilt, they will be trapped by it. Make them feel like "sinners" whether they have made mistakes or not.
From a 'Loving' perspective, even people who *choose*, deliberately, to do evil things, are simply ignorant. There was no unbelievably cruel..!!...*loving father forcing his son to suffer horrible pain. Obliging him to die as a human sacrifice*.
The power groups of the day, did all they could..to award Jesus the status of vile wrong doer, eventually persuading a huge crowd that Jesus deserved to be crucified. Jesus himself defeated all accusation, as you and I may when falsely accused..he stayed connected with Love, as one with Love, and would never be persuaded by "the devil" that he was a sinner, a wrong doer, a man who could ...perform magic and convince the world of metaphysical powers..but refused to do so. He had but ONE path to take, the same path for you and for me..that is ...to stay close to Love, his god, and to be true to himself, as child of god.
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
I believe it was God who created Lucifer, not Jesus.
I believe Lucifer existed longer than Jesus did.
Lucifer chose to rebel against God because he disliked what God was doing. God likes to lie and manipulate others.
So that will be like judgment day?
Btw what teaching are these that you learned?
Rapture Era
Active Member
Ingledsva,
Thank you for your response! And yes, I made a mistake, I meant to write Ezekiel 28 not 24, sorry about that. I wasnt expecting to respond to you with a long response but these are very interesting passages and I would like to explain my view of context as you have done. I too believe context is very important.
The story of Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. So I'd like to look briefly at both of these.
It would seem from the context of Ezekiel 28 that the first ten verses of this chapter are dealing with a human leader. Then, starting in verse 11 and on through verse 19, Lucifer is the focus of discussion.
What is the rationale for the conclusion that these latter verses refer to the fall of Lucifer? Whereas the first ten verses in this chapter speak about the ruler of Tyre (who was condemned for claiming to be a god though he was just a man), the discussion moves to the king of Tyre starting in verse 11. Many scholars believe that though there was a human “ruler” of Tyre, the real “king” of Tyre was Satan, for it was he who was ultimately at work in this anti-God city and it was he who worked through the human ruler of the city.
Some have suggested that these verses may actually be dealing with a human king of Tyre who was empowered by Satan. Perhaps the historic king of Tyre was a tool of Satan, possibly even indwelt by him. In describing this king, Ezekiel also gives us glimpses of the superhuman creature, Satan, who was using, if not indwelling, him.
Now, there are things that are true of this “king” that—at least ultimately—cannot be said to be true of human beings. For example, the king is portrayed as having a different nature from man (he is a cherub, verse 14); he had a different position from man (he was blameless and sinless, verse 15); he was in a different realm from man (the holy mount of God, verses 13,14); he received a different judgment from man (he was cast out of the mountain of God and thrown to the earth, verse 16); and the superlatives used to describe him don’t seem to fit that of a normal human being (“full of wisdom,” “perfect in beauty,” and having “the seal of perfection,” verse 12 NASB).
Also, I should back up a bit to make this point. Verse 13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God;" There were only four in the garden of Eden; God, Satan, Adam & Eve.
Our text tells us that this king was a created being and left the creative hand of God in a perfect state (Ezekiel 28:12,15). And he remained perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him (verse 15b). What was this iniquity? We read in verse 17, “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” Lucifer apparently became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone. The sin that corrupted Lucifer was self-generated pride. There is that word again. What comes before a fall? PRIDE!
Apparently, this represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Eve and then Adam by an indeterminate time. Sin originated in the free will of Lucifer in which—with full understanding of the issues involved—he chose to rebel against the Creator.
This mighty angelic being was rightfully judged by God: “I threw you to the earth” (Ezekiel 28:18). This doesn’t mean that Satan had no further access to heaven, for other Scripture verses clearly indicate that Satan maintained this access even after his fall (Job 1:6-12; Zechariah 3:1,2). However, Ezekiel 28:18 indicates that Satan was absolutely and completely cast out of God’s heavenly government and his place of authority (Luke 10:18).
Isaiah 14:12-17 is another Old Testament passage that may refer to the fall of Lucifer. We must be frank in admitting that some Bible scholars see no reference whatsoever to Lucifer in this passage. It is argued that the being mentioned in this verse is referred to as a man (Isaiah 14:16); is compared with other kings on the earth (verse 18); and the words, “How you have fallen from heaven” (verse 12), is alleged to refer to a fall from great political heights.
There are other scholars who interpret this passage as referring only to the fall of Lucifer, with no reference whatsoever to a human king. The argument here is that the description of this being is beyond humanness and hence could not refer to a mere mortal man.
There is a third view that I think is preferable to the two views above. This view sees Isaiah 14:12-17 as having a dual reference. It may be that verses 4 through 11 deal with an actual king of Babylon. Then, in verses 12 through 17, we find a dual reference that includes not just the king of Babylon but a typological description of Lucifer as well.
If this passage contains a reference to the fall of Lucifer, then the pattern of this passage would seem to fit that of the Ezekiel 28 reference—that is, first a human leader is described, and then dual reference is made to a human leader and Satan.
It is significant that the language used to describe this being fits other passages in the Bible that speak about Satan. For example, the five “I wills” in Isaiah 14 indicate an element of pride, which was also evidenced in Ezekiel 28:17 (cf. 1 Timothy 3:6 which makes reference to Satan’s conceit).
As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41). So in total context, we see that it is ultimately about Lucifer/Satan. Hope this helps.
Last edited:
Rapture Era
Active Member
Just curious, you make this statement as fact. Where are you getting this from?
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
I have heard of stories of people saying that "Lucifer hates you, he wants your soul, he wants to keep you away from God, he wants to kill you". blah blah blah.
I honestly think those are lies just to keep people away from Lucifer so they can worship God.
Again what is the point to repent if jesus died for your sins. It makes no sense at all.
If god is the source of all power then why don't I see him healing the sick? Most of the time I hear people die from diseases. God just sits there and does nothing.
I choose to follow Lucifer. To me he is the light, the truth, and the liberator. Don't like that then deal with it.
It makes more sense now. God loves us so much that he created hell just in case if we reject him.
If we reject god we go to hell and burn forever. Sounds like god gets jealous when someone doesn't want to follow his BS. Like I said before god only wants power and worship.
How wonderful god is huh?
You will never change my mind about following Lucifer. He will always be the one I follow. He will always be knows as a my liberator.
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
Lmfao
That is true.
Sadly that is also true.
No point for him to die for us if he came back three days later.
Lucifer is pretty chill though. Get to know him somtime.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
I may not play for his team, but we have this kind of "you go do your thing, I'll do mine" thing going on. 
Super Universe
Defender of God
You believe it was God who created Lucifer? Why? Because that fits with what you want to be true? Why would anyone want to be a rebel against God?
You believe Lucifer existed longer than Jesus did? You can believe that if you wish. Nothing in this universe existed before Jesus. Jesus is the architect of this universe.
Lucifer chose to rebel against God because he disliked what God was doing? The bible does not give you enough information to know what really happened. Where are you getting this from?
Lucifer's trial will be like judgment day? No, it will be like a trial.
Humans have received revelation throughout our history. We're still receiving it. The problem is that we don't understand context. We really think that we're alone in the universe and that God is only concerned about being involved with us.
There is no judgment day for humanity but there is a judgment day for you, when you die and wake up at the next level. Also, the earth will be destroyed, eventually, in about 2.8 billion years when the sun expands into a red giant.
What is the teaching that I have learned? Look up at the top right corner of my posts, it says my "religion". By the way, the Urantia Book details the Lucifer Rebellion. You might find it interesting.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Those in glass houses should not throw stones
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
It is not what I want it to be true. It is the fact that IT IS true. God created Lucifer and everyone else in heaven. This world is wayyyyy older than jesus. That is a fact.
You must be those types who doesn't believe in evolution. You don't believe dinosours existed before humans existed on this earth?
It is kind of obvious that when you see someone who lies and manipulates a bunch of people that you don't want to deal with that persons BS anymore.
And what trial is that.
I kinda doubt that.
Nah it's cool.
Rapture Era
Active Member
Well, there you have it!"I choose to follow Lucifer. To me he is the light, the truth, and the liberator. Don't like that then deal with it."
Frankly I dont really care what you choose to believe, that is your God given right to make a choice that will ultimately seal your eternity. If you think Satan, the father of all lies is the truth, that he comes as an angel of light to deceive you as your light, and the one who will be responsible for duping you into an eternal destination of hell your liberator? I certainly wont have to deal with it, you will!
Sounds like a great plan!
Super Universe
Defender of God
We shouldn't do a lot of the things we do.
Super Universe
Defender of God
It's fact that God created Lucifer? I will look at your evidence of this. Uh, you have some, don't you?
The world is way older than Jesus? It's older than Jesus human body, He just came here because in order to judge us and determine who gets to ascend to heaven, He had to see what it is like to actually be human.
I don't believe in evolution? I absolutely believe in evolution. Evolution is the way God forms sentient beings.
God lies? Your evidence?
God manipulates? Your evidence?
What trial is that? Michael (Jesus) vs Lucifer.
You doubt that there is no judgment day for humanity? Why? Does it fit with what you want to believe? Why would you want to believe something like that?
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
Frankly I dont really care what you choose to believe, that is your God given right to make a choice that will ultimately seal your eternity. If you think Satan, the father of all lies is the truth, that he comes as an angel of light to deceive you as your light, and the one who will be responsible for duping you into an eternal destination of hell your liberator? I certainly wont have to deal with it, you will!
- I don't believe Lucifer is the father of lies.
- So then god must have created hell just incase if you reject him right?
Rapture Era
Active Member
* Of course you dont
* No, not right.
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
I don't need to give you any proof.
Isn't jesus the son of "god"? Jesus cannot be god.
Jesus wanted to know what it was like to be human? I thought with jesus being the son of god he would know already. I guess jesus wasn't that smart enough.
You said this in the forum "Nothing in this universe existed before Jesus. Jesus is the architect of this universe."
It sounds like you don't believe in evolution.
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
Only because he never was. I believe it was god who made him look like a liar.
Then why was hell created then?
Super Universe
Defender of God
You don't need to give me any proof? No, you don't. But, there really aren't many sources, I mean, the main one is the bible.
Isn't Jesus the son of God? He is, any man is also a son of God. And women are daughers of God.
Jesus wanted to know what it was like to be human? Hmm, don't know if He wanted to be human, I guess He did since He chose the Earth and not some other sentient being on some other planet. It's a rule. It's not God's rule, it's a very high level angelic rule set by angels called Ancients of Days. I'm not really sure if Jesus could have skipped it altogether. That would have been like a Colonel telling his men to charge a hillside while he went back into a bunker and drank tea and watched television.
Jesus, being the son of God, should know everything already? School books can teach you a lot but actually experiencing it gives you a much fuller perspective. Also, it impresses the angels when you go through it.
Jesus wasn't smart enough? Smart is being a leader who isn't afraid of getting a little dirty once in a while.
Nothing in this universe existed before Jesus is correct. Just because I believe in God and Jesus doesn't mean that evolution can't be correct. Religions can't handle the idea of evolution because, if true, that means humans aren't as important as we thought we were and, maybe, we aren't Gods only purpose.
God says He has a plan for you? Did He tell you this Himself? That's from the bible. There is a plan, you can be a part of it or not.
The bible says that God heals the sick? Yeah, humans put a lot of primitive stuff in there. You have to remember that primitive humans thought that spirits, and then God, were very involved in human affairs. God has never intervened, ever. The humans didn't know the cause of disease, drought, earthquakes, lightning, meteors, so they blamed it all on God.
God gives free will, so why do we need forgiveness for sins if He gave us free will? You are right. People have what's called a conscience, not all, but most. The conscience makes us feel regret for things we've done. Some people destroy their lives because of the things they've done in the past. Some people destroy others lives because of what someone has done to them. We can help ourselves if we learn to forgive ourselves for what we've done and forgive others. I'm not saying forget, I'm saying lose your anger over what happened.
How do I know the trial is Michael vs Lucifer? Look up in the right corner of my posts where it says my "religion". The Lucifer Rebellion starts on page 551.