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Indus Valley Civilization

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
You did not answer my question though, in the example I gave of horse, why is the PIE word beginning with an 'e' sound and not an 'a' sound. You see this is important, because it on this basis that a distance is created between India and PIE. If the original language had an 'e' sound for horse, than does it not preclude Sanskrit?
I very deliberately did not answer your question, because, as I tried to explain to you, it was the wrong question. Technically, the PIE word does not begin with a sound, but with a symbol that represents a sound correspondence across a cognate set. The choice of the symbol can be controversial, because there are different arguments over what the original sound was, but the symbol chosen represents the one that scholars have felt to be most likely to represent the original sound. The result has been a reconstructed phonemic system that looks really implausible to most linguists. It is just a table of suggested phonetic symbols. More plausible systems have been proposed, but those have no bearing on the real question here, which is not about pronunciation but vocabulary-based cultural concepts. Whether or not the original initial vowel in "horse" was [a] or [e] does little to tell you whether it corresponds to the Sanskrit short vowel /a/. The reconstructed form for "horse" in Proto-Indo-Iranian is represented as *aćva, because the majority of daughter languages start with that vowel, not just Vedic Sanskrit. However, there is the Kurdish cognate in the cognate set for "horse": hesp/esp/asp (See Proto-Iranian language - Wikipedia). Note that a "majority rule" principle for selecting symbols is not necessarily an accurate method of deciding what the original protoform was. Sometimes, we use our knowledge of how phonology changes in order to posit a more plausible form, but that is for more advanced discussion. What is important here is that a reconstructed phoneme symbol can be misleading vis a vis actual historical pronunciation. The reconstructed PIE word for the nominative case of "horse" is *h₁éḱwos.

I am really confused now. You are saying that no language has descended from Sanskrit? Isn't practically 80% of all modern Indian languages descended from Sanskrit? Hindi, Gujurati, Bengali etc? Or are you saying they have descended from prakrits? Isn't that just vulgarised Sanskrit, like Pali, Ardhamagadhi? I am asking this as a question.
The answer is absolutely not. Sanskrit was a literary/liturgical language that brahmin priests tried to preserve. It may have been important in public speaking and other forms of scholarly activity, perhaps even a trade language. The spoken languages (Prakrits) were related forms of speech (call them "dialects") that evolved somewhat separately from each other and were contemporaneous with Sanskrit. Modern Hindi and Urdu evolved from a spoken Prakrit, not literary Sanskrit. Similarly, modern Romance languages evolved out of spoken venacular Latin in different parts of the empire, not the classical Latin spoken by Cicero. The vocabulary and pronunciation was affected by conditions in those different geographical regions. So proto-Indic would look something like Vedic Sanskrit but actually have a somewhat different phonemic system, grammar, and vocabulary that would be based on comparing it with the oldest versions of the various Indian-Aryan "prakrits". And believe me when I tell you that there are a lot of them.

OIT theorists say that Sanskrit is the original mother language of all IE languages. Our claim is Sanskrit on transit from India to Western Europe has undergone modification i.e. lost the original number of cases, declensions, genders and sounds etc Hence we find that Avestan is extremely close to Sanskrit as Persia was India's direct neighbour, and then the second most closest is Lithuanian and and the furthest is Celtic.
OK, but, with all due respect, "OIT theorists" are not linguists with informed knowledge of how to describe languages or how language change works. So they are prone to jump to rather naive conclusions. And please drop this talk about the Balto-Slavic language Lithuanian. It has a lot of interesting features, but it is a really superficial claim to say that it is closer to PIE than other modern languages. It is not even an Indo-Iranian language, which Sanskrit is. All daughter languages have undergone substantial changes. Sanskrit was not an ergative language, but modern Hindi has evolved ergative traits with certain participial forms of the verb. It has postpositions where Sanskrit merely had suffixes (like Latin, Greek, and other older forms of IE languages). If you were to look at Old English (Anglo-Saxon spoken in Wessex, not the ancestor of the modern London dialect), you would find it almost impossible to understand. Languages change substantially over just a few centuries, so please beware of facile claims about how close Vedic Sanskrit was to ancestor languages spoken thousands of years earlier.

Another group of OIT theorists accept PIE but they say PIE was spoken in India.

I want to know the reasons why both are impossible according to linguistics.
The correct expression is "highly implausible", not "impossible". There is nothing in the PIE vocabulary set that suggests concepts specific to the Indian subcontinent. Also, there are few plausible changes in sound correspondences that could reasonably be derivative of proto-Indic, but those arguments require substantial knowledge not just of typological universals, but a sophisticated understanding of how articulatory mechanics work. Again, you would need a much more general introduction to linguistics before you could really appreciate those arguments.

I am no expert in physics, and string theory sounds very intriguing to me, but I would not presume to argue with physicists over the merits of string theory. I just don't have the grasp of the technical details to do that. Similarly, I don't know enough about history to take a position on precisely why the Venetian empire collapsed. I might be able to read some internet materials on the subject and ask some interesting questions about conclusions that historians take seriously, but I wouldn't presume to challenge consensus opinions on such matters. You have summarily dismissed an entire field of study without ever having taken even an introductory course in the subject. Trying to play catch-up on the Internet is better than nothing, but it can't sustitute for a formal introduction to the subject. You don't have the requisite knowledge to label scholarly opinions as "speculation".

So really effectively it is just guessing. Okay, all I am saying is how you arrive at a theory is irrelevant. You could have got it in a dream or given it by aliens --- but it has to be tested. How do we know that PIE as it has been reconstructed is correct?
We don't, especially if we are unschooled in the subject matter. If you are really interested, please continue to inform yourself about it by whatever means is available to you, including web pages. Just be careful not to believe everything you read, especially when it is published on web sites published by those with a political axe to grind.

@Copernicus Can I add a question, suppose that I accept there really was a migration of Indo-Aryan speaking people into India from the Steeps or wherever, how do you know the date of this event? What if the Indo-Aryan speakers were already in India in 7000BCE? What if they entered India in 10,000BCE? How do you know dates by just analysing linguistic data?
I would rather you phrased the question more accurately as "How can you be sure that...?" Nobody is claiming absolute knowledge of the facts here. Estimates of dates are always within a range, because we have no written records. Some of those dates are informed by archaeological data. Some by how likely it is for daughter languages to diverge from a mother language over time. If you just look at how radically languages deviate over time, basing this on recorded history, we see sound correspondences that prove genetic relationships over a few millennia. Beyond that, the changes would probably become too radical to establish proof of genetic origins. That is why we can establish a large number of language families around the world, given records from recorded history and from linguistic research on language families around the world. However, we run into extreme difficulties in trying to prove relationships between large language families such as Indo-European (the best-studied language family) and Altaic or Turkic. I think that we can now establish a relationship between Altaic languages such as Turkish and, say, Korean and Japanese. However, such arguments are fairly complex and sophisticated. They go beyond mere reliance on sound correspondences across cognate sets. And that is not an area of specialization for me, so I tend to be more neutral than other linguists on the merits of the argument.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Friend, AMT means Aryans migrated into India. I agree to that. As for date, when it happened, I am non-committal.Yes, historicity of Buddha also is questioned. See it here: Google (38,60,000 result). Same with Aryans as a people. I believe it because we have the Vedas, reference to Panchajanas, the Avesta, etc. It is good to question things, nothing wrong with that. It is the scientific method. That is what Buddha said to Kalamas (Kalama Sutta - Wikipedia):

1. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing (anussava), 2. nor upon tradition (paramparā), 3. nor upon rumor (itikirā), 4. nor upon what is in a scripture (piṭaka-sampadāna), 5. nor upon surmise (takka-hetu), 6. nor upon an axiom (naya-hetu), 7. nor upon specious reasoning (ākāra-parivitakka), 8. nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over (diṭṭhi-nijjhān-akkh-antiyā), 9. nor upon another's seeming ability (bhabba-rūpatāya), 10. nor upon the consideration, The monk is our teacher (samaṇo no garū).

"Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them'."

You are questioning the historicity of Buddha and at the same time quoting him.

Don't you think that is something absurd in itself. Why quote someone who had not existed in the first place ! What authority would such a quote have in instruction considering that it came from a fictitious entity, as per you.

I understand that you wish to manipulate the facts to fit your viewpoint, but sooner or later you might find all these theories tumbling down as new facts , genetic studies emerge. ;)

I don't see any reason why the ancient vedic civilization should not have been there in 3500 b.c, considering the numerous references to saraswati river in the rig veda and also considering that the river dried up at around that point as per geological studies.

Here is an article.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
How do I know whether he existed or not? I surely did not meet him. I have read what he is suppose to have aid and I like it. Therefore, I quote what he is supposed to have said. What Buddha and Sankara are supposed to have said is important to me. I like their philosophies, therefore, if they existed, I would consider myself like their disciple, though I do not wholly agree with what both are reported to have said. I furrow my own line. :D

I too do not see any reason why Vedic people might not have existed much earlier than even 3,500 BC. As I have mentioned, at one time the vernal equinox sun used to rise in the asterism of Castor and Pollux (Punarvasu). The deity of Punarvasu is Aditi, who is considered to be the mother of seven Adityas and also of the eighth, Martanda, who was born unformed. So, she took Martanda to the Gods to be born and die. Aditi was considered to be the Samvatsara, ubhaya-mukhi (double ended), being the beginning and the end of Yajna. That takes us to 6,000 BC. That is the earliest dates that can be surmised from RigVeda.

However, the mention of a deluge by snow in Gathas takes us back to the last glaciation when Ahur Mazda informed Yima (Yama of the Vedas and Jamshid of the later Iranian), the king of Men, of the impending disaster when there will be ten months of winter and two months of summer, which too will be cold for men, cattle and vegetation, and now will cover not only the valley but even the tops of mountains by ten yards. :)

"The name Jamshid is originally a compound of two parts, Jam and shid, corresponding to the Avestan names Yima and Xšaēta, derived from the proto-Iranian *Yamah Xšaitah. Yamah and the related Sanskrit Yama are interpreted as "the twin," perhaps reflecting an Indo-Iranian belief in a primordial Yama and Yami pair. By regular sound changes (y → j, and the loss of the final syllable) Avestan Yima became Middle Persian Jam, which was subsequently continued into New Persian.

There are also a few functional parallels between Avestan Yima and Sanskrit Yama, for instance, Yima was the son of Vivaŋhat, who in turn corresponds to the Vedic Vivasvat, "he who shines out", a divinity of the Sun. Both Yamas in Iranian and Indian myth guard Hell with the help of two four-eyed dogs.

Xšaitah meant "bright, shining" or "radiant" and is probably cognate with the Sanskrit word "Shrestha". By regular sound changes (initial xš → š (sh); ai → ē; t → d between vowels; and dropping of the final syllable) xšaitah became Persian shēd or shid. In the Western Iranian languages such as Persian, the vowel /ē/ is pronounced as /i/. Consequently, Jamshēd (as it is still pronounced in Tajikistan, Pakistan and Afghanistan) is now pronounced Jamshid in Iran."
Jamshid - Wikipedia

If you want more information about Yima/Yama's dogs (Shwana) then I am game.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
So, here we are...

Sumerian writing emerging in 3000bc from mesopotamia, Egyptian writing appearing around the same time in egypt, semitic writings appearing in 2500, a Vedic Sanskrit emerging sometime before 1500bce, Linear A a little before that period in Greece along with Hittites producing written language at the same time.

We know three great civilizations existed for many of the same years. We have evidence of trade between these three civilizations. The geographic areas encompassed by the three cultures were peopled long before the rise of these civilizations. Each of these three cultures made major contributions to technology for the time when they existed. We can show how two of these three cultures developed an advanced form of writing. The third is supposed to have had either a former of writing or proto-writing (even though it interacted with the two other cultures of smaller size that had a writing system), yet a language emerges in the exact location of this third civilization that conveys advanced thoughts at some point before 1500bce. And, instead of attributing the emergence of this language to the third civilization we say that it was carried there by a migration?

I can follow that a series of words exist in related languages that could only have come from a language which originated from outside of India/Pakistan but isn't it more plausible that those words developed from a language that emerged once it had left India? After all dont languages emerge over time? Further, wouldn't we expect a new language to emerge over time in India (eventually leading to sanskrit). And if language left and returned to India in chunks as people's migrated in and out as people are want to do in large civilization, wouldn't we expect there to be influence and affinity between the languages and cultures in the surrounding area?

Is this not what we have? We have a language Sanskrit that is distinct from other languages to which it related and used to convey complex concepts that most likely were generated by an advanced civilization not a group of wandering people's migrating from the north on horseback and spending most of their lives hunting and gathering.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. a Vedic Sanskrit emerging sometime before 1500bce, ;;

The third is supposed to have had either a former of writing or proto-writing (even though it interacted with the two other cultures of smaller size that had a writing system), yet a language emerges in the exact location of this third civilization that conveys advanced thoughts at some point before 1500 bce.

Is this not what we have? We have a language Sanskrit that is distinct from other languages to which it related and used to convey complex concepts that most likely were generated by an advanced civilization not a group of wandering people's migrating from the north on horseback and spending most of their lives hunting and gathering.
No one can date Vedic Sanskrit. It is PIE that changed during Aryan travel to India.

The third civilization initially did not develop anything other than rudimentary writing (IVC seals), that seemed to have been sufficient for their purpose. When (perhaps) a new people joined them (perhaps) bringing with them a new language, then there was a proliferation of ideas. They still did not care for writing because they could memorize their lore. Then came a great grammarian, Panini, who put down strict rules about how to use that language.Their priestly class spent a lot of time and effort to do that. A whole system of preservation was developed which saved words and even the sounds.

We had these grammarians even before Panini (400 BC). There was Yaska (700 C) and even before that, there was my name sake Aupmanyava, clearly a kin of the present poster. Yes, Sanskrit differs, but not in a great measure. Avestan and Iranian are close. We have words which are similar to word in all European languages. After all, all these languages are derived from PIE. Yeah, after coming to India, Aryans settled down in villages and left their wandering ways.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I cited earlier, it even says in the Rig Veda "Oh Saraswati, if you were to spurn us, we would migrate to distant lands"
There are two problems with this line. Which Saraswati is being talked about? Because Aryans knew River Argandhab in Afghanistan also as Saraswati (Harahvaiti) and Hari-rud as Sarayu (Haroyu). And if it was the Indian Saraswati, then the Aryans surely moved after it dried up. Some went to the Gangetic plain and further to Gauda (Bengal) and some crossed the Vindhyas to go South. Few leave India after coming here. It is a lovely land with lovely people. That is why no major exodus has ever taken place in India.
 
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Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
I very deliberately did not answer your question, because, as I tried to explain to you, it was the wrong question. Technically, the PIE word does not begin with a sound, but with a symbol that represents a sound correspondence across a cognate set. The choice of the symbol can be controversial, because there are different arguments over what the original sound was, but the symbol chosen represents the one that scholars have felt to be most likely to represent the original sound. The result has been a reconstructed phonemic system that looks really implausible to most linguists. It is just a table of suggested phonetic symbols. More plausible systems have been proposed, but those have no bearing on the real question here, which is not about pronunciation but vocabulary-based cultural concepts. Whether or not the original initial vowel in "horse" was [a] or [e] does little to tell you whether it corresponds to the Sanskrit short vowel /a/. The reconstructed form for "horse" in Proto-Indo-Iranian is represented as *aćva, because the majority of daughter languages start with that vowel, not just Vedic Sanskrit. However, there is the Kurdish cognate in the cognate set for "horse": hesp/esp/asp (See Proto-Iranian language - Wikipedia). Note that a "majority rule" principle for selecting symbols is not necessarily an accurate method of deciding what the original protoform was. Sometimes, we use our knowledge of how phonology changes in order to posit a more plausible form, but that is for more advanced discussion. What is important here is that a reconstructed phoneme symbol can be misleading vis a vis actual historical pronunciation. The reconstructed PIE word for the nominative case of "horse" is *h₁éḱwos.


The answer is absolutely not. Sanskrit was a literary/liturgical language that brahmin priests tried to preserve. It may have been important in public speaking and other forms of scholarly activity, perhaps even a trade language. The spoken languages (Prakrits) were related forms of speech (call them "dialects") that evolved somewhat separately from each other and were contemporaneous with Sanskrit. Modern Hindi and Urdu evolved from a spoken Prakrit, not literary Sanskrit. Similarly, modern Romance languages evolved out of spoken venacular Latin in different parts of the empire, not the classical Latin spoken by Cicero. The vocabulary and pronunciation was affected by conditions in those different geographical regions. So proto-Indic would look something like Vedic Sanskrit but actually have a somewhat different phonemic system, grammar, and vocabulary that would be based on comparing it with the oldest versions of the various Indian-Aryan "prakrits". And believe me when I tell you that there are a lot of them.


OK, but, with all due respect, "OIT theorists" are not linguists with informed knowledge of how to describe languages or how language change works. So they are prone to jump to rather naive conclusions. And please drop this talk about the Balto-Slavic language Lithuanian. It has a lot of interesting features, but it is a really superficial claim to say that it is closer to PIE than other modern languages. It is not even an Indo-Iranian language, which Sanskrit is. All daughter languages have undergone substantial changes. Sanskrit was not an ergative language, but modern Hindi has evolved ergative traits with certain participial forms of the verb. It has postpositions where Sanskrit merely had suffixes (like Latin, Greek, and other older forms of IE languages). If you were to look at Old English (Anglo-Saxon spoken in Wessex, not the ancestor of the modern London dialect), you would find it almost impossible to understand. Languages change substantially over just a few centuries, so please beware of facile claims about how close Vedic Sanskrit was to ancestor languages spoken thousands of years earlier.


The correct expression is "highly implausible", not "impossible". There is nothing in the PIE vocabulary set that suggests concepts specific to the Indian subcontinent. Also, there are few plausible changes in sound correspondences that could reasonably be derivative of proto-Indic, but those arguments require substantial knowledge not just of typological universals, but a sophisticated understanding of how articulatory mechanics work. Again, you would need a much more general introduction to linguistics before you could really appreciate those arguments.

I am no expert in physics, and string theory sounds very intriguing to me, but I would not presume to argue with physicists over the merits of string theory. I just don't have the grasp of the technical details to do that. Similarly, I don't know enough about history to take a position on precisely why the Venetian empire collapsed. I might be able to read some internet materials on the subject and ask some interesting questions about conclusions that historians take seriously, but I wouldn't presume to challenge consensus opinions on such matters. You have summarily dismissed an entire field of study without ever having taken even an introductory course in the subject. Trying to play catch-up on the Internet is better than nothing, but it can't sustitute for a formal introduction to the subject. You don't have the requisite knowledge to label scholarly opinions as "speculation".


We don't, especially if we are unschooled in the subject matter. If you are really interested, please continue to inform yourself about it by whatever means is available to you, including web pages. Just be careful not to believe everything you read, especially when it is published on web sites published by those with a political axe to grind.


I would rather you phrased the question more accurately as "How can you be sure that...?" Nobody is claiming absolute knowledge of the facts here. Estimates of dates are always within a range, because we have no written records. Some of those dates are informed by archaeological data. Some by how likely it is for daughter languages to diverge from a mother language over time. If you just look at how radically languages deviate over time, basing this on recorded history, we see sound correspondences that prove genetic relationships over a few millennia. Beyond that, the changes would probably become too radical to establish proof of genetic origins. That is why we can establish a large number of language families around the world, given records from recorded history and from linguistic research on language families around the world. However, we run into extreme difficulties in trying to prove relationships between large language families such as Indo-European (the best-studied language family) and Altaic or Turkic. I think that we can now establish a relationship between Altaic languages such as Turkish and, say, Korean and Japanese. However, such arguments are fairly complex and sophisticated. They go beyond mere reliance on sound correspondences across cognate sets. And that is not an area of specialization for me, so I tend to be more neutral than other linguists on the merits of the argument.

Dear Copernicus,

I want you to place yourself in our shoes for a while, to at least understand our position. Revisit my 'house' analogy. These colonial era scholars turned up at our door, claiming that the some 10,000 years of continuous history we have recorded is rubbish, that in fact our history is not that ancient at all, but it is only 3500 years old. Not only that we, or rather our Aryan ancestors are not even Indian, but were actually ancestors of them who had invaded us in 1500BCE and established our civilisation. We respond, "Preposterous, what proof do you have for this" You reply "Our method of historical linguistics shows that" It becomes your burden of proof to prove it, because you are making an extraordinary claim, not ours to study you historical linguistics.

If an astrologer comes and tells us you must all abandon your country right now, because a great calamity is about to come, and we respond "Preposterous, what do proof do you have for this" and he replies "My method of astrology shows that" It becomes the burden of proof of the astrologer to prove it.

You are making an extraordinary claim that forces us to discard 10,000 years of our history, so it is your job to prove it, not our job to to spend 5 years studying your great science. To be frank I am not interested in linguistics, it looks like a boring subject to me. However, the only reason I am interested in linguistics right now, is wrt to my history --- because AMT rests purely on linguistics.

I have asked you repeatedly to show me how linguistics forces your conclusions, and I have just got back vague, wishy washy and esoteric answers. So I will try again, because we Indians are not going to budge, until you have proven your claims. Although you forced your way into our "house" a century ago, the newly independent Indians are no longer your subjects, we can speak on behalf of our ancestors who had no choice a century ago. We want proof.

You keep saying for example Vedic Sanskrit is only 1500BCE. Okay, then prove it. I have already shown in this thread how this initial date was arrived at by Muller, and he himself retracted that date. What is your evidence that Vedic Sanskrit is only 1500BCE or that Aryans arrived into India in 1500BCE? This is not an unreasonable question to ask at all.
 
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Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Also, while you're at it, can you explain why every other field archaeology, geology, metallurgy, astronomy contradicts your conclusions?
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
There are two problems with this line. Which Saraswati is being talked about? Because Aryans knew River Argandhab in Afghanistan also as Saraswati (Harahvaiti) and Hari-rud as Sarayu (Haroyu). And if it was the Indian Saraswati, then the Aryans surely moved afterit dried up. Some went to the Gangetic plain and further to Gauda (Bengal) and some crossed the Vindhyas to go South. Few leave India after coming here. It is a lovely land with lovely people. That is why no major exodus has ever taken place in India.

The Saraswati river described in the Rig Veda is unambiguously the Saraswati river in India, because it describes its course and there is an explicit Nadi Suktam describing all the rivers of India from West to East(re Sindhu, Narmada, Saraswati, Sutlej, Ganga, Yamuna etc) As I explained earlier the geological records matches the literary record.

The fact that Indian river names are then used by the Iranians and then the Lithuanians, completely supports out point that they are tribes that migrated from India searching for distant lands migrate to and named the rivers there after the rivers in India. Sort of like how Indian expats create a little India when they move to distant lands today.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"Preposterous, what proof do you have for this"
I try telling the theists that God/Gods/Goddesses are figments of their imagination. Show proof if you have any. They don't show any proof but continue to believe in their Gods.

Your situation also is similar You believe that your (and possibly mine too) Aryan ancestors were not outsiders. But you have to prove that. Just saying that is not enough. How come the age of Kurgan is the oldest and that of BMAC is the younger. If there was a migration out of India, the picture should have been different. BMAC should have been older and Kurgan younger. Where is the proof of Aryans in India around 5,000 BC as they have in Kurgan culture? Now, do not hark about Puranas. Nobody will take them as history. Here is the time line of Indo-European cultures:

IE Cultures.jpg


As you will notice that the Dneiper-Don area cultures are older and BMAC or Andronovo is younger. That clearly shows a movement of people from West to East. Unless you provide some proof like this, harping on IVC does not really help your case. Archaeology proves otherwise.

Maps and images: Indo European cultures - Google Search
Also, while you're at it, can you explain why every other field archaeology, geology, metallurgy, astronomy contradicts your conclusions?
What contradictions are you talking about. Kindly mention them so that I can address them.
The Saraswati river described in the Rig Veda is unambiguously the Saraswati river in India, because it describes its course and there is an explicit Nadi Suktam describing all the rivers of India from West to East (re Sindhu, Narmada, Saraswati, Sutlej, Ganga, Yamuna etc).
Nadi Sukta is a late Vedic hymn. The hymn that you are quoting has no mention of Indian rivers. Who knows if the poet meant the Argandhab River (Harahvaiti)? Or even no terrestrial river but the Milky Way that Aryans considered to be the Celestial river Saraswati and considered it as a Goddess (not Vac). In RigVeda these two are separate. In later Hinduism, these two were combined into one.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
No one can date Vedic Sanskrit. It is PIE that changed during Aryan travel to India.

The third civilization initially did not develop anything other than rudimentary writing (IVC seals), that seemed to have been sufficient for their purpose. When (perhaps) a new people joined them (perhaps) bringing with them a new language, then there was a proliferation of ideas. They still did not care for writing because they could memorize their lore. Then came a great grammarian, Panini, who put down strict rules about how to use that language.Their priestly class spent a lot of time and effort to do that. A whole system of preservation was developed which saved words and even the sounds.

We had these grammarians even before Panini (400 BC). There was Yaska (700 C) and even before that, there was my name sake Aupmanyava, clearly a kin of the present poster. Yes, Sanskrit differs, but not in a great measure. Avestan and Iranian are close. We have words which are similar to word in all European languages. After all, all these languages are derived from PIE. Yeah, after coming to India, Aryans settled down in villages and left their wandering ways.
I am not putting a date on sanskrit. I am putting a minimum on sanskrit. No one disagrees that sanskrit existed in 1500bce. And even with this date we have an event that should create cognitive dissonance with the current mainstream theories. I am suggesting pie came from India and IE was a language that emerged outside of India from that language. Then this language branched out whether via Anatolia or kurgan and had an effect on both the other languages that developed from the line of languages that continued to emerge in India Pakistan region and the other branches that spread into Europe.

The reason for this is the level of advancement we see in Vedic Sanskrit. How else can we make sense of it? Theven level of cultural advancement reflected in Vedic Sanskrit only makes sense if it emerged from an urban civilization.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Dear Copernicus,

I want you to place yourself in our shoes for a while, to at least understand our position. Revisit my 'house' analogy. These colonial era scholars turned up at our door, claiming that the some 10,000 years of continuous history we have recorded is rubbish, that in fact our history is not that ancient at all, but it is only 3500 years old. Not only that we, or rather our Aryan ancestors are not even Indian, but were actually ancestors of them who had invaded us in 1500BCE and established our civilisation. We respond, "Preposterous, what proof do you have for this" You reply "Our method of historical linguistics shows that" It becomes your burden of proof to prove it, because you are making an extraordinary claim, not ours to study you historical linguistics.

If an astrologer comes and tells us you must all abandon your country right now, because a great calamity is about to come, and we respond "Preposterous, what do proof do you have for this" and he replies "My method of astrology shows that" It becomes the burden of proof of the astrologer to prove it.

You are making an extraordinary claim that forces us to discard 10,000 years of our history, so it is your job to prove it, not our job to to spend 5 years studying your great science. To be frank I am not interested in linguistics, it looks like a boring subject to me. However, the only reason I am interested in linguistics right now, is wrt to my history --- because AMT rests purely on linguistics.

I have asked you repeatedly to show me how linguistics forces your conclusions, and I have just got back vague, wishy washy and esoteric answers. So I will try again, because we Indians are not going to budge, until you have proven your claims. Although you forced your way into our "house" a century ago, the newly independent Indians are no longer your subjects, we can speak on behalf of our ancestors who had no choice a century ago. We want proof.

You keep saying for example Vedic Sanskrit is only 1500BCE. Okay, then prove it. I have already shown in this thread how this initial date was arrived at by Muller, and he himself retracted that date. What is your evidence that Vedic Sanskrit is only 1500BCE or that Aryans arrived into India in 1500BCE? This is not an unreasonable question to ask at all.
Dear Spirit Warrior,

At this point, you seem to have completely abandoned the linguistic discussion and fallen back on an argument from national pride. Quite honestly, I have no sympathy at all for that kind of argument. It is a nativist argument that exists in every country on the planet and manifests itself most strongly in extremist political movements. I don't think that Indian superpatriots are any better or worse than American or British superpatriots. If you want to call those who disagree with you racists, colonialists, or whatever other pejorative label you have in mind, I can't stop you and have no interest in pursuing it. I get enough of it here with the rise of Donald Trump and the neofascists that he is bringing into power.

The linguistic and archaeological evidence is fairly clear. The IVC had largely collapsed before the Indo-Aryans arrived in northern India. They probably arrived from the BMAC, after the spoke-wheeled war chariot had been invented there, not in India. Some Indo-Aryans appear also to have migrated all the way into the Anatolian peninsula. This is a matter for experts in history, archaeology, and linguistics to investigate, not amateurs with a political agenda and a Google bar.

You can choose to ignore the consensus of scholars and pursue your nativist argument in India, where you will find a lot of people who think that they themselves are somehow descended from a superior culture grounded in their native religion and language. That kind of pseudohistorical argument is what led the German Nazi party to adopt a swastika symbol and call themselves "Aryans", thinking that Germans were somehow the pure descendants of the real Aryans and that Indians were inferiors that had mixed with non-aryan native populations. The Nazis opposed Max Muller's claim and that of other scholars that his linguistic hypotheses had nothing to do with race. They felt that they had everything to do with German culture and the so-called German "race", just not your "race". The fact is that the Indo-Aryans did develop one of the most advanced cultures in the world in India, and it probably did blend its non-native BMAC traditions with native ones in India. There is no shame in that. Take pride in it, even if the great scientific and philosophical advances it made emerged much later than you imagine. India has a great history and a great culture even if the Indo-Aryan success story is only 3500 years old. Don't ask me to feel sorry for you because it isn't older.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Friend, AMT means Aryans migrated into India. I agree to that. As for date, when it happened, I am non-committal.

Sigh Aupmanyav, can't be bothered anymore. AMT might mean Aryans migrated to India, but the theory of AMT says they migrated to India in 1500BCE and composed the Rig Veda by 1200BCE. You are here defending a theory that opposes your own own theory that the Rig Veda was composed in 10,000BCE and prior. You are arguing cross purposes. Anyway, enjoy, this is my last reply to you in this thread.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Dear Spirit Warrior,

At this point, you seem to have completely abandoned the linguistic discussion and fallen back on an argument from national pride.

You can choose to ignore the consensus of scholars and pursue your nativist argument in India, where you will find a lot of people who think that they themselves are somehow descended from a superior culture grounded in their native religion and language.

My dear friend did you hear today about India setting a new space record by launching 100+ satellites into space in one go? Did you hear about India's mission to Mars? Did you know India's current economy is $8.6 trillion(PPP) and just overtook the British economy this year(nominal) Do you know India's economy in 2050 will be $42 trillion(PPP) by 2050? Do you know India has the fourth most powerful military in the world?

--- We have many current things to be proud about. We do not need some ancient glory to feel proud. So quit this argument of national pride, because it is a double ended sword. We can argue similarly, as Ajay pointed out earlier, Europeans who do not have an ancient history like Indians, Sumerians, Egyptians and Chinese, want to lay claim to be the Aryans to feel like they too have an ancient history. The fact that several Europeans have used Aryanism to construct a sense of national pride is well known to everybody with the Germans, and even today you can go onto a white nationalist forum and they proudly declare their Aryanhood. If you are going to argue to us of national pride, we will throw it back at you .

The linguistic and archaeological evidence is fairly clear. The IVC had largely collapsed before the Indo-Aryans arrived in northern India. They probably arrived from the BMAC, after the spoke-wheeled war chariot had been invented there, not in India. Some Indo-Aryans appear also to have migrated all the way into the Anatolian peninsula. This is a matter for experts in history, archaeology, and linguistics to investigate, not amateurs with a political agenda and a Google bar.


Why did you react with so much hostility to a very simple and reasonable question. You might be dismissive of discarding 10,000 years of our history, but we are not. You first have to prove to us that AMT is correct, that Aryans migrated into India in 1500BCE and composed the Rig Veda by 1200BCE. We are asking you to prove it. And this is the argument you give back

You can choose to ignore the consensus of scholars

I gave you an opportunity to prove it to me, but as usual from my AMT proponents, you fall back on dogma and linguistic hubris. Basically I know you don't have any proof. You're just speculating. There is a lot of maybes, guesses, could be "They probably arrived from the BMAC, after the spoke-wheeled war chariot had been invented there, not in India."

Probably, maybe, educated guesses is not enough. We are not going to throw away 10,000 years of our history and all the archaeological, geological, astronomical and metallurgical evidence. That reminds me you still have not answered the question I asked earlier, why does the Rig Veda not mention iron and why does the Rig Veda mention the Saraswati river as thriving, when iron working was fully established in India by 1500BCE and saraswati river had completely dried up by 1900BCE,

Quit the rhetoric and get to the evidence.
 
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Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Spirit Warrior, anyone can dismiss established scholarship with the wave of a hand and deny the existence of evidence on the basis of quibbles and ambiguous figurines. You are not the first internet warrior to engage in argumentum ad nauseam, but that is a sign that our discussion has come to an end. If you were not promoting these ideas on the basis of national pride, you would not keep trying to make this argument about colonialism and outsiders trying to deny your sacred heritage.

Anyway, FTR, archaeological evidence clearly shows that the war chariot was invented in the Andronovo archaeological horizon and that Sintashta-Indo-Iranian peoples imported it into India. See Chariot - Early Indo-Iranians:

The earliest fully developed spoke-wheeled horse chariots are from the chariot burials of the Andronovo (Timber-Grave) sites of the Sintashta-Petrovka Proto-Indo-Iranian culture in modern Russia and Kazakhstan from around 2000 BCE. This culture is at least partially derived from the earlier Yamna culture. It built heavily fortified settlements, engaged in bronze metallurgy on an industrial scale and practiced complex burial rituals reminiscent of Hindu rituals known from the Rigveda and the Avesta.

Over the next few centuries, the Andronovo culture spread across the steppes from the Urals to the Tien Shan, likely corresponding to the time of early Indo-Iranian cultures.

Chariots figure prominently in Indo-Iranian mythology. Chariots are also an important part of both Hindu and Persian mythology, with most of the gods in their pantheon portrayed as riding them. The Sanskrit word for a chariot is rátha- (m.), which is cognate with Avestan raθa- (also m.), and in origin a substantiation of the adjective Proto-Indo-European *rot-h₂-ó- meaning "having wheels", with the characteristic accent shift found in Indo-Iranian substantivisations. This adjective is in turn derived from the collective noun *rot-eh₂- "wheels", continued in Latin rota, which belongs to the noun *rót-o- for "wheel" (from *ret- "to run") that is also found in Germanic, Celtic and Baltic (Old High German rad n., Old Irish roth m., Lithuanian rãtas m.)
World history and Indian prehistory is far different from the fantasy you are promoting.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
The earliest fully developed spoke-wheeled horse chariots are from the chariot burials of the Andronovo (Timber-Grave) sites of the Sintashta-Petrovka Proto-Indo-Iranian culture in modern Russia and Kazakhstan from around 2000 BCE. This culture is at least partially derived from the earlier Yamna culture. It built heavily fortified settlements, engaged in bronze metallurgy on an industrial scale and practiced complex burial rituals reminiscent of Hindu rituals known from the Rigveda and the Avesta.

Over the next few centuries, the Andronovo culture spread across the steppes from the Urals to the Tien Shan, likely corresponding to the time of early Indo-Iranian cultures.

Chariots figure prominently in Indo-Iranian mythology. Chariots are also an important part of both Hindu and Persian mythology, with most of the gods in their pantheon portrayed as riding them. The Sanskrit word for a chariot is rátha- (m.), which is cognate with Avestan raθa- (also m.), and in origin a substantiation of the adjective Proto-Indo-European *rot-h₂-ó- meaning "having wheels", with the characteristic accent shift found in Indo-Iranian substantivisations. This adjective is in turn derived from the collective noun *rot-eh₂- "wheels", continued in Latin rota, which belongs to the noun *rót-o- for "wheel" (from *ret- "to run") that is also found in Germanic, Celtic and Baltic (Old High German rad n., Old Irish roth m., Lithuanian rãtas m.)
World history and Indian prehistory is far different from the fantasy you are promoting.

My dear friend, I tire of your rhetoric, so I am not going to give you fodder for more rhetoric. You are flogging a long dead horse(pun intended)

The Horse and the Aryan Debate by Michel Danino

Oh look a spoked wheel:

terracotta-wheels-1.jpg



Oh look horses:

horse-lothal.jpg



horse-mohendra.jpg



A horse figurine did emerge at Mohenjo-daro (Fig. 2), which drew the following comment from E. J. H. Mackay, one of the early excavators at the site:

Perhaps the most interesting of the model animals is one that I personally take to represent a horse. I do not think we need be particularly surprised if it should be proved that the horse existed thus early at Mohenjo-daro.27​

I told you earlier I will let you do the research for yourself, but you didn't. So now that your best "evidence" has been refuted. What else have you got to prove that the Aryans arrived in India in 1500BCE?
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"The fact is that the Indo-Aryans did develop one of the most advanced cultures in the world in India, and it probably did blend its non-native BMAC traditions with native ones in India. There is no shame in that. Take pride in it, even if the great scientific and philosophical advances it made emerged much later than you imagine. India has a great history and a great culture even if the Indo-Aryan success story is only 3500 years old. Don't ask me to feel sorry for you because it isn't older."

Kudos, Cop. That is why I am engaging these people. I am no less patriotic than these people, perhaps more. But one does not need to take recourse to lies. Chauvinist people won't ever understand that.
:) The native component is older (IVC, 3300 BC) and its contribution is no less significant. People tend to forget its importance. The great Hindu ideas of Ahimsa, Peaceful co-existence and Meditation, came from it.


The reason for this is the level of advancement we see in Vedic Sanskrit. How else can we make sense of it? Even level of cultural advancement reflected in Vedic Sanskrit only makes sense if it emerged from an urban civilization.
I credit the coming together of two people, the Aryans and the indigenous, for the advancement. The mixing, sort of, energized both. Both alone perhaps could not have done it.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
I credit the coming together of two people, the Aryans and the indigenous, for the advancement. The mixing, sort of, energized both. Both alone perhaps could not have done it.
I'm not saying that is not a possibility. I am suggesting that the mainstream theories create cognitive dissonance. Is it possible that a group came in and brought a language with them and ideas were put in that language? It is possible. But it seems unlikely. It seems more likely that sanskrit emerged from the massive culture that existed in India Pakistan. I am trying to understand why people think otherwise. I see the shared words argument and I think that can be explained without excluding India/Pakistan region. Further we can show that sounds existed in an "indo european" language that did not exist in sanskrit and could not have come about without the existence of certain sounds in a language distinct from sanskrit from which Sanskrit also emerged. This can also be explained. Similarly, OIT archeological, and geographical evidences can be rationalized as you did with the quote from a survey of hinduism earlier in the thread.

But all explanations are not equal. Most certainly the subject requires more study. But as of now I have a huge problem regarding the explanation of how an advanced culture did not come up with a language that reflects thoughts and technology of an advanced civilization.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
OIT is the theory of Hindu chauvinists, the Hindu Nazis. And it is false. Sanskrit and Aryans came to India from Central Asia.
 
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