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Indus Valley Civilization

Kirran

Premium Member
What I hear is that there is no Neanderthal gene in the sub-continent as it is in Europe. East Asian population was a migration from West. :)

I've done some studies etc on this one - there have been two primary admixture events, one occurring essentially during the first exit from Africa (so all y'all Indians got that, as did the Japanese and the Navajo and the Finns and the Aborigines) and then that secondary one in Central Asia which the East Asians inherited.

Oh, that makes eveything clear. So, you are a son of the soil. I find no reason that you should hate your Y-Chromosomal DNA. Being R1a1a, it is respectable. :D

Hahaha! No reason to hate, indeed :)
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
@ajay0, Copernicus is a well-read person and I suppose he has read quite many Hindu scriptures, though I never had the chance to ask him this question. As he mentioned, he knows Sanskrit and Hindi. He is a linguist.

If he have read the scriptures he would have known that the ramayana with its characters of Janaka, Vasistha and Vishwamitra mentioned in the Rig Veda as well, would not have occurred after the 2000 b.c arrival of so-called aryans. You would have to compress the mahabharatha and krishna as well in the same time frame and then you meet buddha in 500 b.c. arguing with the brahmins and establishing buddhism.

That is too short a period for a well-established civlization, mentioned in the ramayana and mahabharatha along with the upanishads too come into existence.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I remember talking to a Lithuanian scholar, who told me there is an even an oral tradition preserved by Lithuanians of their migration from out of India. However, in India we find the PIE religion in its full glory, we find all the PIE gods, all the PIE mythology and and fully formalized traditions of ritual religion - why only in India? If it is true the PIE people spread all around the world, we should expect to find it everywhere.
Ah, he was trying to humor you. Yes, Aryan heritage was saved in India because it became one with Hinduism. Equivalent of Vedic mythology are found all over Eurasia.
If you travel to Iran, you find the second most of the features are retained, if you travel to Eastern Europe you find the third most features are maintained, and when you come into Western Europe most of the features are lost. This is entirely consistent with a Westwards movement from India into Europe.
That is undertandable. Britain is farther from Andronovo than Eastern Europe. The mythology of Bactrian Aryans was affected by Zoroaster and the Iranian emperors adopted Zoroastrianism. Do not think that the surviving Indian mythology is pure PIE mythology. What we have with us also is modified by time.
I think you might be suffering from a bit of an inferiority complex regarding your history. Why are the Puranas crap and Herodotus etc not crap? They record continuous urban civilisation in India going back 7000 years.
There is no inferiority complex. I am calling a spade a spade. Puranas are concoctions and exaggerations, albeit for a different purpose and not history. Same with Herodotus. It is ignorance to take them as actual history. Puranas are not 7,000 year old. To say that is a bit schyzophrenic.
It even explicitly says should the river Saraswati ever spurn them, they will migrate to distand lands. .. The Mahabharata also explicitly mentions towards the end of the Mahabharata age extensive migrations out of India into the Mleccha land and conquering them.
If you have a reference for these, kindly let me know so that I can satisfy myself.
The Rig Veda does not mention any iron, rather it uses the word 'ayus' which is a common IE word used for "bronze".
That is right. 'Ayas' was Copper and Bronze and at a later stage even Iron. But in an earlier age it as used for stone as well.

तस्मै तवस्यमनु दायि सत्रेन्द्राय देवेभिरर्णसातौ l
प्रति यदस्य वज्रं बाह्वोर्धुर्हत्वी दस्यून पुर आयसीर्नि तारीत ll

tasmai tavasyamanu dāyi satrendrāya devebhirarṇasātau l
prati yadasya vajraṃ bāhvordhurhatvī dasyūn pura āyasīrni tārīt ll
RV II.20 verse 8

Now forts cannot be made of metals, therefore 'Ayas' must mean stone also.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
If he have read the scriptures he would have known that the ramayana with its characters of Janaka, Vasistha and Vishwamitra mentioned in the Rig Veda as well, would not have occurred after the 2000 b.c arrival of so-called aryans. You would have to compress the mahabharatha and krishna as well in the same time frame and then you meet buddha in 500 b.c. arguing with the brahmins and establishing buddhism.

That is too short a period for a well-established civlization, mentioned in the ramayana and mahabharatha along with the upanishads too come into existence.
It is not necessary that every one would agree to your contention that Rama avatara happened around 7,000 BC and the Krishna avatar around 3,000 BC. People question even the historicity of Buddha and Jesus, what to talk of Rama and Krishna, or of Apollo and Dionysus!
 
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Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
I am learning linguistics as we go on, so I will leave Copernicus or somebody else who has studied linguistics to correct. I have been looking at the PIE reconstructions and how its done. I want to show you how PIE is reconstructed using this "scientific method" This is how it starts, you start with a list of words in front of you

English horse

English, Old English: eoh
Gothic: aíƕa
Latin: equus
Ancient Greek hippos:
Sanskrit: áśvaḥ
Iranian, Avestan: aspa
Baltic, Lithuanian: asva
Celtic, Old Irish: Ech
Hittie, Luwian: ásùwa
Tocharian: yakwe

So now how do they reconstruct the original PIE word(if there indeed was one) Well, they look at the particles of the word which are most common.

Here the first sound is e sound which is most common, so this is posited to be the first letter

e( Old English, Gothic, Celtic)

The second sound is posited to be the k sound, because it occurs in yakwe, ech, eq(Tocharian, Celtic)

The third sound is posited to be w sound because it occurs in yakwe, equus, asuwa(Tocharan, Latin, Hittie)

The fourth sound is os, because it occurs in hippos, equus(Greek, Latin)

And we end up with : ekwos as the original PIE word for horse.

However, the first letter also could have been an a, but apparently there is a law against this an a sound can never become an e, but an e can become an a.

ashva(Sanskrit)
aspa(Avestan)
asva(Lithuanian)
ashuwa(Hittie)

More examples:

Old English: wulf
Gothic wulfs
Latin lupus
Ancient Greek lúkos
Sanskrit vŕ̥kaḥ
Avestan vǝhrka
Old Church Slavic vlĭkŭ
Lithunian: vilkas "wolf"
Old Irish olc
Tocharian walkwe "wolf"
Hittie ulippana "wolf"

Again the same logic applies, the most frequent sound is posited is constructed as the PIE word

First sound: w (Old English, Gothic, Tocharian)
second sound:l (Old English, Gothic, Old Irish, Tocharian, Hittie, Lithuanian)
third sound: k^w(Tocharian, Lituanian, OSC)
Third sound: os(Ancient Greek, Lithanian, Latin)

To get PIE word wl̥kʷos

Again we find the oldest languages are similar to Sanskrit and Aveta:

Sanskrit vŕ̥kaḥ
Avestan vǝhrka
OCS vlĭkŭ
Lith vilkas

Yet the first letter is w and not v

Some more examples:

*weid- "to know"
Old English wit
Gothic witan "to know"
Ancient Greek: oĩd
Sanskrit vetti, vēdate perf. véda "I know"
Av perf. vaēδa "I know", vīdarǝ "they know"
OCS věmĭ (věděti) "to know
Lith vaistas "medicine", vyda "he sees, knows"
OIr find
Tocharan B ūwe "learned" < PToch *wäwen- < *wid-wo-

The first sound is poisted to be w(Old English, Gothic, Tocharian)
The second sound is ei(Lithuanian, Avestan)
Third sound is d(OCS, Sanskrit, Old English(t becomes d)

So this is the illustration of the great scientific method Copernicus was talking about -- although no real scientist would take this seriously. This is actually similar to the kind of derivation logic that Aristotle and early medieval scientists were doing, to attempt to derive empirical truths from existing truths. What the scientific revolution showed us, that you can only know a truth through empirically testing it. However, we cannot test this reconstruction ---- because there no original PIE speakers around that can confirm it or disconfirm it.

In other words this is simply guessing. I will want to point out some observations and assumptions

Note how they have a preference to choose the sounds in Western European languages, to make PIE sound more European, though I have shown in several cases that the sounds could have been from Indo-Iran as well.

The assumptions are simplistic Just because a sound is more frequently shared does not mean it was the original sound. If you consider a mutation in the original sound happens, and then that mutation is shared by most of the new members, then the assumption is refuted that just because it is the most frequent sound it was the original sound.

Applying laws to change sound that they can only go one way and not another sounds presumptuous. This makes the arrogant claim that they understood exactly why a language changes over time, but as language is a living and organic thing, there could be various reasons why sounds change. Just take how English is spoken in different parts of the worlds, certain sounds have already changed. How it is spoken in Jamaica and China is different.


This is pseudoscience basically.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
It is not necessary that every one would agree to your contention that Rama avatara happened around 7,000 BC and the Krishna avatar around 3,000 BC. People question even the historicity of Buddha and Jesus, what to talk of Rama and Krishna, or of Apollo and Dionysus!

Wow, now buddha's historicity is now being questioned. Then why not question the historicity of the aryans as well.

Let us not be selective over here, on account of our whims and fancies. Lets reject them all.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Ah, he was trying to humor you. Yes, Aryan heritage was saved in India because it became one with Hinduism. Equivalent of Vedic mythology are found all over Eurasia.

Nope my friend, the Lithuanians really do have a strong belief they migrated from India. It is also true out of all European languages, Lithuanian is the closest to Sanskrit(It retains 7 of 8 cases, and most of the words are identical to Sanskrit) See:

How are the Indian language Sanskrit and Lithuanian closely related?

To cut this long story short, I would just provide two eminent quotes. First,“Anyone who wants to hear the old Indo-European should go and listen to a Lithuanian farmer,” said a renowned French linguist Antoine Meillet in the end of the 19th century. And the second,“The nearest approach to Sanskrit in Europe is made by the Lithuanian language,” by Jawaharlal Nehru in his landmark book “The Discovery of India.” The linguistic proximity of Sanskrit and Lithuanian is a well-established fact.

In my pocket, I already have a list of more than 50 words which I have gathered from my daily encounters with Indians. For example: dev – dievas (god), agni – ugnis (fire), sapnā – sapnas (dream), śakha – šaka (branch), rath – ratai (chariot) and many others. These words come from different walks of life, and cover various subjects from religion and abstract things to numbers and animals and household items. And take note that we only speak of the recognizable words in modern Hindi! The comparative analysis of Lithuanian and Classical Sanskrit would produce a much longer list of commonalities, and not only in vocabularies but also in grammatical structures. In fact, the Lithuanian Language Institute is already working on a small dictionary which would reveal the striking resemblance of the two languages.

The nearest approach to Sanskrit in Europe is Lithuanian - Governance Today

And

Since the 19th century, when the similarity between Lithuanian and Sanskrit was discovered, Lithuanians have taken a particular pride in their mother tongue as the oldest living Indo-European language. To this day, to some Lithuanians their understanding of their nationality is based on their linguistic identity. It is no surprise then that they proudly quote the French linguist Antoine Meillet, who said, that anyone who wanted to hear old Indo-European should go and listen to a Lithuanian farmer. The 19th century maxim - the older the language the better - is still alive in Lithuania.​



Professor Shashiprabha Kumar, and her amazing team of specialists at the Centre for Sanskrit Studies at the Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, is convinced that there is a very strong connection between Old Sanskrit and Lithuanian

It is a common belief that there is a close similarity between the Lithuanian and Sanskrit languages; Lithuanian being the European language grammatically closest to Sanskrit. It is not difficult to imagine the surprise of the scholarly world when they learned that even in their time somewhere on the Nemunas River lived a people who spoke a language as archaic in many of its forms as Sanskrit itself. Although it was not exactly true that a professor of Sanskrit could talk to Lithuanian farmers in their language, coincidences between these two languages are truly amazing, for example:

SON: Sanskrit sunus - Lithuanian sunus

SHEEP: Sanskrit avis - Lithuanian avis

SOLE: Sanskrit padas - Lithuanian padas

MAN: Sanskrit viras - Lithuanian vyras

SMOKE: Sanskrit dhumas - Lithuanian dumas

These Lihuanian words have not changed their forms for the last five thousand years.

The relationship between Sanskrit and Lithuanian goes even deeper. Take, for example, the Lithuanian word 'daina' that usually is translated as 'song'. The word actually comes from an Indo-European root, meaning ‘to think, to remember, to ponder over’. This root is found in Sanskrit as dhi and dhya. The word also occurs in the Rigveda (ancient Indian sacred collection of Vedic Sanskrit hymns) in the sense of ‘speech reflecting the inner thoughts of man’.

Apart from its Indo-European background as word and term, the ‘daina’ incorporates the idea of the Sun-Goddess who was married to the Moon-God, reminiscent of goddess Surya in the Rigveda.

http://vilnews.com/2011-04-incredible-indian-lithuanian-relations-2

Hence, you can see it is consistent with the OIT theory of a movement from out of India through Persia through Eastern Europe into Western Europe. The closest language to Sanskrit is Avestan, which retains all 8 cases and it is also retains the same place names Hapta-Hindu, Haptavati and retains the same Gods and the same fire sacrifice rituals the second closest is Lithuanian which retains 7 cases, retains the river names, the Gods and the fire sacrifice ritual and the third closest is Hittie which retains 6 cases, some of the God names Indra, but loses place names. The least closest is Celtic and Greek which retains only 4-5 cases and lose much of the original mythology.

There is no inferiority complex. I am calling a spade a spade. Puranas are concoctions and exaggerations, albeit for a different purpose and not history. Same with Herodotus. It is ignorance to take them as actual history. Puranas are not 7,000 year old. To say that is a bit schyzophrenic.

To be honest, I think you do a little. Of all people on this forum, the one here dutifully defending a colonial racist theory AMT which most Indians today oppose, is another Indian. Not are you only doing that, you are also piping in on behalf of other Western supporters of AMT to say "He is busy right now" like a sepoy.

Your point on the Puranas smacks of the same kind of colonial attitudes. Why are they not history? Is it because they contain mythology too? Well so does Herodotus and Megesthenes and other Greek historians e.g. Alexander born of god Zeus. You say that is not history either. Then you are obviously ignorant that Western scholarship take them to be real history and Herodotus is considered the first historian. Herodotus accounts of the Persian wars are taken to be real. Astronomical dating based on Herodotus's accounts are used to fix the date of Greek history.

You are obviously ignorant that the Puranas are also used for history of India, otherwise how would we know about Chandragupta Mauraya, Asoka, Chandragupta Gupta etc? The Puranas were taken as real history by Western scholars for the following periods:

Shishunaga dynasty
Nandas
Maurya dynasty
Shunga and Kanau dynasty
Andhra dynasty

But as I described earlier in this thread the dates for each dynasty were shortened to bring it in line with the biblical chronology. Even after shortening, they found that the other dynasties before Shishunaga, Pradyota and Brihadratha still went back to 2000BCE --- so they decided they must be mythical, because at the time Jones did not believe Indian civilisation went back further than 1500BCE. The IVC had not yet been discovered.

So they shortened the duration of each king in the dynasty to a ridiculous number, about 1-5 years each to bring it in line. The actual duration which are reasonable were 20-30 years per king.

Now we have discovered through archaeological excavations that just as the Puranas said there was continuous urban settlements in India going back to 7000 years and there is absolutely no discontinuity. In other words, the Puranas were right.

I don't think you understand this is racism. They have rejected all our records out of hand, accused us of lying and being deceitful to make ourselves look ancient and great, and forced us to accept their biblical-compatible chronology. As a result of which they have produced massive inconsistencies in our ancient history e.g. We record Shankarcharya as 500BCE, they say 700CE. We record Chandragupta Mauraya as 1500BCE, they record him as 300BCE.

You also seem to be ignorant Puranas are divided usually into 5 sections that deal with History of the cosmos, history of of Manvantaras, supernatural history and another area that deals with ordinary earth history. The earth history is not mixed with mythology.


Cont.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
If you have a reference for these, kindly let me know so that I can satisfy myself.

I have read it in the Adi parva in the Mahabharata. It is a massive text, so bear with me for an exact reference. Meanwhile, take a look at this:

In the Mahabharata, some Mleccha warriors are described as having "heads completely shaved or half-shaved or covered with matted locks, [as being] impure in habits, and of crooked faces and noses[29] They are "dwellers of hills" and "denizens of mountain-caves. Mlecchas were born of the cow (belonging to Vasishtha), of fierce eyes, accomplished in smiting looking like messengers of Death, and all conversant with the deceptive powers of the Asuras".[30]​

Swami Parmeshwaranand states the mleccha tribe was born from the tail of the celestial cow Nandini, kept by Vashishta for sacrificial purposes when there was a fight between Vishvamitra and Vasistha. The Mahabharata gives the following information regarding them:

Mleccha who sprang up from the tail of the celestial cow Nandini sent the army of Viswamitra flying in terror.
Bhagadatta was the king of mlecchas.
Pandavas, like Bhima, Nakula and Sahadeva once defeated them.
Karna during his world campaign conquered many mleccha countries.​

The Mlecchas are listed by name in the Mahabharata and Puranas: Among the tribes termed Mlechcha were Sakas, Huns, Yavanas, Kambojas, Pahlavas, Bahlikas and Rishikas.

Thus we have clear records of how we conquered parts of Indo-Europe and hence why you find our language and culture across there. This is what is ironic, while there is absolutely no claim by any other IE tribe of ever conquering India, we retain our memory of conquering them. It is supported by archaeological evidence how there is an Indo-Aryan kingdom as far as Mesopotamia.

The footprint of Indian civilisation is found all over the world -- because we colonised and conquered many parts of the world in ancient times --- because we were the most powerful and advanced civilisation at the time. Early European indologists and thinkers had all realised this, and hence why there was an initial phase of Indophilia, with Europeans believing India was the original homeland of Aryans etc. However the mainstream colonial scholars, usually of a Christian bent, could not admit this because it was embarrassing and hence they fabricated AIT(to now become AMT)

But as I keep saying if this is all about power -- then the West is no longer the dominant power -- we Indians will sort this all out by the end of the century. It is not a case of nationalism, but a case of setting the record straight. Some of us seem to be still having a colonial hangover, but a lot of Indians are notw rejecting colonial myths.



That is right. 'Ayas' was Copper and Bronze and at a later stage even Iron. But in an earlier age it as used for stone as well.

तस्मै तवस्यमनु दायि सत्रेन्द्राय देवेभिरर्णसातौ l
प्रति यदस्य वज्रं बाह्वोर्धुर्हत्वी दस्यून पुर आयसीर्नि तारीत ll

tasmai tavasyamanu dāyi satrendrāya devebhirarṇasātau l
prati yadasya vajraṃ bāhvordhurhatvī dasyūn pura āyasīrni tārīt ll
RV II.20 verse 8

Now forts cannot be made of metals, therefore 'Ayas' must mean stone also.
Wow, now buddha's historicity is now being questioned. Then why not question the historicity of the aryans as well.

Let us not be selective over here, on account of our whims and fancies. Lets reject them all.


No, it is you who are being selective. Earlier you were arguing how certain flora fauna in the Rig Veda is is not describing India, and here you reject an obvious omission. The Rig Veda does not know of iron, even though the AMT place it in the iron age of India. We know from the latest research iron working started in 2000BCE and fully established by 1500BCE. So why does the Rig Veda not mention them?

The answer is simple the Rig Veda was composed in the bronze age -- or even if you like the stone age but definitely not the iron age i.e., definitely not after 2000BCE.

Just about every evidence we look at which is empirical and scientific places the Rig Veda before 4000BCE.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Wow, now buddha's historicity is now being questioned. Then why not question the historicity of the aryans as well.

Let us not be selective over here, on account of our whims and fancies. Lets reject them all.

Our dear and respected Aupmanyav is more skeptical of the history as recorded by our ancestors, as he is of the reconstructed history by colonial Europeans which was used to justify colonial occupation of India and the inferiority of the Indian race.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Hence, you can see it is consistent with the OIT theory of a movement from out of India ... you are not only doing that, you are also piping in on behalf of other Western supporters of AMT to say "He is busy right now" like a sepoy.
No, I do not see it that way. To me it means that Indian and Lithuanians are equi-distant from their original homeland.

I am a retired person and I have ample time on my hands. Other people may not have all that time.
Our dear and respected Aupmanyav is more skeptical of the history as recorded by our ancestors, as he is of the reconstructed history by colonial Europeans which was used to justify colonial occupation of India and the inferiority of the Indian race.
Our ancestors wrote puranas not for history, that was not their concern. They wrote them to advocate 'dharma' (how to have a peaceful and prosperous life and society). You are considering them as history course books which they are not. I am not a chauvinist Hindu.
The Rig Veda does not know of iron, even though the AMT place it in the iron age of India.

Just about every evidence we look at which is empirical and scientific places the Rig Veda before 4000BCE.
RigVeda is older than bronze or copper. I believe RigVeda hymns were composed from the time of the last glacial (10,000 BC or even before it) to something like 1,500 BC. It was not composed all at one time. That is why I am saying that 'Ayas' in RigVeda means stone. Initially it was the lore of hunter gatherers who had to move south because of glaciation. In that way, I am more Hindu than you.
 
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Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
This is the typical arrogant reply by an AMT proponent, "Oh you do not understand our great science of Historical linguistics, you have not studied it, it is beyond your ability to understand" Lets put that rhetoric aside, because we will not get anywhere. I have not studied linguistics, but you have. So explain to me how it works. As it is purely on the basis of linguistics you are making a claim to my "house" (See my previous post) so therefore I want you make a strong case for it. How do you just sitting down with some language data, come to definitive 100% incontrovertible conclusions of what date it emerged, where it emerged and in which direction it travelled?

Regarding your claim that comparative linguistics is a science. Well, you obviously are not aware of the problem of demarcation in philosophy of science, how do we differentiate a good science from a bad science. There is still a lot of scientists in the hard sciences that do not consider soft sciences like Sociology, Anthropology etc sciences. So not all sciences are equal. We give greater confidence to the physical sciences like chemistry, biology and physics because they are based on hard empirical data which is measured to precision e.g. length, width, height, charge, temperature. The theories are tested rigorously by peer review. We also make progress in our understanding, by allowing for the possibility that a theory can be falsified when new empirical data is found, and the history of science indeed shows old theories do get falsified.

But what you are claiming for linguistics(without actually showing anything for it) is not science, but mathematics. You claim to have some kind of method by which you can derive from just language data exactly what date it emerged, how it emerged, what place it emerged and what direction it went. Unlike an actual scientist, you are not even allowing for the possibility that you could be wrong, hence you are treating your method like mathematics. How do we even test your theory, as there is no possibility for falsification? Re:

Did you read anything I wrote. Where did I make such a claim about German????

You didn't, but your "science" does. Your science says German emerged in 2200BCE, but the very earliest documented evidence we have of it is 200CE. Now how do we test your claim? If you don't actually have evidence for German being spoken in 2200BCE, how can you say 100% definitely it was?

Show me how you work it out. Enlighten us all Indians on how you get from point A to point B and how you can be 100% sure(because even physicists never claim 100% certainty)
First of all, I apologize for not getting back immediately, but I am busy with other priorities. Secondly, I don't wish to engage you in a debate over what a science is or whether linguistics ought to be considered a science. Let's just call it a "rigorous academic discipline" or something of that sort. OK? Thirdly, my "science" does not make such a claim about German. You may have read somewhere that proto-Germanic is estimated to have existed as a coherent speech community at about that time, but it is usually thought to have emerged quite a bit later--roughly 500 BCE--as a fairly homogeneous community. Estimates of that sort are really just educated guesses, since we are dealing with an unrecorded reconstructed language. The earliest attested Germanic texts date back only to the fourth century CE, and those were in Gothic, which represented an East Germanic branch. German is a West Germanic language.

Seriously, I cannot spend the time to try to give you an education in linguistics, but I applaud your efforts to try to learn more about it online. The Internet will not supply you with an adequate education, but you can learn something about how comparative reconstructions were assembled historically. Nowadays, we make better guesses, because we have more sophisticated knowledge of how language change progresses and what a plausible linguistic system is like, but that is something you won't learn much about on the Internet.

This is why I said it was not about race. There are Indians who support AMT and non-Indians who support OIT. It was you who initially racialised the issue by saying outside of India nobody considers it controversial. Obviously, now you admit, that even outside of India there are people who do oppose it.
Nonsense. There are very few who favor OIT outside of India, because there is no political movement to prop it up. That is not to say that there are no polemics going on outside of India, but proponents of OIT are not taken seriously by the mainstream, because they do not build a plausible case for it. There is no linguistic evidence of an Indian substrate in other Indo-European languages, no common vocabulary that could be tied back to the environment on the Indian subcontinent. Almost of the arguments for OIT rely on quibbles with arguments against it.

In fact, what you need to do is argue about the original homeland of proto-Indo-Iranian, which most believe is compatible with archaeological evidence from a Siberian location--the Andronovo Archaeological Horizon[/ur and the Bactria-Margiana Complex. That is where the use of horse-drawn war chariots with spoked wheels seems to have come from. The IVC had animal-drawn carts, but there is scant evidence that they used spoked wheels or horses. Rather, they seem to have had primarily ox carts with unspoked wheels. The Iranian and Indic branches split off from each other, and the ancestor language likely came from those cultures that we have arachaeological evidence of. Indeed, most of that information only really became available to us from Soviet sources after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Your other problem is to explain why does your entire theory rest on linguistics alone and why is it contradicted by the other sciences? You see physics does not contradict chemistry and chemistry does not contradict biology. Sciences compliment one another. In your case though every other science(as I showed earlier) contradicts your conclusions e.g. Geology, which shows the Saraswati river was thriving in 4000BCE and prior and the Rig Veda was composed at a time when it was thriving. Or metallurgy which shows that the Rig Veda was composed at a time when iron working had not been discovered.

I charge you linguists of being arrogant, because you reject what every other science is saying, while claiming yours to be most supreme.
Again, let's drop the ad hominems and try to look at facts. The argument is primarily linguistic, because we are only talking about the origin of languages. Anthropological, especially archaeological, evidence is expected to help us understand how Indo-European languages came to be distributed, and it largely does. There is no "science" that "contradicts" the reconstruction of the Proto-Indo-European vocabulary or that explains the lack of any India-specific substrate in proto-Indo-European vocabulary. The burden of proof now is really on proponents of OIT to come up with a plausible explanation of that.

You obviously have no idea of the kind of statements the founders of this theory made about Indians. It was not merely a linguistic theory, it was used to justify colonial occupation of India and later it went on to inspire Nazism.
Charging people one disagrees with as racists and trying to associate them with Nazis is a fallacious ad hominem that has nothing to do with the discussion. Please drop the smear tactics. Max Muller himself opposed using his theory to support racism, but it would not matter even if he were a flaming racist. He is right or wrong on the merits of his argument, not the merits of his attitudes towards racial and colonial politics.

Please educate us how your great science works then. I am just hearing a lot of rhetoric. Show me how your method how you work out getting from point A to point B.
I believe that I have been fairly clear on that, but on a superficial level that is appropriate to this venue. I cannot take the time to educate you about the finer details of the argument--e.g. what makes a reconstructed form or linguistic system plausible, given what we know about the nature of human language today. The comparative and internal methods of language reconstruction have been validated in the best way. Saussure's predictions about missing sounds, the so-called laryngeal hypothesis, predicted that we might discover records of a language with such sounds. That came true when cuneiform records from Hittite archives were finally deciphered.

I think you missed the point. I said that wolves are not found in England either, but you still find wolves mentioned copiously in English literature, Polar bears are not found in Africa, but I am sure in African literature you will find references to polar bears. Hence, it is a weak argument to say just because a people mention an animal that is not native to their environment, therefore they came from somewhere else.
I accept that you believe there are references to polar bears in African literature but not that you have any good reason to hold that belief. If the argument were based on just a handful of words then the argument for a PIE homeland would be weak. Hundreds of such references in reconstructed PIE vocabulary tend to make a much more compelling argument for the Kurgan theory of a PIE homeland. Worse yet, no similar case can be made for OIT. Archaeological evidence is a better match for proto-Indo-Iranian languages coming from the Andronovo and BMAC cultures of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan, not northern India.

Also, if your argue this way, then we can argue the composers of the Rig Veda must have originated in a environment where there was a ocean(not mountains) because they mention the word "Samundra" meaning ocean. That the Rig Veda was composed in its entirety in India is more or less accepted by all scholars now.
I don't oppose the idea that the Rig Veda was composed in India. Why should I? Vedic Sanskrit dates back to around 1500 BC, when Indo-European had already established itself in India. Vedic Sanskrit records are not even the oldest written records we possess of an Indo-European language. Hittite records are believed to be somewhat older.

Anyway why are you being selective --- why do you keep ignoring that the Rig Veda mentions an extant river Saraswati as thriving and explicitly states all its settlements are alongside it, when that was river was thriving sometime before 4000BCE had long dried up by 1900BCE.

Why do you ignore the Rig Veda does not mention iron?

Why do you ignore the Rig Veda does not mention urban settlements?
Because the Rig Veda is not as old as you seem to think it is. Vedic Sanskrit was one of many descendants of proto-Indic, which descended from proto-Indo-Iranian, which descended from proto-Indo-European.
 
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Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
No, I do not see it that way. To me it means that Indian and Lithuanians are equi-distant from their original homeland.

Irrespective, it is consistent with OIT. We would expect to see if there was a movement from India into Western Europe, that most of the original language and religion would be retained by the Persians, the second most by the Balto-Slavic group, third most by Hittites and by the least by the Latin, Hellenic Gothic and Celtic. That is exactly what we see.

So you can see(actually probably can't see or refuse to see) the linguistic data leads to inconclusive conclusions. Depending on which aspect you look at it, you can come to differing conclusions. This is why it cannot be used as the sole means, it must be supported by other evidence. OIT, rests not just in linguistic evidence, but evidence from all fields of sciences. This is why it is solid scientific theory.

AMT rests purely on linguistic speculation. Even Copernicus has just now admitted that. There is not a single iota of empirical evidence.

I think you already know my views on the Puranas, they are not exactly glowing are they? However, as I have already told you, the Puranas do not mix Earth history with supernatural history. The history they describe of geneology of kings is real history, and it is through that we know of Chandragupta Mauraya, Asoka, Gupta empire etc. So stop being selective.

The word Purana means "Ancient" the Puranas are compendiums which contain the history, legends, traditions and philosophies of India. There is not one Purana, but several dozens of puranas composed by several authors across the centuries. There are not just Hindu Puranas, but Jain Puranas and Buddhist Puranas. There are not just Puranas, but other literature like the Rajantaragini which only records the history of Kings that ruled Kashmir --- they all give a consistent history of India. In much the same way we get a consistent history of Greece from Greek literature, or of England from English literature.

This is why I am telling you it is pure racism that our records have been thrown in the bin. I have explained already at great length why our records were thrown in the bin, because they did not conform with the chronology of the bible.

Now, that we have confirmed archeaological evidence of what the Puranas say, we can take them seriously. We have confirmed evidence now of Mahabharata war(via astronoy) we have confirmed evidence of drying up of Saraswati(via geology) we have confirmed evidence of continuous urban settlements going back 7000 years(via archeaology) and we have confirmed evidence of the sinking of Dwaraka(via marine archelaology)

Sir, our Itihas-Purana is correct. It is them(Western scholars) who are wrong, who have distorted and reconstructed our history to suit their ends-- I even have quotes of the early Indologists saying that is what they are doing to do. The fact, is now that scientists are involved in researching Indian history, how long will their lies endure? Again, mark my words, it won't survive the end of this century.

RigVeda is older than bronze or copper. I believe RigVeda hymns were composed from the time of the last glacial (10,000 BC or even before it) to something like 1,500 BC. It was not composed all at one time. That is why I am saying that 'Ayas' in RigVeda means stone. Initially it was the lore of hunter gatherers who had to move south because of glaciation. In that way, I am more Hindu than you.

Sure, I can go with that. This is why I said your paricipation in the AMT debate is pointless, because you are arguing Tilak's theory not AMT. So I don't get why you are here loyally defending AMT and its proponents? They do not accept Rig Veda was around in 10,000BCE. Copernicus has just said it explicitly above.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Nowadays, we make better guesses, because we have more sophisticated knowledge of how language change progresses and what a plausible linguistic system is like, but that is something you won't learn much about on the Internet.

Excellent, thank you for admitting you are guessing and retracting your statement that historical linguistics is a science.

I must say, though I thank you for taking out time from your busy schedule to reply, your post was very disappointing though. I was expecting you to show me your method on how you work
out the history of a language and how you can be 100% sure that your PIE reconstruction is correct and that Sanskrit is not the original language.

As expected, you just fell back on dogma "We, the consensus, of linguists" However, you vindicated my points which I have made in this thread:

1)AMT is purely a linguistic theory and does not rely on a single iota of empircal evidence from any other field of science
2) AMT is purely based on linguistic guessing
3) AMT rests purely on dogma

Hence, I will say this much "If you can't prove it, it didn't happen" Anyway I think I have already done some of the work for you by showing exactly how you reconstruct a PIE word. You are too right, you guess at the sounds.

Sorry man, this is out and out pseudoscience.

By the way we have found evidence of both horses and spoked wheels in IVC. I will let you do the research.
 
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Kirran

Premium Member
Why would AMT utilise any evidence from non-linguistic fields, when it's about linguistics? Not to mention parallel cultural similarities.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Why would AMT utilise any evidence from non-linguistic fields, when it's about linguistics? Not to mention parallel cultural similarities.

That is because it is not purely a linguistic theory at all, it is a racist historical and political theory masquerading around as a linguistic theory. A purely linguistic theory makes claims about language, for example Chomsky's theories. AMT, meaning Aryan migration theory is making a historical claim that there was this group of PIE people, a branch of this that migrated into India in 1500BCE and then completely took over it. It carries a HUGE burden of proof, because it falsifies the entire history of India maintained for over 5000 years. Therefore, of course we demand that it is supported by hard factual empirical evidence.

As I showed in my analogy earlier of somebody coming to my house claiming it belongs to them. I am not going to let them in until they prove it. As the above discussion shows, even Copernicus admits AMT is based on guessing. I have shown this myself by showing how the PIE word is reconstructed. Now that it is reconstructed, how do we test it is in fact correct? You can't, because you can't falsify it. Hence, why it is a pseudoscience, it is making factual claims about actual reality without offering any proof for it.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Why would AMT utilise any evidence from non-linguistic fields, when it's about linguistics? Not to mention parallel cultural similarities.
There was a large scale migration from Central Asia Yamnaya-Kurgan culture to Europe 6000 years ago. There is some (heavily disputed) evidence that Indo-European speech entered Europe at that time. It would be interesting to compare the DNA of ancient Yamnaya people with Iran and India to see what's the deal, but not sure that anybody has done that. Meanwhile reading both papers would be illuminating..
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015...land-may-have-been-steppes-ukraine-and-russia

This blog here seems to be about linguistics
Ancient DNA and the Indo-European Question

I have no specialization here, so until there is a consensus that lasts a decade (i.e. 2 phD thesis from every lab with an axe to grind), I am going to be agnostic in accordance with scientific principles. :)

I find it prima-facie implausible that the Indo-European language family originated in India given the distribution. The language moved all the way to England and iceland and could not reach South India?? Migration or diffusion must be involved, but may have occured before Indus Valley came up. Maybe people really liked the language, like they like iphone today. Who knows?
http://www.worldgeodatasets.com/files/5613/1766/6886/Huffman-IndoEuropean_Langs-wlms.pdf
 
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Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Why would AMT utilise any evidence from non-linguistic fields, when it's about linguistics? Not to mention parallel cultural similarities.
Linguistic scholarship can only establish a common vocabulary for Proto-Indo-European, Proto-Indo-Iranian, and Proto-Indic. It is not synonymous with AMT (or the discredited AIT), as Spirit Warrior seems to think. The question of how Indo-Aryan languages came to spread from the north and west into northern India necessarily depends on archaeological and other evidence that can match what we know to be the common word stock with the environment and human artifacts that date back to the era when we thought PIE existed as a coherent speech community.

Just to add a bit more complexity to the question, I should add that there was plenty of trade between cultures in that region of the world, so it would not be surprising if one were to find, say, a few artifacts from the IVC that were imported or modeled after items that were widespread in the Andronovo region. There might, for example, be a few depictions of spoke-wheeled chariots drawn by horses, although I don't think that any have been found which are not ambiguous. What we discover from archaeology is that the IVC culture made more widespread use of carts with unspoked wheels that were drawn by water buffalo.

Another issue to bear in mind is that comparative reconstruction is based on the so-called "tree theory" of language change, where linguistic communities are supposed to break apart cleanly and not have subsequent influence on each other. What we find in practice with that language change spreads in waves and even languages that are not mutually intelligible can harmonize changes. This is called the "wave theory" of language change. So that tends to muddle the results that we get from linguistic reconstruction. Sometimes words in a cognate set are loan words from neighboring dialects or languages. Sometimes pidgins and creoles arise that are hybrid trade languages but are nevertheless based on a singular language. Hence, the period of European and American colonialism gave rise to English, French, and Spanish-based creoles. (A creole is a trade language that gets learned by children and can even emerge as a full-fledged language in its own right. Some linguists have speculated that Proto-Indo-European may have started out as a creole.)
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Linguistic scholarship can only establish a common vocabulary for Proto-Indo-European, Proto-Indo-Iranian, and Proto-Indic. I

Sure, but how do you test that your reconstructions are correct? Come on you know in science you can't just have a theory by itself, it needs to be tested against real data.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Excellent, thank you for admitting you are guessing and retracting your statement that historical linguistics is a science.
I did no such thing. I merely said that it was irrelevant to the discussion we are having. I don't care whether or not you regard it as a science. It is a very diverse field of study that uses the scientific method to formulate linguistic theories where appropriate. Historical reconstruction has been validated in the same way that scientific theories normally are--through the formulation of testable hypotheses.

I must say, though I thank you for taking out time from your busy schedule to reply, your post was very disappointing though. I was expecting you to show me your method on how you work out the history of a language and how you can be 100% sure that your PIE reconstruction is correct and that Sanskrit is not the original language.
Sorry, but do you believe that modern languages are derived from Vedic Sanskrit? That is preposterous. The Prakrits were not derived from Sanskrit, which became a liturgical language. In any case, there is overwhelming evidence of Indo-European languages that were contemporary with Vedic Sanskrit. Where did you come up with this nonsense?

As expected, you just fell back on dogma "We, the consensus, of linguists" However, you vindicated my points which I have made in this thread:

1)AMT is purely a linguistic theory and does not rely on a single iota of empircal evidence from any other field of science
2) AMT is purely based on linguistic guessing
3) AMT rests purely on dogma
Not even close. AMT is not a linguistic theory. It is a theory about how IE languages spread to India. If we discovered that we arrived in flying saucers, that would not change the linguistic conclusions. Linguistic scholarship is not "guessing", but linguists do make educated guesses, just as other scholars and scientists do. Nor is it a dogma like Hinduism or Communism.

Hence, I will say this much "If you can't prove it, it didn't happen" Anyway I think I have already done some of the work for you by showing exactly how you reconstruct a PIE word. You are too right, you guess at the sounds.
No, that isn't how it works. We know that phonemic systems do not evolve randomly. There are fairly solid generalizations that you can make about historical pronunciations. You wouldn't know this, because you have admittedly not studied linguistics. You are coming at this as a total amateur, and you seem to be suffering from a severe case of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

By the way we have found evidence of both horses and spoked wheels in IVC. I will let you do the research.
That would be helpful. What I have read about such claims is that they are ambiguous and wildly hyped by those who push OIT.
 
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