• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Indus Valley Civilization

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Somehow saying this means I am assuming that "Aryans " arrived. Such, is not the case. I am only trying to look at what we know. It seems to me that we know at least 1500bce. Could it have been 4000bce? Absolutely. Could it have been 7000bce? Sure. But we know at least 1500bce.

Sigh. In Nyaya we call this an "occasion for rebuke" You are coming across as a troll to me now so I am bowing out. I have repeatedly asked you to justify this date of 1500-1200BCE by providing evidence. Now in my lastest post I have pointed out all the inconsistencies and absurdities it creates to say the Rig Veda was composed in 1500-2300BCE, and why a bronze age date 4000BCE and prior is the best explanation. Once again, you have ignored everything I said, to just repeat 1500BCE again. I even explicitly asked you in my previous post to forget you ever heard this date in the first place, and arrive back at the date stating your method. You have done no such thing you have just repeated the date again, knowing fully well I have challenged the very premise of the date itself. This is basically known as a fallacy argumentum ad nauseum

argumentum ad nauseam

(also known as: argument from nagging, proof by assertion)

Description: Repeating an argument or a premise over and over again in place of better supporting evidence.​

Argument by Repetition
 
Last edited:

Curious George

Veteran Member
I even explicitly asked you in my previous post to forget you ever heard this date in the first place, and arrive back at the date stating your method.

Sanskritic like language was found in 19th century bce. Sanskrit was found in 14th century bce. No written sanskrit as found in the rigveda is found prior to 1500bce. This is my evidence that sanskrit existed in at least 1500bce. It is really that simple. We have a language that appears in at least 1500bce and related languages that appear roughly around that time period. It seems therefore, that saying at least 1500bce is a true statement.
 

Spirit_Warrior

Active Member
Sanskritic like language was found in 19th century bce. Sanskrit was found in 14th century bce. No written sanskrit as found in the rigveda is found prior to 1500bce. This is my evidence that sanskrit existed in at least 1500bce. It is really that simple. We have a language that appears in at least 1500bce and related languages that appear roughly around that time period. It seems therefore, that saying at least 1500bce is a true statement.

If this is the best you got, then I have already refuted this. Linguistics does not work like that. We have no written or even oral records for most of the IE languages at which we posit dates of emergence for(like German 2CE, emerged 3200BCE) Science does not have rely on only empirical evidence, rather it relies on inference from available empirical evidence and empirical evidence can later be found to corroborate the inference. The earliest written evidence we have of Tamil is about 200BCE, does that mean Tamil did not exist before then?
Languages come first, writing comes later.

Anyway if you have nothing better than this, I can only thank you for the debate and say my farewell.
 
Last edited:

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
See this post again where I show you exactly what we find in the IVC which is consistent with later Hinduism in the post-vedic period Indus Valley Civilization


If virtually every feature of post-Vedic Hinduism is already found in the IVC, what is the need to posit that Indo -Aryans brought anything to India? It is a superfluous assumption.

There is clearly one ONLY reason why linguists are cocksure that Aryans brought in Vedic religion and Sanskrit into India, it is simply based on Jones observation that Sanskrit is an IE language. Sure, that is true, but how do you get from that the direction of migration from West to East? Why can't it be from East to West? Well the answer is obvious racism. How can Europeans owe their languages and ancestry to a heathen dark-skinned and conquered people.

As I told you earlier you cannot get dates or direction of migration of people just from linguistic data. However, my challenge is still open for any linguists reading this debate to show how it is done.
The evidence that the Indo-European homeland was outside of northern India is not really controversial outside of India. It is based on scientific methods of linguistic reconstructions that date back to the 19th century, which was well after William Jones made his initial observation that Sanskrit and some other European languages had a common ancestor. He did not actually have a validated method for proving historical reconstruction, but his argument was sufficient to make the case for a historical Proto-Indo-European ancestor language. The problem with the India-origin theory is that the common reconstructed vocabulary shows flora, fauna, and cultural similarities that were not consistent with the environment of northern India at the time when PIE was projected to have existed as a single language.

Rather than to recapitulate the arguments here, I refer interested parties to the Wikipedia page on the Proto-Indo-European homeland.

The Proto-Indo-European homeland (or Indo-European homeland) is the prehistoric urheimat of the Indo-European languages — the region where their reconstructed common ancestor, the Proto-Indo-European language (PIE), was originally spoken. From this region subgroups of speakers migrated and went on to form the proto-communities of the different branches of the language family. The majority of Indo-European specialists support the Kurgan hypothesis, which puts the PIE homeland in the Pontic-Caspian steppe around 4000 BC, though critical issues remain to be clarified.

The major alternative theory is the Anatolian hypothesis, which puts it in Anatolia around 8000 BC, but has lost support due to the explanatory limitations of this theory.

Classical Sanskrit was basically a contemporary of Classical Latin and Greek. Vedic Sanskrit was part of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European, and it was related to Anatolian languages such as Hittite, which is regarded as something of a sister language to PIE.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
The evidence that the Indo-European homeland was outside of northern India is not really controversial outside of India. It is based on scientific methods of linguistic reconstructions that date back to the 19th century, which was well after William Jones made his initial observation that Sanskrit and some other European languages had a common ancestor. He did not actually have a validated method for proving historical reconstruction, but his argument was sufficient to make the case for a historical Proto-Indo-European ancestor language. The problem with the India-origin theory is that the common reconstructed vocabulary shows flora, fauna, and cultural similarities that were not consistent with the environment of northern India at the time when PIE was projected to have existed as a single language.

Rather than to recapitulate the arguments here, I refer interested parties to the Wikipedia page on the Proto-Indo-European homeland.



Classical Sanskrit was basically a contemporary of Classical Latin and Greek. Vedic Sanskrit was part of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European, and it was related to Anatolian languages such as Hittite, which is regarded as something of a sister language to PIE.

Yet Vedic Sanskrit has seems to have come from an advanced civilization. The simple truth is that three great civilizations existed at one time in the world. How can anyone suggest that one of the most advanced languages did not come from one of the most advanced civilizations. It would be like suggesting that the bikini island people's invented the nuclear bomb.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Yet Vedic Sanskrit has seems to have come from an advanced civilization. The simple truth is that three great civilizations existed at one time in the world. How can anyone suggest that one of the most advanced languages did not come from one of the most advanced civilizations. It would be like suggesting that the bikini island people's invented the nuclear bomb.
I don't know what you think an "advanced language" is. There is nothing about Sanskrit that makes it especially more advanced than any other language, let alone other Indo-European languages. In fact, most languages, with the possible exception of creoles and pidgins, are arguably equally "complex" and "advanced". The capacity for language is largely innate in human beings. There are no communities of modern human beings that lack a spoken language (except for deaf communities, which have developed an equally complex language based on gestures).

As a linguist, what I especially like about Sanskrit was that Hindu scholars developed the most advanced linguistic theories of the ancient world. Modern Western linguistic theory was really built on the foundation built by Hindu linguists, most especially Panini.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The evidence that the Indo-European homeland was outside of northern India is not really controversial outside of India. It is based on scientific methods of linguistic reconstructions that date back to the 19th century, which was well after William Jones made his initial observation that Sanskrit and some other European languages had a common ancestor. He did not actually have a validated method for proving historical reconstruction, but his argument was sufficient to make the case for a historical Proto-Indo-European ancestor language. The problem with the India-origin theory is that the common reconstructed vocabulary shows flora, fauna, and cultural similarities that were not consistent with the environment of northern India at the time when PIE was projected to have existed as a single language.

Rather than to recapitulate the arguments here, I refer interested parties to the Wikipedia page on the Proto-Indo-European homeland.

Classical Sanskrit was basically a contemporary of Classical Latin and Greek. Vedic Sanskrit was part of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European, and it was related to Anatolian languages such as Hittite, which is regarded as something of a sister language to PIE.
"The problem with the India-origin theory is that the common reconstructed vocabulary shows flora, fauna, and cultural similarities that were not consistent with the environment of northern India at the time when PIE was projected to have existed as a single language."

A good point. Please
Regards
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I don't know what you think an "advanced language" is. There is nothing about Sanskrit that makes it especially more advanced than any other language, let alone other Indo-European languages. In fact, most languages, with the possible exception of creoles and pidgins, are arguably equally "complex" and "advanced". The capacity for language is largely innate in human beings. There are no communities of modern human beings that lack a spoken language (except for deaf communities, which have developed an equally complex language based on gestures).

As a linguist, what I especially like about Sanskrit was that Hindu scholars developed the most advanced linguistic theories of the ancient world. Modern Western linguistic theory was really built on the foundation built by Hindu linguists, most especially Panini.
I would consider an advanced language one that contains the ability to describe advanced concepts. So a language that can describe math and astronomy is more advanced than a language that cannot because it is reflective of the advancement of that civilization.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I would consider an advanced language one that contains the ability to describe advanced concepts. So a language that can describe math and astronomy is more advanced than a language that cannot because it is reflective of the advancement of that civilization.
Since that ability depends on nothing more than vocabulary, and all languages can borrow vocabulary from other languages, then all languages are equally advanced in principle, by your criterion. The only thing holding back the "less advanced" languages is just some speakers adopting new words. It is not a very useful way to categorize languages.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Since that ability depends on nothing more than vocabulary, and all languages can borrow vocabulary from other languages, then all languages are equally advanced in principle, by your criterion. The only thing holding back the "less advanced" languages is just some speakers adopting new words. It is not a very useful way to categorize languages.
That seems to miss the point. From where we're these words adopted?
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
That seems to miss the point. From where we're these words adopted?
Why does that even matter? Arabic numerals helped Arabic-speaking culture develop very sophisticated mathematical theories, but those numeric symbols actually came from devanagari writing. The languages themselves are not "advanced" merely because the people who speak them happen to be academically or technologically advanced. Vocabulary is purely a matter of convention, not linguistic structure per se.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Why does that even matter? Arabic numerals helped Arabic-speaking culture develop very sophisticated mathematical theories, but those numeric symbols actually came from devanagari writing. The languages themselves are not "advanced" merely because the people who speak them happen to be academically or technologically advanced. Vocabulary is purely a matter of convention, not linguistic structure per se.
Yes, they are. According to you, languages are arguably equally complex with a couple of exceptions. So it would not make sense to speak of languages as advanced based on complexity of the language. However, it does make sense to talk about advanced civilization because of technological and informational advancement. Then operating on this premise, we can see that a language is reflective of a culture or a civilization (think Eskimo and the number of words to describe snow). Now, if a language is reflective of an advanced civilization, then we can say that the language is advanced. For its time, Vedic Sanskrit is an advanced language. It would make sense that this is reflective of an advanced civilization. From Which civilization are you suggesting this language came?
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Yes, they are. According to you, languages are arguably equally complex with a couple of exceptions. So it would not make sense to speak of languages as advanced based on complexity of the language. However, it does make sense to talk about advanced civilization because of technological and informational advancement. Then operating on this premise, we can see that a language is reflective of a culture or a civilization (think Eskimo and the number of words to describe snow). Now, if a language is reflective of an advanced civilization, then we can say that the language is advanced. For its time, Vedic Sanskrit is an advanced language. It would make sense that this is reflective of an advanced civilization. From Which civilization are you suggesting this language came?
George, please have a look at Geoff Pullum's The Great Eskimo Vocabulary Hoax. That is a rather short paper on the subject, but Geoff has also published a book with the same title. Whorf's claims about language are largely bogus. Language does not govern the way we think. The way we think governs language.

What I object to here is that you choose to call the language advanced rather than the culture. Language is nothing more than a tool for communication, and all languages are equally good for communicating complex, technical information. They all have vocabularies that grow and change over time. So, while I get the point you are trying to make, I consider it an extremely misleading way to describe languages. You might as well claim that a language is advanced on the basis of the complexity of the cuisine or dating rituals. Science and technology are properties of a culture, not its language.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
George, please have a look at Geoff Pullum's The Great Eskimo Vocabulary Hoax. That is a rather short paper on the subject, but Geoff has also published a book with the same title. Whorf's claims about language are largely bogus. Language does not govern the way we think. The way we think governs language.

What I object to here is that you choose to call the language advanced rather than the culture. Language is nothing more than a tool for communication, and all languages are equally good for communicating complex, technical information. They all have vocabularies that grow and change over time. So, while I get the point you are trying to make, I consider it an extremely misleading way to describe languages. You might as well claim that a language is advanced on the basis of the complexity of the cuisine or dating rituals. Science and technology are properties of a culture, not its language.
Yet you would agree that language reflects culture, no? And regardless of whether you object to me calling language advanced the simple matter of fact truth is that Vedic Sanskrit reflects an advanced culture. From where did that culture come?
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Yet you would agree that language reflects culture, no? And regardless of whether you object to me calling language advanced the simple matter of fact truth is that Vedic Sanskrit reflects an advanced culture. From where did that culture come?
I'm a linguist, so forgive me for getting pedantic on this point. I have no problem with calling the Vedic culture "advanced" for those times. The vocabulary contained technical jargon for complex philosophical and linguistic concepts, but that is far from saying that the language per se was any more "advanced" than languages used by cultures that lacked that jargon. Languages accommodate the needs of their speakers. We should not make the mistake that earlier language scholars made in thinking that some languages were more advanced or "civilized" than others. Sanskrit was roughly equivalent to its contemporary Indo-European sister languages, although the speakers of those languages may have lacked the same technical concepts.

Sanskrit culture was likely a blend of the imported Indo-European cultures and the native (probably Dravidian) cultures. The most likely historical reality seems to be a combination of invasions and migrations from Persian lands that took place after the collapse of the IVC.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I'm a linguist, so forgive me for getting pedantic on this point. I have no problem with calling the Vedic culture "advanced" for those times. The vocabulary contained technical jargon for complex philosophical and linguistic concepts, but that is far from saying that the language per se was any more "advanced" than languages used by cultures that lacked that jargon. Languages accommodate the needs of their speakers. We should not make the mistake that earlier language scholars made in thinking that some languages were more advanced or "civilized" than others. Sanskrit was roughly equivalent to its contemporary Indo-European sister languages, although the speakers of those languages may have lacked the same technical concepts.

Sanskrit culture was likely a blend of the imported Indo-European cultures and the native (probably Dravidian) cultures. The most likely historical reality seems to be a combination of invasions and migrations from Persian lands that took place after the collapse of the IVC.
What evidence is there for thevery historical migrations and invasions? I have seen none. Albeit, I would think it is foolish to think that no migration occurred. But you have a blend of cultures from indo european speaking regions and absolutely no evidence of an advanced civilization from which the concepts seen in Vedic Sanskrit would have likely been derived. Conversely, we see a massive cultural center in South Asia (the IVC) that would have likely produced math, science philosophy and linguistics... these are not simplistic concepts we see produced by nomadic cultures. Why would history be so starkly different if history repeats itself.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
What evidence is there for thevery historical migrations and invasions? I have seen none. Albeit, I would think it is foolish to think that no migration occurred. But you have a blend of cultures from indo european speaking regions and absolutely no evidence of an advanced civilization from which the concepts seen in Vedic Sanskrit would have likely been derived. Conversely, we see a massive cultural center in South Asia (the IVC) that would have likely produced math, science philosophy and linguistics... these are not simplistic concepts we see produced by nomadic cultures. Why would history be so starkly different if history repeats itself.
I am not a historian or archaeologist, but, like you, I would think it foolish to think that no migration occurred. What we do know is that Indo-European languages spread throughout northern India. There is no other reasonable explanation other than migrations and/or invasions. As for linguistics, there is no evidence of a Dravidian linguistic tradition, and it is even controversial to assume that what has been assumed to be IVC script was actually a writing system. The advanced linguistics developed by Hindu scholars was entirely grounded in Sanskrit. The earliest parts of it (called the Shiva Sutras) represented a very sophisticated method for representing phonological classes, and those date only to the Vedic period. There is no evidence of IVC influence in that department, although other religious traditions, including Yoga, do seem rooted in the earlier period. The IVC culture was advanced for its time, but the sophisticated scholarly tradition of the Vedic civilization developed much later.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I am not a historian or archaeologist, but, like you, I would think it foolish to think that no migration occurred. What we do know is that Indo-European languages spread throughout northern India. There is no other reasonable explanation other than migrations and/or invasions. As for linguistics, there is no evidence of a Dravidian linguistic tradition, and it is even controversial to assume that what has been assumed to be IVC script was actually a writing system. The advanced linguistics developed by Hindu scholars was entirely grounded in Sanskrit. The earliest parts of it (called the Shiva Sutras) represented a very sophisticated method for representing phonological classes, and those date only to the Vedic period. There is no evidence of IVC influence in that department, although other religious traditions, including Yoga, do seem rooted in the earlier period. The IVC culture was advanced for its time, but the sophisticated scholarly tradition of the Vedic civilization developed much later.

While we are bound to see some migration to and from such a large civilization, the people of the region have largely stayed a constant from genealogical evidences. The only mass migration that is detected was from southeast asia.

So now we have an advanced civilization that trades with other great civilizations of the time period and then magically we see a language full of descriptions of advanced concepts and the only reasonable explanation is that the language didn't develop from the great civilization. This doesn't seem a little off to you?

But I began this thread to understand more, so perhaps I should ask questions. Why is it not reasonable that some language prior to sanskrit emerged from Afghanistan, Pakistan, India region and spread in chunks throughout Europe, West Asia, and the middle east while continuing to develop and evolve in the IVC region?
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
While we are bound to see some migration to and from such a large civilization, the people of the region have largely stayed a constant from genealogical evidences. The only mass migration that is detected was from southeast asia.
Do not confuse linguistic patterns with genetic patterns. All the linguistic evidence tells us is that the Sanskrit language came from outside of India. It doesn't tell us how it got there. Sometimes a conquered population adopts the language of the conquerors. Less often, the conquerors adopt the language of the conquered. So Latin and Greek are spoken in much of the former Roman Empire territory, but the ancestors of Romance speakers mostly did not have Latin as their native language. Similarly, most people in the world today who speak English are not native speakers of English. Linguistic and cultural inheritance is not biological inheritance.

So now we have an advanced civilization that trades with other great civilizations of the time period and then magically we see a language full of descriptions of advanced concepts and the only reasonable explanation is that the language didn't develop from the great civilization. This doesn't seem a little off to you?
George, we don't know a lot about what happened in prehistoric times. All we can do is look at evidence and draw inferences based on that. Linguistic evidence is fairly solid on the argument that the original homeland of Proto-Indo-European was not India. There just isn't any real argument on that subject outside of India. It is an old idea that failed to stand up to the linguistic evidence. That suggests historical migrations and/or invasions, but the genetic footprint of those events could well have been overwhelmed by the indigenous gene pool. From what I have read, the IVC collapsed well before the linguistic migration occurred. The collapse more likely happened from some cataclysmic event that wiped out the agricultural and industrial base of that civilization. The Indo-Iranian speakers may have been filling in territories that had become depopulated. They almost certainly brought horses, chariots, and iron. The original Aryans were meat eaters, but the Hindu religion became vegetarian. I suspect that the "great civilization" of the Aryans was something that developed after the IE languages had spread to India. There were a lot of "advanced civilizations" in contact with each other back then. IVC even traded with the Sumerians and Akkadians. They certainly left traditions and traces after the general collapse of their civilization.

But I began this thread to understand more, so perhaps I should ask questions. Why is it not reasonable that some language prior to sanskrit emerged from Afghanistan, Pakistan, India region and spread in chunks throughout Europe, West Asia, and the middle east while continuing to develop and evolve in the IVC region?
The linguistic evidence is quite extensive, but I did give a link earlier to the Wikipedia page that laid out some of it: Proto-Indo-European Homeland. The argument is based on the common reconstructed vocabulary base of Indo-European languages plus our knowledge of the environments in India, Anatolia, the Russian steppes, and Europe at the time we project a relatively homogeneous ancestor language to have existed. That vocabulary tells us, for example, that the Indo-Europeans had iron, wine, mead, horses, salmon, beech trees, a pantheon of gods, etc. It is not consistent with an origin in the Indian subcontinent. From the article:

The Indigenous Aryans theory, also known as the Out of India theory, proposes an Indian origin for the Indo-European languages. The languages of northern India and Pakistan, including Hindi and the historically and culturally significant liturgical language Sanskrit, belong to the Indo-Aryan branch of the Indo-European language family. The Steppe model, rhetorically presented as an "Aryan invasion," has been opposed by Hindu revivalists and Hindu nationalists, who argue that the Aryans were indigenous to India, and some, such as Koenraad Elst and Shrikant Talageri, have proposed that Proto-Indo-European itself originated in northern India, either with or shortly before the Indus Valley Civilisation. This "Out of India" theory is not regarded as plausible in mainstream scholarship.​
 
Last edited:
Top