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The 10...Er, 613 Commandments

Neo Deist

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Jonathan Ainsley Bain said:
Interesting.
Especially since the new testament proves that circumcision is a useless thing.
Though I am unsure whether to call it a law or commandment or covenant or custom, or....?
Click to expand...

Most Christians today understand that the Bible is highly metaphorical or allegorical. Obviously we aren't going to abide by everything that the Bible says, such as stoning your son to death just because they have an attitude problem. We might be tempted to slap the fire out of an unruly child, but not kill them for being sassy. Personally, I find that taking away the Xbox for a week tends to work wonders!

Only those that take the Bible in a 100% literal sense have issues. The moment they do not obey every little commandment, they become a "pick and choose" hypocrite.
 
Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
Neo Deist said:
Most Christians today understand that the Bible is highly metaphorical or allegorical. Obviously we aren't going to abide by everything that the Bible says, such as stoning your son to death just because they have an attitude problem. We might be tempted to slap the fire out of an unruly child, but not kill them for being sassy. Personally, I find that taking away the Xbox for a week tends to work wonders!

Only those that take the Bible in a 100% literal sense have issues. The moment they do not obey every little commandment, they become a "pick and choose" hypocrite.
Click to expand...

Yes, there is much metaphorical. But there is also the problem of thinking it to be entirely metaphorical.
Perhaps if Old-man Bin Laden had stoned Osama to death it would have been a good thing?
 
oldbadger

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
David1967 said:
No. These laws were given to the Jews, not Gentiles. And Jesus was talking to the Jews. That doesn't however mean that they are irrelevant. IMHO
Click to expand...

The trouble is, that Christians then cherry-picked from the 613, and ignoring what Jesus had said or wanted for the Jews, (the people that he acted for,) they then spent the last 2000 years in self righteous judgement against mankind.

Most times I ask a Christian why a particular law is NOT upheld I hear the reply,'It's not in the new covenant'! Most times I suggest that one of the 613 is outdated I hear that Christians uphold that particular law in earnest!

I have a feeling that Jesus would not be pleased with such Christians, most Christians, in fact.
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
Neo Deist said:
The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10.

Christians will say that Jesus fulfilled the Law and a new covenant was created. They will quote Matthew 5:17 as proof of that. However, they fail to keep reading the rest of the chapter, and in particular the next two verses.

[NASB]
5:18 - For truly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

5:19 - Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

When Jesus says the "Law," he is referring to the Torah, or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. When he says the "Prophets," he is referring to the various Books of Prophets, such as Isaiah. Very clearly he made the statement that none of the Laws should be ignored, changed or set aside. They are binding!

There is one argument that I have heard over the years that has some merit, but it comes from Judaism, not Christianity. That is the idea that Gentiles (non Jews) are not subject to the 613 Jewish laws, but rather the 7 Noahide laws. The people that Jesus was speaking to were Jewish. They would understand what he meant. Gentiles...not so much.

These are the 7 Noahide Laws:
  1. Do not deny God.
  2. Do not blaspheme God.
  3. Do not murder.
  4. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
  5. Do not steal.
  6. Do not eat from a live animal.
  7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.
@Tumah and @Eliab ben Benjamin, feel free to jump in here and correct any of my Jewish understanding.

Others will say that Jesus did away with the old covenant and gave Christians a new one in Matthew 22:37-39.

[NASB]
22:37 - And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
22:38 - This is the great and foremost commandment.
22:39 - The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Using these three verses, they justify their position and beliefs to ignore 603 commandments, opting for just 10 (even though only 2 are listed above). The weird thing is that Jesus never said "these are now the only commandments you must follow." If they had kept reading the same chapter, they would come to the very next verse:

22:40 - On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Even after all of that, Jesus still refers to the OT and how it is binding. So this begs the question:

Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?
Click to expand...
I have a very simple question. What is the fulfillment of the Law?

"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill."
 
Neo Deist

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
roger1440 said:
I have a very simple question. What is the fulfillment of the Law?

"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill."
Click to expand...

Jesus did not come to do away with the Law or change it. His example was what the Law was meant to be. He was without sin. He committed no crimes, did not commit adultery, and followed the morality of the Law. Jesus would be classified as the high priest of the Law, and his blood sacrifice paved the way for the forgiveness of all sin. Thus, he fulfilled what the Law was all about.

That is an apologetics styled answer. I personally do not ascribe to it, but that is not the point.
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
Neo Deist said:
Jesus did not come to do away with the Law or change it. His example was what the Law was meant to be. He was without sin. He committed no crimes, did not commit adultery, and followed the morality of the Law. Jesus would be classified as the high priest of the Law, and his blood sacrifice paved the way for the forgiveness of all sin. Thus, he fulfilled what the Law was all about.

That is an apologetics styled answer. I personally do not ascribe to it, but that is not the point.
Click to expand...
And you think that is what the author of Matthew meant?
 
Neo Deist

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
roger1440 said:
And you think that is what the author of Matthew meant?
Click to expand...

There is no way to know what the author of Matthew meant, as he is dead. We can't ask him to clarify.

That is why we rely on methods of interpretation and understanding such as apologetics, hermeneutics and exegesis.
 
DragonHawk1959

DragonHawk1959

Member
Neo Deist said:
The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10.

Christians will say that Jesus fulfilled the Law and a new covenant was created. They will quote Matthew 5:17 as proof of that. However, they fail to keep reading the rest of the chapter, and in particular the next two verses.

[NASB]
5:18 - For truly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

5:19 - Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

When Jesus says the "Law," he is referring to the Torah, or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. When he says the "Prophets," he is referring to the various Books of Prophets, such as Isaiah. Very clearly he made the statement that none of the Laws should be ignored, changed or set aside. They are binding!

There is one argument that I have heard over the years that has some merit, but it comes from Judaism, not Christianity. That is the idea that Gentiles (non Jews) are not subject to the 613 Jewish laws, but rather the 7 Noahide laws. The people that Jesus was speaking to were Jewish. They would understand what he meant. Gentiles...not so much.

These are the 7 Noahide Laws:
  1. Do not deny God.
  2. Do not blaspheme God.
  3. Do not murder.
  4. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
  5. Do not steal.
  6. Do not eat from a live animal.
  7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.
@Tumah and @Eliab ben Benjamin, feel free to jump in here and correct any of my Jewish understanding.

Others will say that Jesus did away with the old covenant and gave Christians a new one in Matthew 22:37-39.

[NASB]
22:37 - And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
22:38 - This is the great and foremost commandment.
22:39 - The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Using these three verses, they justify their position and beliefs to ignore 603 commandments, opting for just 10 (even though only 2 are listed above). The weird thing is that Jesus never said "these are now the only commandments you must follow." If they had kept reading the same chapter, they would come to the very next verse:

22:40 - On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Even after all of that, Jesus still refers to the OT and how it is binding. So this begs the question:

Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?
Click to expand...

The Jewish legal system recognized a number of sanctuary cities. If someone could reach one he/she was free from retribution as long as he stayed. And if the high priest of the city died then those who had sought sanctuary there were free to leave, and no retribution could be sought against them
As to the OP. Christians are wrong:
"Surely the heavens and the earth shall pass away before the least of the laws."
 
DragonHawk1959

DragonHawk1959

Member
Neo Deist said:
There is no way to know what the author of Matthew meant, as he is dead. We can't ask him to clarify.

That is why we rely on methods of interpretation and understanding such as apologetics, hermeneutics and exegesis.
Click to expand...

"Hermeneutics
is a game played with a stacked deck." It is a set of rules crafted after the fact to lead everyone to the conclusion(s) desired.
The early Jews did not look upon their stories as complicated metaphors, and parables needing someone wiser than themselves to interpret.
 
Upaava

Upaava

Member
Neo Deist said:
[NASB]
5:18 - For truly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
5:19 - Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.
Click to expand...

Shalom Aleichem - may peace be with you,
Jesus was a Torah following Jew, who, as an enlightened elder brother, gave deep insight to the meaning of the Torah as a path to eternal life. This will be hard for some people to accept, but theologians have shown how Constantine I, and others through the ages, have corrupted what Yeshua originally taught, and how he meant his life to be received.

What this means is that the Torah is a true guide for people to follow, not to be altered by the interpretations of humankind (even in Talmud). As you pointed out in the scriptures you quoted, the commandments and covenants of the Torah have never been retracted, they are still in force.

Has God ever spoken to us, and if so, how and when? The Aron HaBrit, the Ark of the Covenant, was God's throne on Earth, from whose Mercy Seat He spoke to the purified High Priest, the Kohen Gadol, once a year. When the Temple is rebuilt in its correct location, that contact can be restored and the errors that have befallen humankind through the centuries can be exposed and eliminated- this restoration of truth can also occur when HaMoshiach Vadai makes his public return.
 
Kemosloby

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Neo Deist said:
The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10.

Christians will say that Jesus fulfilled the Law and a new covenant was created. They will quote Matthew 5:17 as proof of that. However, they fail to keep reading the rest of the chapter, and in particular the next two verses.

[NASB]
5:18 - For truly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

5:19 - Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

When Jesus says the "Law," he is referring to the Torah, or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. When he says the "Prophets," he is referring to the various Books of Prophets, such as Isaiah. Very clearly he made the statement that none of the Laws should be ignored, changed or set aside. They are binding!

There is one argument that I have heard over the years that has some merit, but it comes from Judaism, not Christianity. That is the idea that Gentiles (non Jews) are not subject to the 613 Jewish laws, but rather the 7 Noahide laws. The people that Jesus was speaking to were Jewish. They would understand what he meant. Gentiles...not so much.

These are the 7 Noahide Laws:
  1. Do not deny God.
  2. Do not blaspheme God.
  3. Do not murder.
  4. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
  5. Do not steal.
  6. Do not eat from a live animal.
  7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.
@Tumah and @Eliab ben Benjamin, feel free to jump in here and correct any of my Jewish understanding.

Others will say that Jesus did away with the old covenant and gave Christians a new one in Matthew 22:37-39.

[NASB]
22:37 - And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
22:38 - This is the great and foremost commandment.
22:39 - The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Using these three verses, they justify their position and beliefs to ignore 603 commandments, opting for just 10 (even though only 2 are listed above). The weird thing is that Jesus never said "these are now the only commandments you must follow." If they had kept reading the same chapter, they would come to the very next verse:

22:40 - On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Even after all of that, Jesus still refers to the OT and how it is binding. So this begs the question:

Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?
Click to expand...

It was Paul who argued that Gentiles should not have to keep the law, and Peter agreed Acts 15:28.

Even though the law did not change by one letter or dotted i, they were freed from keeping the letter of the law in an outward show, keeping it in a way more acceptable to God.

Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
 
capumetu

capumetu

Active Member
Neo Deist said:
The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10.

Christians will say that Jesus fulfilled the Law and a new covenant was created. They will quote Matthew 5:17 as proof of that. However, they fail to keep reading the rest of the chapter, and in particular the next two verses.

[NASB]
5:18 - For truly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

5:19 - Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

When Jesus says the "Law," he is referring to the Torah, or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. When he says the "Prophets," he is referring to the various Books of Prophets, such as Isaiah. Very clearly he made the statement that none of the Laws should be ignored, changed or set aside. They are binding!

There is one argument that I have heard over the years that has some merit, but it comes from Judaism, not Christianity. That is the idea that Gentiles (non Jews) are not subject to the 613 Jewish laws, but rather the 7 Noahide laws. The people that Jesus was speaking to were Jewish. They would understand what he meant. Gentiles...not so much.

These are the 7 Noahide Laws:
  1. Do not deny God.
  2. Do not blaspheme God.
  3. Do not murder.
  4. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
  5. Do not steal.
  6. Do not eat from a live animal.
  7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.
@Tumah and @Eliab ben Benjamin, feel free to jump in here and correct any of my Jewish understanding.

Others will say that Jesus did away with the old covenant and gave Christians a new one in Matthew 22:37-39.

[NASB]
22:37 - And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
22:38 - This is the great and foremost commandment.
22:39 - The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Using these three verses, they justify their position and beliefs to ignore 603 commandments, opting for just 10 (even though only 2 are listed above). The weird thing is that Jesus never said "these are now the only commandments you must follow." If they had kept reading the same chapter, they would come to the very next verse:

22:40 - On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Even after all of that, Jesus still refers to the OT and how it is binding. So this begs the question:

Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?
Click to expand...
The law was a tutor to Christ, and Jesus was the end of the law Rom 10:4. A new covenant was instituted and put into force on Pentecost of the year 33
 
B

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Neo Deist said:
The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10.

Christians will say that Jesus fulfilled the Law and a new covenant was created. They will quote Matthew 5:17 as proof of that. However, they fail to keep reading the rest of the chapter, and in particular the next two verses.

[NASB]
5:18 - For truly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

5:19 - Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

When Jesus says the "Law," he is referring to the Torah, or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. When he says the "Prophets," he is referring to the various Books of Prophets, such as Isaiah. Very clearly he made the statement that none of the Laws should be ignored, changed or set aside. They are binding!

There is one argument that I have heard over the years that has some merit, but it comes from Judaism, not Christianity. That is the idea that Gentiles (non Jews) are not subject to the 613 Jewish laws, but rather the 7 Noahide laws. The people that Jesus was speaking to were Jewish. They would understand what he meant. Gentiles...not so much.

These are the 7 Noahide Laws:
  1. Do not deny God.
  2. Do not blaspheme God.
  3. Do not murder.
  4. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
  5. Do not steal.
  6. Do not eat from a live animal.
  7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.
@Tumah and @Eliab ben Benjamin, feel free to jump in here and correct any of my Jewish understanding.

Others will say that Jesus did away with the old covenant and gave Christians a new one in Matthew 22:37-39.

[NASB]
22:37 - And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
22:38 - This is the great and foremost commandment.
22:39 - The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Using these three verses, they justify their position and beliefs to ignore 603 commandments, opting for just 10 (even though only 2 are listed above). The weird thing is that Jesus never said "these are now the only commandments you must follow." If they had kept reading the same chapter, they would come to the very next verse:

22:40 - On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Even after all of that, Jesus still refers to the OT and how it is binding. So this begs the question:

Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?
Click to expand...
You are correct.

If the believer in Yeshua is a gentile, he must keep the seven laws of Noah, and if the believer in Yeshua is a jew, then he must keep the 613.

A great book to read by Dr. Aaron Lichenstein called "Seven Laws of Noah." He demonstrates that the seven laws are actually seven categories of laws. There are closer to 72 laws out of the 613 that are obligatory on gentiles. It is a must read.
 
Robert Landbeck

Robert Landbeck

Member
Neo Deist said:
The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10
Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?
Click to expand...

One can argue the ten or the 613. But what has always been missing from both Christian and Jewish traditions is the 1! That being the single command [and probably understood as a single Law or moral principle] that established the original covenant and a direct, active relationship between God and Adam. Without knowing that vital information, I have to consider all religious claims to be little more than a theological counterfeit? As scripture makes clear, the written law brought nothing to perfection. So true religion has yet to begin, and only when the terms of the 'original' covenant are once again revealed does it begin. Could that be the purpose of the second coming?
 
Neo Deist

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Kemosloby said:
It was Paul who argued that Gentiles should not have to keep the law, and Peter agreed Acts 15:28.

Even though the law did not change by one letter or dotted i, they were freed from keeping the letter of the law in an outward show, keeping it in a way more acceptable to God.

Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Click to expand...

I am well aware of Peter and Paul's argument. Basically, two humans were interjecting their opinions over that of God and Jesus. Talk about arrogance!
 
Kemosloby

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Neo Deist said:
I am well aware of Peter and Paul's argument. Basically, two humans were interjecting their opinions over that of God and Jesus. Talk about arrogance!
Click to expand...

People have always been the messengers of God. Who do you figure has more say than Jesus' Apostles? You?
 
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