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You're no Christian

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siti

Well-Known Member
Look, we're all in this together. We have only one world with life. And, we have written codes describing what a Christian is and isn't. Of course, there are Codes for every walk of life, Archaeology, Geology, Geography, History, etc. None of us would think a second about following those rules but we seem to think everybody is a Christian who says they are. No! Having that warm, fuzzy feeling isn't from God, even if it has cool whip and a cherry on top. There are real and dangerous false churches out there deceiving and destroying lives. As I said, I can 'say' I am the King/Queen of England. But am I? How do we know if I am or not? There are codes (rules, guidelines, standards) that are clear-cut and fool-proof. The same applies to Christianity. Just bc we like people from a false group doesn't make them or it right or Christian. We have to apply the standard no matter how hard or offensive it may be. If we speak against some group it is (again) bc they taught, printed and published their beliefs for us to read. We (me) aren't the bad guys for simply repeating their beliefs. They are for teaching them. How I wish that thinking would permeate our 'everyone is right or deserves a trophy' culture. It just isn't true...or right.
Sonny, you are making my argument for me...anyway, here's what I have said so far in summary in case I didn't express it very clearly...

1. Anybody can call themselves "Christian" - (one reason why - since you asked earlier - I would not use that label personally - in that sense it is meaningless (which I think is what you are also saying) - however, neither I nor you either could or should try to dissuade or prevent others from using it if that seems right to them

2. All that said, from my point of view, if someone really wants to be a "Christian" this means they are identifying as a follower of "Christ" and putting on themselves the obligation to live and teach according to the example and teachings of "Christ" - aren't they?

3. So, if a Church wants to call itself "Christian" then - I think, but they and you are more than welcome to disagree and call it "Christian" anyway - it should be teaching what "Christ" (reportedly) taught - with me so far?

4. "Christ" (reportedly) taught* that the two greatest commandments are to "Love God" (and John reportedly and quite reasonably said we can't say we love God and hate our brother - i.e. fellow humans) and the "Love one's neighbour" (Matthew 22:36-40; 1 John 4:20); he said that we should "do unto others as we would have them do unto ourselves" (Matthew 7:12); he said that following or not following this "commandment" would be the basis of judgement (Matthew 7:13-24) and he expanded on what this commandment and judgement meant (Matthew 25:31-46). Since these are the greatest commandments according to "Christ" and vitally important in terms of the prospect of "the life to come" that he also taught about, in my humble (and almost certainly irrelevant opinion) any Church that does not put these teachings - namely the doing of good to others - at the top of their list (as "Christ" so clearly did) is not following his teaching and therefore (in reality and regardless of what they might choose to be nominally) not Christian by definition**.

*According to the accepted canon of scripture - there is no independent confirmation anywhere that anyone called "Jesus" and supposed to be the "Christ" ever actually said or did these things of course.

** I haven't found one that is yet.
 

Sonny

Active Member
Sonny, I have absolutely nothing to say to you. Trying to talk to you is a complete waste of my time. I have not one shred of respect for you as a person, as you have shown your true colors again and again and again. You might as well not even respond to my posts, as I certainly won't be responding to yours. Anything I have to say will be addressed to others on this forum -- not to you. I believe I have made my position perfectly clear.
This is exactly what is not welcomed, in fact hated, in religious discussions. People want you to listen to their personal opinions about their religion/church but become mean, aggressive, bashing, name-calling or refuse to simply honestly and openly discuss what their religion has said and done. And, I am sorry to say, I have experienced this every time I have ever approached a member of this church. I try to be fair, open-minded, honest and civil but they can't take hearing their own truth, what their own leaders have taught, printed and published for the whole world to see. Then, when we read what they 'taught' as God's word to man they get mad at us for simply 'repeating' their leaders. But, none of them ever asked, or condemn, their leaders about these 'doctrines' and 'beliefs'.
How am I the bad guy for only repeating what those men taught 25, 50, 100 or 150 years ago? I'm not. They just don't want anyone finding out about the awful things their church taught about and/or did to others not of their church. Anyone ever heard of the Mountain Meadows Massacre? If so, you know why they don't want you to know about them. If not, look it up online. I lived near there in St. George, Utah.
I hold no animosity towards the LDS even though I have been threatened with physical harm 7 times and had death threats stuck on my truck while at work for informing them of their founding and original 'God-given' doctrines, which few, if any, are still considered doctrines of that church. I ask, Did God change? They say He never alters of changes. Yet, many of the early beliefs are never mentioned and in fact have been removed from their source material. I truly wish I could explain what they believed. It would, literally, shock most here. But, if no one asks I will not offer. If I was asked I would give references from that church's published books to show I am not making these things up. I'd like an open discussion/debate on them. Anyone want to discuss these beliefs? mine have been discussed for 18 pages and not once have I been mean or angry. Shows a distinct difference in reaction to 'open debate', huh?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I know it's convenient to redefine words so as to fit one's position, but let's not.

generation

1 a : a body of living beings constituting a single step in the line of descent from an ancestor
...b : a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously <the younger generation

3: : the average span of time between the birth of parents and that of their offspring
source: Merriam Webster Dictionary​


Most sources seem to put the length of a generation at 20 years, while some peg it at 25.


.
Look at each scripture which the word is used, imagine Jesus really is God, and that God is timeless and you might see that generation means all the people since the beginning. Generation means the people related to God's purpose for good or for bad.
 

Sonny

Active Member
Catholics, by instruction and theological understanding, heavily preach that man shall not ever judge another soul.
Not trying to be argumentative but, doesn't Catholicism teach that IT is the only right and true church? Someone did mention and acknowledged that in an earlier post. I believe we all, individually and in religion, judge people. To me, it's the standard we use to judge that is important. The standard I use is truth. Did they say it? Is it true? These determine our judgment.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
You seem to be advocating the 'everyone did what was right in their own eyes' philosophy. It reminds me of Flip Wilson saying (starting) 'The Devil made me do it' slogan. It was funny but wrong. We choose to listen to God or Satan. How can we know who is really directing our thoughts? Is it us or the world around us, the Devil or God? That is why God put His will/laws in a book.

The reason we talk to people is bc we love them. My parents spanked me when I deserved it. I thot they were the devil himself for doing that. But I earned what I got and they were only helping me to know right from wrong. It still hurt. telling people their church is wrong/false is love. If we who know the truth (have evidence to prove it) don't tell the truth to them, who will? Or, should we do nothing and let people keep driving down the road when we know the bridge is out down around the bend? This is where all of us are. JWs think they are saving souls. Mormons think they are saving souls. Christians think they are saving souls. Who really is? The one whose church doesn't have false revelations or failed prophecies (has fulfilled ones). If a church/group has ONE failed/false prophecy/revelation then, according to the Bible, they are not His, bc He knows everything about everything before there was anything. But these groups issue prophecies then make excuses for them not coming true. That, folks, is not the God of Christianity. I wish I could get that point firmly understood. And, this point isn't about which church is true. It's about knowing, as an absolute fact, which church isn't true. After that the true church is a lot easier to see.
But how do you know what church isn't true, are you going to use your own belief system as a measure, and how do you know your own measure is the truth, you see this is why I gave up all religions, and found my own inner truth, its mine, I don't have to prove it to anyone, and I certainly will not want to organize it.
 

Sonny

Active Member
Can you admit that this is your personal opinion and that your opinion might be wrong?

I think that any mistakes, and there are some very serious mistakes, can be undone in your mind by the power of God, so therefore it actually CAN BE considered the right meaning after that, but only if you obey The Spirit of GOD and NOT the words of men.

If you lean on the opinion that any scripture can't be wrong, then The Spirit can not help you find the right meaning.
As I have said if someone shows me, with conclusive evidence, that my views are incorrect or wrong then I will change. My beliefs, while strong and sure, are not set so that they cannot change if/when evidence comes to light. I am not a Theologian or a Bible Scholar but I have done a lot of research. I use that as my determining basis for my beliefs. And when I feel I am being directed by God to do or say something. Lately, I haven't felt much of that.
 

Sonny

Active Member
Can God tell you anything different than what you believe God is telling you?
God never contradicts His word. That is why/how we can easily identify those who claim to be but aren't really Christian- their fruit, as Jesus taught.
 

Sonny

Active Member
But how do you know what church isn't true, are you going to use your own belief system as a measure, and how do you know your own measure is the truth, you see this is why I gave up all religions, and found my own inner truth, its mine, I don't have to prove it to anyone, and I certainly will not want to organize it.
All we know is from what we have and the history behind it. Yes, I use my religion as the standard of measure bc they are saying they are Christian when in fact they use very little to none of the Bible more often than not. My measure is true based on what I can prove of it- the history of the Jewish people and the fulfilled prophecies. Have you noticed that no one has tried to refute the fulfilled prophecies I offered here? (they just ignore them and continue being whatever they are w/o acknowledging Christianity has the proof they have been asking for) That's bc they can't. God gave it to men, men gave it to the rest of us and time brought it to pass, just as the Bible said. If the Bible (or, any book) has truth (fulfilled prophecy) in it then you know it is true. You take what you have, as little or few as it is, and extrapolate that to cover the whole Bible. That is, if the prophecy parts are true then the rest must be by the same God who saw the future and accurately predicted it. If He can do that then, 1. He is God and, 2. He can't lie, never changes and the rest of His word must be true as well.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Look at each scripture which the word is used, imagine Jesus really is God, and that God is timeless and you might see that generation means all the people since the beginning. Generation means the people related to God's purpose for good or for bad.
Not in the scriptures I found.

Genesis 9:12
[ The Sign of God’s Covenant ] God also said, “Here’s the symbol that represents the covenant that I’m making between me and you and every living being with you, for all future generations:

Genesis 15:16

Your descendants will return here in the fourth generation, since the iniquity of the Amorites has not yet run its course.”

Genesis 17:12
Generation after generation, every male among you is to be circumcised on the eighth day after his birth, including the servant born in your house or the one purchased from a foreigner, who is not of your offspring.

Genesis 50:23

Joseph saw the third generation of Ephraim’s children, as well as the children who had been born to Manasseh’s son Machir, whom he adopted as his own.

All of which pretty much follow in line with the definition given in Merriam-Webster.: discrete, limited lengths of time involving parents and their offspring.


.
 

Sonny

Active Member
It does mean that they won't make bad decisions. A perfect being has no imperfections. That's what "perfect" means.
Then how do you explain the Fall?
We didn't get where we are by perfect people else there'd be no lies, cheating, stealing , cults, or prisons.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
All we know is from what we have and the history behind it. Yes, I use my religion as the standard of measure bc they are saying they are Christian when in fact they use very little to none of the Bible more often than not. My measure is true based on what I can prove of it- the history of the Jewish people and the fulfilled prophecies. Have you noticed that no one has tried to refute the fulfilled prophecies I offered here? (they just ignore them and continue being whatever they are w/o acknowledging Christianity has the proof they have been asking for) That's bc they can't. God gave it to men, men gave it to the rest of us and time brought it to pass, just as the Bible said. If the Bible (or, any book) has truth (fulfilled prophecy) in it then you know it is true. You take what you have, as little or few as it is, and extrapolate that to cover the whole Bible. That is, if the prophecy parts are true then the rest must be by the same God who saw the future and accurately predicted it. If He can do that then, 1. He is God and, 2. He can't lie, never changes and the rest of His word must be true as well.
Those so called predictions from the old testament to the new testament I believe are not predictions at all, they were written in latter to sound as if they were, its easy to do, and easy to fool others with.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God never contradicts His word. That is why/how we can easily identify those who claim to be but aren't really Christian- their fruit, as Jesus taught.
Matthew 28:19 contradicts the rest of the Bible. Where else is it written that you are to make another person believe in God?
 

Sonny

Active Member
I think we need to be extremely careful about using the terms "cult", or "false religion". Simply because its difficult to inspire productive dialogue if we start off with terms like this.
Yeah I guess ur right. But, words do mean things. It isn't a slur to speak the truth. And it may open their eyes. I used that word for lack of a better one. I have also used bunch, groups and churches/religion. I mean no offense when I say such. But those here who are offended use that word on others, like the JWs. It really is a matter of truth and evidence. people get mad at me bc I say those two a lot. But, having posted the 'Absolute Truth' article here I think everyone understands what's what. But I will stop using that term. If you think it could be taken personally then others may, too, and I don't want to offend anyone.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not in the scriptures I found.

Genesis 9:12
[ The Sign of God’s Covenant ] God also said, “Here’s the symbol that represents the covenant that I’m making between me and you and every living being with you, for all future generations:

Genesis 15:16

Your descendants will return here in the fourth generation, since the iniquity of the Amorites has not yet run its course.”

Genesis 17:12
Generation after generation, every male among you is to be circumcised on the eighth day after his birth, including the servant born in your house or the one purchased from a foreigner, who is not of your offspring.

Genesis 50:23

Joseph saw the third generation of Ephraim’s children, as well as the children who had been born to Manasseh’s son Machir, whom he adopted as his own.

All of which pretty much follow in line with the definition given in Merriam-Webster.: discrete, limited lengths of time involving parents and their offspring.


.
Cute! Do you have one for the Greek?
 

Sonny

Active Member
Those so called predictions from the old testament to the new testament I believe are not predictions at all, they were written in latter to sound as if they were, its easy to do, and easy to fool others with.
Got any proof of that?
 

Sonny

Active Member
Matthew 28:19 contradicts the rest of the Bible. Where else is it written that you are to make another person believe in God?
Let me look that word up to see its Greek meaning. Later. 'Make' in this sense could mean...make those kids stop screaming. Doesn't mean to tape their mouths or beat them up. It means to say something to quiet them down. So we 'say something' (make) to lead them to Christ. I'll check it out, tho
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let me look that word up to see its Greek meaning. Later. 'Make' in this sense could mean...make those kids stop screaming. Doesn't mean to tape their mouths or beat them up. It means to say something to quiet them down. So we 'say something' (make) to lead them to Christ. I'll check it out, tho
Where else is it written that anyone but GOD should lead?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let me look that word up to see its Greek meaning. Later. 'Make' in this sense could mean...make those kids stop screaming. Doesn't mean to tape their mouths or beat them up. It means to say something to quiet them down. So we 'say something' (make) to lead them to Christ. I'll check it out, tho
You will come up short when you look up "make" because it isn't in the original.
 

Sonny

Active Member
Have you ever read anything from Plato? Do you know how he used the word "essence"? Are you aware of the heavy Hellenization that was found in eretz Israel at the time of Jesus? Now put these altogether.

Yes, it's symbolic, but in a way that Catholics believe also involves the real essence of Jesus' body and blood, as is found in John's gospel. Now you believe in John''s gospel doncha? ;)

And exactly how do you know they're "mistaken"? I would say that's rather presumptuous on your part. The early church (2nd century plus) thought these were handed down, but you claim that you know more than they?

My approach is that if there's a doubt about a particular interpretation, then look at how people reacted to it to try and get clarification. Confession was done in the very early church (again, 2nd century plus), and at first it was a public confession with a period of penance afterword (the person could stay for the first part of the service but then had to leave at the dictates of the bishop). Later it was moved to private confession-- I believe sometime in the 3rd century.

One can, but that does not mend the healing that may be needed within the community itself. Most people are not hermits, so damage can be done to the community. If I really screw up, do you honestly think that in every case this only involves God and I?

Church ("ecclesia") means "community", and aren't you aware that sin just doesn't affect the individual but can also affect the community as a whole? God can forgive our person sins, but that doesn't make up for the hurt we may have caused others.
IOW, it's not just you and God that's involved.


We can evaluate others, but it is unethical to judge others.

It seems that you are not willing to accept Jesus for what he says on this, but that's your choice. Lots of people make excuses to ignore what's written or to just pooh-pooh the teachings away.

And Jesus did not teach in a vacuum, and he well knew that it was not just the individual that was involved with sin, much like is found in Torah. As a Jew, I have an obligation to try and correct any damage that I may have done to someone else, so just seeking God's forgiveness by itself often is not enough. The steps that the CC took is sort of an in-between process, but it can be justified through what Jesus told the apostles about the binding and loosening of sins.
I agree that our choices can adversely effect others. I meant, only God can forgive sins in the sense of those things we do against God. We must apologize to others when we wrong them. I want that kind of forgiveness, too.
The 'mistake' part is bc I meant none of us have heard or seen any Apostles of Jesus since those days. If that line continued where are they?
 

Sonny

Active Member
I think this varies. Some Christians get very defensive at the suggestion that these parts were added.
I'm sure of it. Just don't know of any.


They have huge effects on the message of the Bible:

- the long ending of Mark changes the story from one that ends with everyone being confused and afraid at the empty tomb to one that ends with a resurrected Jesus appearing to people (and all that snake-handling stuff that some denominations take very seriously).

- the Comma Johanneum is the only passage in the Bible that clearly expresses the idea of the Trinity.

These two additions have huge ramifications for the message of the Bible.
I don't think so. Mark is consistent with the other gospels on the tomb part. And I believe only a couple (of over 25,000 Manuscripts) don't have those verses in them. I'd say, since vastly more do than don't, they are appropriate. I think it's St. John that has a similar set of questionable verses like this.
Also, on 1 John. The OT tells us there is a Trinity with the use of words like 'Let us make man in our image'. Clearly- to me, God is speaking of the Trinity. There are verses in Psalms, too
 
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