You're no Christian

Valerian said:

No, they are not Christians based on what the error they are teaching about history or about who God really is. But they may be called Christians for teaching some heavenly truths, such as humility, chastity, kindess to strangers, charity, etc. They may also be Christians for being extremely charitable and caring of their fellow man. So they will be judged just like you and I, that is, what did we know and what did we do about what we knew. And what did we do that was good and what did we do wrong, or fail to do, that clearly violated our consciences.

Because you are a Bible believing Christian and I am a Catholic guided Christian our answers are sure to disagree on matters such as this. More prominent than any other differences, imo, is our belief in purgatory, whereas, I assume you believe when one dies they will quickly find themselves in heaven or in hell. Is that true?

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Laudable but not Christianity. Christianity is about Jesus, the Christ. We are to emulate Him, tells others about Him, correct others from their errors or erroneous beliefs, help those less fortunate than ourselves, pray for all men, hate none, do good, not evil. We will be judged on what we did with Jesus. We are to die to self and live for (servants of) Jesus. The Bible is the only way to know what Jesus expects from us. It is God's word to men.

Sonny said:

When I lived in St. George, Utah there was a group of men who gathered to study and witness, house-house, to... whomever (although, most were LDS and that was our reason for going, primarily). We would encounter everything from a Welcome, Come on in to I have my own religion or I have a testimony that 'my' church is true. The best way we found was to ask them questions and provide answers from the Bible. While they 'say' they believe the Bible, they don't really- ex. Christianity teaches there is one God and Jesus is Him incarnate. They teach there could be Trillions of God and men may become Gods with their own...'Universe'. Regardless of which religion is the true one (Christian or Mormon), the fact is the LDS are not Christian. if they were all of their beliefs would be in line with the Bible- a book they trashed ad nauseum in the days of their early leaders.

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I agree almost entirely. I only differ in this, I believe like you that LDS is not a Christian organization, but I do allow that there could be some Christians that have gotten mixed up in it.

Absolutely! And, it only takes one disgruntled member to wreak havoc on an otherwise good church.

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Agreed. I heard a minister make a very appropriate statement one time. Christians are one of the few groups that shoot our own wounded. IOW people saved by grace should not condemn a person who simply makes the same moral mistakes we all do, just because their weakness lies in another context. God saved me through an undeserved act of grace, so I should not withhold that same grace from any other. I should not drink yet condemn a smoker, for example.

That's tough. I think most try very hard to be 'Christ-like'. As with all of life mistakes are made. Sometimes people run with them and hurt that church body. And all churches have the potential, if not experienced such things already. personally, I like the Southern Baptist. The one we attended tried to stay within the Bible's teachings. We had a way to question what was being taught. One of our Mottos was: Never contradict clear Scripture (I still have it on a sticker on my old Bible). If a church focuses on Jesus, and not on men (leaders), they are on the right road.

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Not citing any actual church congregation I chose the Baptist denomination as the best I could find. I was not going to a church when I became a born again Christian. So my next decision was to go to a church, I thought let me read the whole bible and review it enough to establish what I thought it said and then select the denomination that has a creed as close to it as I could find. My two primary Christian doctrines on which I will not compromise an inch are salvation by grace alone, and the preservation of the saints. I felt the Baptist creed most enshrined those two core doctrines but no denomination is perfect.

Skwim said:

Your evidence please.

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Fulfilled prophecies for one. Check the Bible for prophecies then see if it came true or is likely to come true. These are they which come straight from God's mouth to mankind's ears- then He puts an exclamation point on it when He fulfills one.

If one contends that the Bible was written or inspired by god to say X, Y, and Z isn't it reasonable to think god had very good reason to use those exact words rather than any others? And why allow the writers to pen various statements that conflict with each other or cause doubt as to their meaning? Wouldn't a god be able to insure that his message and all its elements were crystal clear, and for all time, rather than let them fracture his church into so many competing denominations? When looked at objectively the Bible has been the source of a lot of disagreement, some of which has led to violence and bloodshed. And because of some of its outlandish claims and instructions/demands it has also led a lot of people to reject Christianity. If I was god I believe I could have written far better instructions for attaining salvation, as could have a lot of other people.
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God uses men to do His bidding most of the time. He doesn't give anyone a script of how to do things. he says Do it and they do it in their own way or words. Hey, I don't understand everything, either. I repeat what I've heard, read and researched. None of us has God's ear, as it were- except a few fringe groups who 'think' they speak to do but never have anything to say that changes anything or helps anyone.

Katzpur said:

And maybe they don't even believe the things Sonny is telling you they believe.

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And maybe they do. There is one way to find out. Wanna compare? I'll bring my 30 plus years of research and you can bring your feelings. Deal? Just say the word- but, let's be civil and factual and have references to verify, ok?

savagewind said:

Preaching and making are not the same. Do you want proof?

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Sure

savagewind said:

You say, "the Bible is the standard". The meaning of standard is this: "a level of achievement". What is your definition?

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Definition of standard.: a level of quality, achievement, etc., that is considered acceptable or desirable. standards: ideas about morally correct and acceptable behavior.: something that is very good and that is used to make judgments about the quality of other things.

Mine- the ultimate and supreme authority (a level of quality and achievement) on what constitutes God's word. And, (Standard), the accepted starting and ending point to understand God's will and plan for mankind.

savagewind said:

And maybe you can see a problem with putting an age on FAITH?

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Accountability for faith, sin, life- not age. The age one reaches when they know right from wrong and can make rational decisions based on them.

savagewind said:

I think that is incorrect. I think that a disciple should live as though Christ is leading. YOU teach that we should live as though the Bible is leading.

I do not believe there are better people than me in hell.

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1. In the beginning was the 'word' and the 'word' was with god and the 'WORD' WAS GOD. Jesus is the very 'word of God' manifested in the flesh. That is why I say Bible.
2. I do. How many rich people have given millions to help others- feed, house, clothe the poor but never accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior? While I know none personally, I've heard of them on TV and radio.

Sonny said:

Ok. Provide some proof from the Bible. See, this is how we verify what is and isn't a Christian church, by their teachings. If it's in the Bible, Voila, we're good. if not, well.....
Only God can forgive sins, the Bible says. Are you God?

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I already provided two justifications for this, with one being what Jesus told the apostles about their power of binding and loosening of sins, and also how the 2nd century church reacted to this. Meanwhile, you have provided nothing, and you also contradicted yourself with the part of your post that I underlined above because obviously the apostles also had this power according to scripture.

To be clear, I am not saying that the RCC is correct on this article of theology, only that this is where their practice is from. If you don't accept their interpretation and logic, fine-- neither do I, but for a different reason.

So, I guess we've completed this discussion.

Sonny said:

[I firmly believe that 'when' America goes (under liberal rule or bc of them) the world will revert to another Dark Ages].

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So, you voted for Trump and yet you insist that your Christian theology is somehow correct? Whatever happened to "and you shall know them by their works"?

BTW, I will not debate this for some rather obvious reasons.

Sonny said:

Everything God said is correct. men make mistakes but never when speaking what God has told them or when God is directly speaking to them.

Fulfilled prophecies for one. Check the Bible for prophecies then see if it came true or is likely to come true. These are they which come straight from God's mouth to mankind's ears- then He puts an exclamation point on it when He fulfills one.

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Failed Prophecies:


The river mentioned here is the Nile. The Nile is still one of Egypt's greatest natural resource, and it has never undergone the dire changes prophesied here.


There are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.



Jesus is never referred to as Emmanuel (Immanuel).



Jesus states that all the signs marking the end of the world in Matthew 24 would be fulfilled before his generation ended. That generation ended 2000 years ago, and the world has not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled.

So if men did not make any mistake in writing down these prophecies and God never made a mistake in uttering them, where does the fault lie?

God uses men to do His bidding most of the time. He doesn't give anyone a script of how to do things. he says Do it and they do it in their own way or words. Hey, I don't understand everything, either. I repeat what I've heard, read and researched. None of us has God's ear, as it were- except a few fringe groups who 'think' they speak to do but never have anything to say that changes anything or helps anyone.

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A totally irrelevant remark.


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metis said:

We can evaluate others, but it is unethical to judge others.

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excellent point!

Sonny said:

Everything God said is correct. men make mistakes but never when speaking what God has told them or when God is directly speaking to them. God did inspire men to write His word. he allowed them to write it in their own style.

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I do wish someone would please admit that what was heard and eventually written is not for the same consideration as what was copied, which is what we actually have.
To be saying that what was heard which God really and truly said and the modern translated version are the same is imo EVIL.

Sonny said:

Christians? Who?

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For example, united Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Apostolic. There is probably more, but that is all I came up with in short order. (BTW, If I misrepresented ant of those three, please correct me.)

metis said:

Absolutely false, and all you are doing is inventing your own "theology".

I can forgive sins against me. So can you forgive sins against you. So can a priest or minister or rabbi in the context of the community that (s)he represents. It's unfortunate that you only see the issue of sin as being between the individual person and God when clearly more is at stake.

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No you can't. All you can do is withhold retribution or mitigate vengeance. You have no access to the debts your sins have created between you and the sovereign creator of the universe. If God exists we are all in debt and have nothing to pay off that debt with.

Sonny said:

Definition of standard.:standards: ideas about morally correct and acceptable behavior.:

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Genesis 19:26 Genesis 19:33 Genesis 12:13 Genesis 20:2 Exodus 12:29 1 Samuel 25:38

Sonny said:

1. In the beginning was the 'word' and the 'word' was with god and the 'WORD' WAS GOD. Jesus is the very 'word of God' manifested in the flesh. That is why I say Bible.

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Are you assuming that the word read at John 1:1 is the Bible?

Why not ask The Lord if the word is "let it be"? The Word is God speaking. It does not mean what people hear.

Skwim said:

Failed Prophecies:

Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

Jesus states that all the signs marking the end of the world in Matthew 24 would be fulfilled before his generation ended. That generation ended 2000 years ago, and the world has not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled.
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But, what if generation really means the people calling upon his name? That generation is still going strong.

Sonny said:

Laudable but not Christianity. Christianity is about Jesus, the Christ. We are to emulate Him, tells others about Him, correct others from their errors or erroneous beliefs, help those less fortunate than ourselves, pray for all men, hate none, do good, not evil. We will be judged on what we did with Jesus. We are to die to self and live for (servants of) Jesus. The Bible is the only way to know what Jesus expects from us. It is God's word to men.

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>> "Laudable but not Christianity. Christianity is about Jesus, the Christ. We are to emulate Him, tells others about Him, correct others from their errors or erroneous beliefs, help those less fortunate than ourselves, pray for all men, hate none, do good, not evil."

And what if we do not do all that?
And what if we go less than half way and are a lukewarm Christian?
And what if we are a solid believer and church goer but very much self centered and indifferent to most others?

Can you answer any of those questions?

Can you answer this one? What happens to a young muslim boy at the age of 9 who dies and knows nothing of Jesus or is even brought up to hate Christians? What happens if he dies at 12?... at 15?

savagewind said:

But, what if generation really means the people calling upon his name? That generation is still going strong.

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I know it's convenient to redefine words so as to fit one's position, but let's not.



Most sources seem to put the length of a generation at 20 years, while some peg it at 25.


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