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Why should one believe that something the TaNaKh predicts would actually literally occur?

Rakovsky

Active Member
In Isaiah 42, it looks like Isaiah is getting sayings directly from the Lord (the Bat Kol), or else the Lord is prompting Isaiah to speak, and by this Isaiah can tell that these sayings are the Lord's:
4. Neither shall he weaken nor shall he be broken, until he establishes justice in the land, and for his instruction, islands shall long.
5. So said God the Lord, the Creator of the heavens and the One Who stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and what springs forth from it, Who gave a soul to the people upon it and a spirit to those who walk thereon.
6. I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness
(JPT Translation)
My guess would be that these words above are Isaiah's own divinely-inspired declaration and not a recitation of a Bat Kol. So the prophet, Isaiah, is declaring his promptings, and he and the elders are taking and viewing them as directly from the Lord Himself. (eg. "I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness...")
 

Rakovsky

Active Member
We today (or back then probably) don't rely on our own judgment to establish the prophet-ness of those prophets. We rely on the job the Sanhedrin did back then as well as on the Men of the Great Assembly - many of whom were prophets themselves.


We maintain belief in the existence of prophecy and not a far-fetched one. As such, someone who satisfies the character requirements Maimonides lays out and then goes on to fulfill the tests, prophecy would be highly likely.
Hello, Tumah!
I have enjoyed your correspondence with me. I understand that the elders were leaders in the formation of the Jewish religion, and so once they judged that the prophets passed their evaluations, of course as Maimonides said, Judaism definitely accepts the prophets as legitimate.

Further, I understand that the elders were wise, and thus they would tend to make good judgments about whether someone was a prophet or not. This is a good reason to trust the prophets.

Still, as a modern educated person, I have some uncertainty as to the prophets' overall reliability for other reasons. Do you recommend someone else I could ask or something else to read on this question of objectivity from our modern stance 2100-3500 years later?

It seems to me that even if good natured, theologically correct ancient sages considered someone a prophet and according to the sages this was based on strict tests, that the prophet could turn out to be wrong sometimes, for different reasons, leading to unreliability.

To give some examples, I can see how the Lord was inspiring the writing of the Torah with its groundbreaking supreme morality. But when I get to the Creation story and the story of Noah's ark, it leaves me with misgivings. The JPT translation of Genesis 1 sounds like it is describing the earth's plants as created before the sun and moon were created:
11 And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, seed yielding herbs and fruit trees producing fruit according to its kind in which its seed is found, on the earth," and it was so.
12 And the earth gave forth vegetation, seed yielding herbs according to its kind, and trees producing fruit, in which its seed is found, according to its kind, and God saw that it was good.
13 And it was evening, and it was morning, a third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be luminaries in the expanse of the heavens, to separate between the day and between the night, and they shall be for signs and for appointed seasons and for days and years.
15 And they shall be for luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shed light upon the earth." And it was so.
16 And God made the two great luminaries: the great luminary to rule the day and the lesser luminary to rule the night, and the stars.
17 And God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to shed light upon the earth.
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate between the light and between the darkness
In case I am reading that wrongly, another problem is Noah's ark's account. It sounds like Torah is saying that about 3500 years ago, the whole world was covered with water for at least 40 days, during which Noah packed two of every animal species into his ark, after which those couples repopulated the earth over the course of the next c. 1500 years. The account seems to go against my understanding of biology and geology.

So even though I accept the sages' and Torah's wisdom, moral truths, and basic correctness in its theology, it leaves me with confusion over how they could accept some things as factual that so strongly contradict my understanding of biology and geology. I admire Judaism's theology and teachings like rejection of idolatry that set it apart and above other ancient nations' religions, but in some ways like the creation stories and the use of prophets it seems a bit like those other religions in its operation. This is why I look for some evidence and reasons for myself to trust the Tanakh's predictions as objectively reliable.
 

Rakovsky

Active Member
Dear Rosends,
In my initial post saying "They typically agree that the Messiah would be mortal and die, and that he would be crushed in some sense", I was not intending to get very much into the topic of a suffering Messiah. I was thinking of Maimonides' own quote when I wrote this.

1. Are you saying that Maimonides was not stating that the Messiah would in fact die when Maimonides wrote:
The Messiah will then die [as all men], and his son, and his son's son will rule after him. God has already described his death; he says: 'ד לֹא יִכְהֶה וְלֹא יָרוּץ, עַד-יָשִׂים בָּאָרֶץ מִשְׁפָּט; וּלְתוֹרָתוֹ, אִיִּים יְיַחֵלוּ. {פ}.' (Isa. 42:4).
It sounded like you were saying Maimonides was not actually stating that Messiah would in fact die, since you objected
"That the conclusion drawn by Gill's exposition who see this as proof of the Messiah's death is right. ... This doesn't mean that the Messiah will not die -- the Rambam says that that might happen".
You seem to be taking Maimonides' words "The Messiah will then die... God has already described his death; he says..." as seeing Isaiah 42:4 as only an uncertain possibility and not as an indication of something that he believed would certainly occur.

2. When I said "crushed in some sense", I meant "yarutz", with its associated meanings. You gave some: "There are a number of different meanings for the r-tz-tz root including pressured, bent, broken and others."
I understand that those words are not all exactly the same.

How indicative do you consider the JPT translation to be of Judaism's understanding of this passage?

May I ask if there is any time in the Hebrew Bible outside of Isaiah 42:4 where the word yaruts is used and it doesn't refer to anything like oppression, breaking, scattering, crushing, or bruising?
Strong's Hebrew: 7533. רָצַץ (ratsats) -- 19 Occurrences
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
Dear Rosends,
In my initial post saying "They typically agree that the Messiah would be mortal and die, and that he would be crushed in some sense", I was not intending to get very much into the topic of a suffering Messiah. I was thinking of Maimonides' own quote when I wrote this.

1. Are you saying that Maimonides was not stating that the Messiah would in fact die

Maimonides does mention the messiah's death. However, if one reads R. Saadia Gaon, one understands that the conditions required for the Rambam's understanding to take place might not happen. Thus, my statement of "might."
2. When I said "crushed in some sense", I meant "yarutz", with its associated meanings. You gave some: "There are a number of different meanings for the r-tz-tz root including pressured, bent, broken and others."
I understand that those words are not all exactly the same.
Since they are not all the same, you cannot choose one and say that all parties agree that that sense is agreed upon by all parties.
How indicative do you consider the JPT translation to be of Judaism's understanding of this passage?
How indicative do you think the Judaica Press translation is (Yeshayahu - Chapter 42 How about all the other translations available at biblestudytools.com that don't have "crushed"? What does each one indicate. There is nothing in Jewish theology which demands the word "crushed" there.
May I ask if there is any time in the Hebrew Bible outside of Isaiah 42:4 where the word yaruts is used and it doesn't refer to oppression, breaking, scattering, crushing, or bruising?
Strong's Hebrew: 7533. רָצַץ (ratsats) -- 19 Occurrences
How about Gen 25:22..."Struggled"
 

Rakovsky

Active Member
Since they are not all the same, you cannot choose one and say that all parties agree that that sense is agreed upon by all parties.
I agree. That is why I said "in some sense". I meant that there are different senses of the word in Isaiah 42:4 (break, oppress, crush, bruise), and that Maimonides was using some sense of this.

How indicative do you think the Judaica Press translation is (Yeshayahu - Chapter 42 How about all the other translations available at biblestudytools.com that don't have "crushed"? What does each one indicate. There is nothing in Jewish theology which demands the word "crushed" there.
Why are you telling me to use a Christian Bible database when you already criticized me for using 1917 JPS because it has KJV influence? Imagine if I had opened up this thread with 20 different Christian Bible versions of the word yaruts how much objection you would be giving me, Rosends.

My goal in this thread is not to dispute against the Jewish translations or debate the question of Messiah's suffering, but rather to focus on Maimonides' and others' views of Messiah's death based on Isaiah 42:4.
So I looked at the convenient 1917 JPS and JPT and considered their agreed translation to be "typical" even if there are other common senses for "yaruts" like pressure, weary, discourage, struggle, or anything else you actually believe to be correct.

How about Gen 25:22..."Struggled"

Genesis 25:22 (JPT) does say "struggled", in the sense the two children stuck together are physically fighting, striking, or hurting eachother:
And Isaac prayed to the Lord opposite his wife because she was barren, and the Lord accepted his prayer, and Rebecca his wife conceived.

22And the children struggled within her, and she said, "If [it be] so, why am I [like] this?" And she went to inquire of the Lord.
כבוַיִּתְרֹצֲצוּ הַבָּנִים בְּקִרְבָּהּ וַתֹּאמֶר אִם כֵּן לָמָּה זֶּה אָנֹכִי וַתֵּלֶךְ לִדְרשׁ אֶת יְהֹוָה:

23And the Lord said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two kingdoms will separate from your innards, and one kingdom will become mightier than the other kingdom, and the elder will serve the younger.
Hithpo`el reciprocal, Imperfect3masculine plural וִיִּתְרֹצְצוּ הַבָּנִים בְּקִרְבָּהּ Genesis 25:22 (J) the children crushed (thurst, struck) one another within her.
Strong's Hebrew: 7533. רָצַץ (ratsats) -- to crush

I wish I could find the Artscroll Tanakh translation. Based on the current JPT and outdated 1917 JPS, it looks to me like these kind of expressions (broken or crushed) reflect typical Jewish translations, but I accept that there are other senses too as we have described. If I found scholars openly saying that the JPT translation on the verse has been rejected by the Jewish community, of course I wouldn't consider their translation to be typical anymore.

Peace.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I agree. That is why I said "in some sense". I meant that there are different senses of the word in Isaiah 42:4 (break, oppress, crush, bruise), and that Maimonides was using some sense of this.
You said that Jews and christians agree that the messiah would be crushed in some sense. But The word has so many meanings that "crushed in some sense" useless. You could have said "Christians and Jews agree that the messiah would be bent in some sense." What does that even mean?
Why are you telling me to use a Christian Bible database when you already criticized me for using 1917 JPS because it has KJV influence? Imagine if I had opened up this thread with 20 different Christian Bible versions of the word yaruts how much objection you would be giving me, Rosends.
I'm telling you that selecting one translation and asking if it represents some line of theological thought is like picking any singular translation. By selecting that one translation and that one understanding of the word, you ARE just tapping into Christian bible understandings.
My goal in this thread is not to dispute against the Jewish translations or debate the question of Messiah's suffering, but rather to focus on Maimonides' and others' views of Messiah's death based on Isaiah 42:4.
If you wanted to discuss the Jewish idea that the Messiah is mortal and will die, you didn't need to begin with an assertion about Jews and Christians agreeing about his being "crushed."
Genesis 25:22 (JPT) does say "struggled", in the sense the two children stuck together are physically fighting, striking, or hurting eachother:
It says nothing about physically fighting, striking or hurting. It says struggled. You asked for a textual use of the root to mean something other than what you listed. I found it and so you are now trying to recontextualize the word to imply what you mean.


I wish I could find the Artscroll Tanakh translation. Based on the current JPT and outdated 1917 JPS, it looks to me like these kind of expressions (broken or crushed) reflect typical Jewish translations, but I accept that there are other senses too as we have described. If I found scholars openly saying that the JPT translation on the verse has been rejected by the Jewish community, of course I wouldn't consider their translation to be typical anymore.
I'll type in exactly what the Artscroll Stone edition of the Tanach has (page 1027)
"He will not slacken or tire until he sets justice in the land and islands will long for his teaching."
 

Rakovsky

Active Member
Thanks for quoting Artscroll, Rosends.
Like I said, I didn't come here to debate. I think that yaruts probably means crush, bruise, break, oppress, or a related meaning, based on Strong's, JPT, 1917 JPS, its use in other Biblical verses, and Maimonides' conclusion that this clause points to Messiah's death. It doesn't look like you agree with me, and I see that Artscroll gives "tire". OK. I respect that this is your view. I don't want to focus on the trees and miss the forest in this thread.

Would you agree that the Tanakh makes prophecies about Messiah, his life and experiences, and the apocalyptic era, such as resurrection of the dead?
If so, then may I ask if you know of evidence besides what Tumah pointed out about the Sanhedrin's approval of the prophets, or articles besides Diskin's on this topic?


Regards.
 

Rakovsky

Active Member
If you wanted to discuss the Jewish idea that the Messiah is mortal and will die, you didn't need to begin with an assertion about Jews and Christians agreeing about his being "crushed."
The reason I brought it up was because this was what Maimonides pointed to for his assertion that Messiah will die and his description of it. I recognized that there could be different translations or understandings of what this verse was talking about, so I added "in some sense".
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Would you agree that the Tanakh makes prophecies about Messiah, his life and experiences, and the apocalyptic era, such as resurrection of the dead?
If so, then may I ask if you know of evidence besides what Tumah pointed out about the Sanhedrin's approval of the prophets, or articles besides Diskin's on this topic?


Regards.
Whether the text makes prophecies about the messiah is a very complex question. Statements in the text have a variety of levels and understandings and in some cases, certain sections are understood sometimes as being references to something akin to a future messiah and a messianic age. However, it is not easy, clear or simple. There are certain prophecies which are generally understood to be the sine qua nons of a messianic era but statements about "his life and experiences" are subject to debate and interpretation. If you want resources on this topic, there are a variety of websites and books which go through lots of ideas but you have to go in with the understanding that looking at the end result of textual discussion, as if that will give you a final and singularly accepted answer, is a fruitless venture.
 

Rakovsky

Active Member
I am not sure if you are suggesting that Maimonides only meant "Messiah will die" as a conditional possibility, because "if one reads R. Saadia Gaon, one understands that the conditions required for the Rambam's understanding to take place might not happen."

I am not sure if you are referring to R. Saadia Gaon's teaching where Wikipedia says about Messiah ben Joseph:
If necessary, Messiah ben Joseph will wage war against the evil forces and die in combat with the enemies of God and Israel.[7] According to Saadia Gaon the need for his appearance will depend on the spiritual condition of the Jewish people. ... After going over this sequence of events Saadia Gaon states that Messiah ben Joseph will only need to appear if Israel does not repent. If needed Messiah ben Joseph will rectify the conditions of the nations. He could be like one who purges with fire the grave sinners among the nations. Or for those who have committed lesser infractions he would wash away those sins with lye. ... In a Responsum about Redemption Hai Gaon also asserts that Messiah ben Joseph will be found in Upper Galilee.
Messiah ben Joseph - Wikipedia
I would feel like I were going too far out on a limb if I thought you were asserting that Maimonides was saying that Messiah Ben David would die as a condition of lack of repentance. So maybe you can please say more what you mean in the underlined part above that it's only a conditional possibility?
 
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Rakovsky

Active Member
Maybe I added crushed "in some sense" meaning crushed in the sense of discouraged or tired out, etc. because I was aware that many Jews reject the concept of a suffering Messiah. I recognized that was an extra topic outside of my goal for the thread, which was instead to talk about Maimonides and his conclusion about Messiah's death from Isaiah 42.

I understood Maimonides' quote as saying that Messiah would in fact die because he was mortal ("as all men") and as saying that Isaiah 42 predicts this when it talks about yaruts (my memory of the word being "crushed" as I found in outdated 1917 JPS), which could be interpreted in different senses. That was all I meant in the OP, Rosends.
:innocent:
 
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Rakovsky

Active Member
Whether the text makes prophecies about the messiah is a very complex question. Statements in the text have a variety of levels and understandings and in some cases, certain sections are understood sometimes as being references to something akin to a future messiah and a messianic age. However, it is not easy, clear or simple. There are certain prophecies which are generally understood to be the sine qua nons of a messianic era but statements about "his life and experiences" are subject to debate and interpretation. If you want resources on this topic, there are a variety of websites and books which go through lots of ideas but you have to go in with the understanding that looking at the end result of textual discussion, as if that will give you a final and singularly accepted answer, is a fruitless venture.
^Good summary.
I am primarily interested in the underpinnings for the underlined part in this thread.
I get that there are some Messianic prophecies. For me, they are very appealing, and I would like for them to be true.
A famous apocalyptic prophecy of resurrection is in Isaiah 26 about Israel's righteous deceased.

So I am looking for some reliable bases to personal believe that what they predict will in fact occur.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I am not sure if you are suggesting that Maimonides only meant "Messiah will die" as a conditional possibility, because "if one reads R. Saadia Gaon, one understands that the conditions required for the Rambam's understanding to take place might not happen."

I am not sure if you are referring to R. Saadia Gaon's teaching where Wikipedia says about Messiah ben Joseph:

I would feel like I were going too far out on a limb if I thought you were asserting that Maimonides was saying that Messiah Ben David would die as a condition of lack of repentance. So maybe you can please say more what you mean in the underlined part above that it's only a conditional possibility?
The eventual MB"D will die because he will be mortal. But if the messianic age develops through the MB"Y then he will die first because of the warfare and the being oppressed and such. The MB"D's death will not be one because of being "crushed" or oppressed.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
^Good summary.
I am primarily interested in the underpinnings for the underlined part in this thread.
I get that there are some Messianic prophecies. For me, they are very appealing, and I would like for them to be true.
A famous apocalyptic prophecy of resurrection is in Isaiah 26 about Israel's righteous deceased.

So I am looking for some reliable bases to personal believe that what they predict will in fact occur.
-He must build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
-He must gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel (Is. 43:5-6)
- He must usher in an era of world peace and bring an end to hatred, oppression, suffering and disease (Is. 2:4)
- He must spread the knowledge of the G-d of Israel, uniting the entire world as one (Zechariah 14:9)




How will we know the moshiach when he arrives?
What the Messiah is Supposed to Do.
Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

I can't explain why anyone should believe. That isn't the kind of thing that can be communicated. But also know that the Rambam wrote, “Neither the order of the occurrence of these events nor their precise detail is among the fundamental principles of the faith . . . one should wait and believe in the general conception of the matter.”
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Hello, Tumah!
I have enjoyed your correspondence with me. I understand that the elders were leaders in the formation of the Jewish religion, and so once they judged that the prophets passed their evaluations, of course as Maimonides said, Judaism definitely accepts the prophets as legitimate.

Further, I understand that the elders were wise, and thus they would tend to make good judgments about whether someone was a prophet or not. This is a good reason to trust the prophets.

Still, as a modern educated person, I have some uncertainty as to the prophets' overall reliability for other reasons. Do you recommend someone else I could ask or something else to read on this question of objectivity from our modern stance 2100-3500 years later?
No, I don't.

It seems to me that even if good natured, theologically correct ancient sages considered someone a prophet and according to the sages this was based on strict tests, that the prophet could turn out to be wrong sometimes, for different reasons, leading to unreliability.
As Maimonides and the Kuzari point out, our belief in the Torah is not based on the Torah but on the fact that our forefathers stood at Mt. Sinai and experienced prophetic Divine Revelation where G-d spoke to them according to how Moses prophesied. Its by virtue of our ancestors' testimony of of their personal experience at Mt Sinai that was transmitted to us by our tradition, that we believe that the Torah is true - not by virtue of the content of the Torah. That forms the basis of other beliefs including how and when to believe other claimed prophets.

I'm not sure if that's something that can be transmitted to someone whose own ancestors didn't have that experience. I wouldn't expect you to believe in Jesus or Muhammad either without having any ancestors personally experiencing G-d speaking to them. I guess you'll have to decide for yourself whether the Sinaitic event happened and work from there.

To give some examples, I can see how the Lord was inspiring the writing of the Torah with its groundbreaking supreme morality. But when I get to the Creation story and the story of Noah's ark, it leaves me with misgivings. The JPT translation of Genesis 1 sounds like it is describing the earth's plants as created before the sun and moon were created:
This may be attributed to a problem with the Christian tradition. I'm not sure if there are any Rabbinical commentaries that take the Gensis account literally. The major ones such as Maimonides and Nachmanides certainly don't.
To quote Nachmanides:
Because in the beginning, G-d who is the Creator, the Owner of all strengths, created the heavens and the earth. Meaning to say, from absolute zero-ness and complete nothing, a point smaller than a seed of mustard and that is the heavens and the earth and everything in them. And another point, the land and everything in it. And they are the hyle of the heavns and the hyle of the earth. And from there onward, He did not create any thing but rather brought out ex materia...

And the subject of the Creation is sealed and I do not know it. And if I did know it, it would be prohibited for me to give a sermon about it in public, except for the explanation of this verse because they are mistaken in the word היתה...
The Talmud also makes statements that indicate the early rabbis didn't take the Creation narrative as described in Genesis 1 literally. For example:

And Rav Yehudah said in the name of Rav, 'At the time the Holy One Blessed be He created the world, it was continuously widening like two spools of yarn until the Holy One Blessed be He scolded it and [made it] stand still as it says, "The pillars of the heavens trembled and are astonished from His rebuke (Job 26:11)"'. And that is like what Reish Lakish said, 'What is [that which is] written, "I am E-L Sh-ddai (Gen. 17:1)"? I am He that said to the world 'Enough!'
In case I am reading that wrongly, another problem is Noah's ark's account. It sounds like Torah is saying that about 3500 years ago, the whole world was covered with water for at least 40 days, during which Noah packed two of every animal species into his ark, after which those couples repopulated the earth over the course of the next c. 1500 years. The account seems to go against my understanding of biology and geology.
Although our tradition gives us an account quite different than what is literally described, the concept of the flood does exist and as it was miraculous. Jewish sources describe a complete upheaval to nature as we know it. Without knowing the nature of the miraculous conditions during the flood or the way G-d returned nature to its present state, there's no way to know what we should expect to find.

But I'm not really sure what to tell you. From my perspective, science came around to more closely resemble Jewish tradition on other things and either one day they'll find something new that reinterprets their understanding until that point or they won't. It would be foolish of me to throw out my belief in G-d, because today science says the universe always existed in contradiction to the Torah, when tomorrow they might say that there was a Big Bang. Or that the Flood never happened, when tomorrow they might realize it did.


So even though I accept the sages' and Torah's wisdom, moral truths, and basic correctness in its theology, it leaves me with confusion over how they could accept some things as factual that so strongly contradict my understanding of biology and geology. I admire Judaism's theology and teachings like rejection of idolatry that set it apart and above other ancient nations' religions, but in some ways like the creation stories and the use of prophets it seems a bit like those other religions in its operation. This is why I look for some evidence and reasons for myself to trust the Tanakh's predictions as objectively reliable.

I'm not really sure what to tell you. You'll have to look to your own Byzantine tradition for answers. I don't think our tradition will help you maintain yours.
 

Rakovsky

Active Member
You said that Jews and christians agree that the messiah would be crushed in some sense. But The word has so many meanings that "crushed in some sense" useless. You could have said "Christians and Jews agree that the messiah would be bent in some sense." What does that even mean?
To answer your question to me, I agree that bending the Messiah would sound strange. It would suggest that he had some weight put on him that made him bend over. So I would prefer to have some Bible translation put it that way before using it. Is there an online Hebrew Dictionary that you like best, Rosends? That will help me in the future in case people object to Strong's.

The only idea of "bending" of Messiah that comes to mind is from the Pesikta Rabbati, when it says:
[Chapter 36]
[At the time of the Messiah’s creation], the Holy One, blessed be He, will tell him in detail what will befall him: There are souls that have been put away with thee under My throne, and it is their sins which will bend thee down under a yoke of iron and make thee like a calf whose eyes grow dim with suffering, and will choke thy spirit as with a yoke; because of the sins of these souls thy tongue will cleave to the roof of thy mouth.
...
2. During the seven–year period preceding the coming of the son of David, iron beams will be brought and loaded upon his neck until the Messiah’s body is bent low.

SOURCE: Pesikta Rabbati, William G, Braude, Translator (New Haven: Yale University, 1968), Volume II
In case you disagree with that translation, you can find the Hebrew here:
Pesikta Rabbati 36:1 | Sefaria

I heard that Pesikta Rabbati is not a major rabbinical text, so I am not suggesting here that it's typical, only that it's the only instance that comes to mind.
 

Rakovsky

Active Member
I can't explain why anyone should believe. That isn't the kind of thing that can be communicated.
That makes it sound appealing and fascinating, like a somewhat cryptic great Truth.

The prophecies are extremely apealing to me, because I want there to be ultimate merciful justice, but I know that just because something is appealing doesn't make it factually true.

Some truths I would also agree can't be properly communicated. I know from my own experience that my own soul exists. But I don't know how I could conclusively prove this truth to anyone outside my own body, other than, eg. the Lord.

It makes sense what he says:
But also know that the Rambam wrote, “Neither the order of the occurrence of these events nor their precise detail is among the fundamental principles of the faith . . . one should wait and believe in the general conception of the matter.”

So I support there being "an era of world peace and bring an end to hatred, oppression, suffering", and I know that the Lord can do this, and I know that it's prophesied, but at this point I don't absolutely know that it will really happen, not living yet in that era and not being a prophet. I have a sense of uncertainty about this, unfortunately, that I would rather avoid. Being drawn to an end to hatred and oppression myself, I am drawn to the prophecy. It seems to me that Maimonides is going further than that in your quote and saying that one has to believe that these kinds of things will actually come to pass.
 

Rakovsky

Active Member
You gave a second good reason here:
No, I don't.
. Its by virtue of our ancestors' testimony of of their personal experience at Mt Sinai that was transmitted to us by our tradition, that we believe that the Torah is true - not by virtue of the content of the Torah. That forms the basis of other beliefs including how and when to believe other claimed prophets.
That is, the reason of trust. You trust your own ancestors, and have a reason to conclude therefore that their stories to you as their descendant must be true.

I'm not sure if that's something that can be transmitted to someone whose own ancestors didn't have that experience.
I believe so, in that the medium is trust and it's like that of a relative. Your reason above was that you trust what your parents tell you and pass down for you. One also trusts their close relative like a wife. You could be transmitted truths through a spouse. A transmission based on trust can come not only from parents and spouses but others where there is the same basis of love. This does not have to be literal siblings either. Native Americans have a concept of "blood brothers", even in cases where individuals are not literal brothers from birth. So to answer the question you raise, I do believe that the same kind of transmission can occur that you describe even lacking biological parentage.

Unfortunately, I am not sure of the reliability of this either. One greatly trusts their parents and spouses and, sometimes, closest friends, but I am not sure that this objectively means that the religious traditions that they pass down like actually meeting the Lord and sitting at his feet must be literally and factually true. I notice for example, that some educated Jews today don't take the story on Mount Sinai that way despite being raised in the tradition. In saying this, by the way, I don't mean to dismiss the tradition as a mere legend, either. I am actually looking for good reasons to believe it.

I guess you'll have to decide for yourself whether the Sinaitic event happened and work from there.
My guess, but not my preference or a view I am advocating, might be that it's fiction based on fact. One reason is that you said that the Creation story is allegorical, not fact. That seems to open the door to the Sinai experience being allegorical too, due to the extreme, miraculous nature of both events. Another reason is that I am sympathetic to the rhetoric I have heard in a countermissionary context that the Lord is not a man, doesn't have a body or body parts. But in the story of Sinai, the Lord is described as having body parts like actual feet. So this kind of premise inclines me to think that the Lord's appearance on Mt Sinai, eg. with his feet, the finger with which he wrote the Torah, etc., were allegorical. My preferred view though is that this actually occurred.

This may be attributed to a problem with the Christian tradition. I'm not sure if there are any Rabbinical commentaries that take the Gensis account literally.
The Church fathers also expressed reservations about how literally to take the stories of Creation. Augustine says that no one knows what the first days of Creation were like, since man did not exist yet. My guess would be that in 30 AD to 500 AD there would be some broad resemblances between how literally Christians and Jews took these stories.

I don't feel that Eastern Orthodoxy dictates to me that I must accept a literal Creation in the sense of the "Seven Day Young Earth Theory". But in reading the text for myself, my impression is that it is saying that there was a chronological order in the Creation of the earth, whereby the plants were created on a day preceding the sun. Even if I say that a "day" is a figure of speech and not literal, it's hard for me to understand this passage as intended to mean something totally different than it's plain meaning. I don't know what allegorical meaning to give the word "day" in Genesis, such that the plants were created on some "day" preceding the sun.

This is a good example of the kind of difficulty I have:
Although our tradition gives us an account quite different than what is literally described, the concept of the flood does exist and as it was miraculous. Jewish sources describe a complete upheaval to nature as we know it. Without knowing the nature of the miraculous conditions during the flood or the way G-d returned nature to its present state, there's no way to know what we should expect to find.
I believe in miracles, but the teaching that nature, geology, and biology were changed temporarily so far beyond my current understanding of it is a challenge for me to accept. "How did bird species travel to New Zealand, become flightless, and severely distinguish themselves from all other species in only a few thousand years or less?" is the kind of question that arises.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, and I don't see this as ruling out the Messianic prophecies as impossible, either.

But I'm not really sure what to tell you.
So far you already gave two reasonable answers- the elders' tests and the transmitting of trust down through loving generations of relatives.

From my perspective, science came around to more closely resemble Jewish tradition on other things and either one day they'll find something new that reinterprets their understanding until that point or they won't. It would be foolish of me to throw out my belief in G-d, because today science says the universe always existed in contradiction to the Torah, when tomorrow they might say that there was a Big Bang. Or that the Flood never happened, when tomorrow they might realize it did.
AFAIK scientists are not unanimous on the big bang theory or on the idea of a constantly existing universe.

Do you want to give an example of how: "science came around to more closely resemble Jewish tradition on other things".

Sure, science can be wrong. They used to treat diseases with bloodletting. It's nuts.

So, I suppose that the plants could be made before the sun, and Noah's ark story could be literally true, but those are the kinds of things hard for me to accept when I try to think about what's most likely to reflect reality.

I'm not really sure what to tell you. You'll have to look to your own Byzantine tradition for answers. I don't think our tradition will help you maintain yours.
You gave decent answers.
I sense that these traditions give some similar explanations on reasons for believing in the Tanakh. Since it's written by the Jewish community and I find Jews to often be quite thoughtful and give a different, fresh (for me) perspective, I wanted to write here about it.

One way the Eastern Orthodox tradition might try to confirm the reliability is to point to examples of people who are like prophets in the centuries after the Bible was written, and to conclude from this that the gift exists. To give an analogy, if famous Jewish rabbis or mystics could be found who made reliable, fulfilled prophecies in the modern era, this would be evidence that a gift of prophetic prediction probably exists. Another way they might try to do this is to look at prophecies from the Bible fulfilled for certain after the Bible was written. So if Daniel predicted that after 50 BC-50 AD the Temple and city would get devastated and then the prophecy was fulfilled, they would see this as further evidence that these kinds of ancient prophecies were real. Maybe some similar logic exists in Jewish tradition to buttress the prophetic claims?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
To answer your question to me, I agree that bending the Messiah would sound strange. It would suggest that he had some weight put on him that made him bend over. So I would prefer to have some Bible translation put it that way before using it. Is there an online Hebrew Dictionary that you like best, Rosends? That will help me in the future in case people object to Strong's.

The only idea of "bending" of Messiah that comes to mind is from the Pesikta Rabbati, when it says:

In case you disagree with that translation, you can find the Hebrew here:
Pesikta Rabbati 36:1 | Sefaria

I heard that Pesikta Rabbati is not a major rabbinical text, so I am not suggesting here that it's typical, only that it's the only instance that comes to mind.
The medieval medrashic work is fascinating but not exactly an authoritative text on the exact nature of God's conversations with a messianic figure. Regardless, I'm curious about the source of the translation. To my understanding, the Hebrew translates (just an example for now) to:
ואומר הללו שגנוזים הם אצלך עונותיהם עתידים להכניסך בעול ברזל
And he says that they are stored/hidden away next to you, their sins are destined to have you enter with an iron yoke

Nothing about bending, just about responsibility.

The second quote reads "מביאים קורות של ברזל ונותנים לו על צוארו עד שנכפפה קומתו"
They bring "korot" of iron and place them on his neck until his height is "kafuf",curved. Korot means a girder/beam, and also "the happenings" and "komah" is height or stature. If you read the rest it is about the messianic figure understanding the suffering God has endured since the destruction of the temple once God puts the awareness of that history on his shoulders. ("עכשיו יהא צער שלך כצער שלי שמיום שעלה נבוכדנצר הרשע והחריב את ביתי ושרף את היכלי והגלה את בניי לבין האומות העולם חייך וחיי ראשי שלא (הכנסתי) [נכנסתי] לכסא שלי ואם אין אתה מאמין ראה טל שעלה על ראשי שנאמר שראשי נמלא טל קוצותי רסיסי לילה (שה"ש ה' ב') באותה השעה אמר לפניו רבונו של עולם עכשיו נתיישבה דעתי דיו לעבד שיהא כרבו") so "bent" in any literal sense is still a stretch.
 
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