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Satan in Christianity

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Did God create the Devil? I believe the scriptural answer is no. Of Jehovah, Deuteronomy 32:4,5 declares; "The Rock, perfect is his activity,For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he. They are the ones who have acted corruptly.They are not his children, the defect is their own."
All intelligent creatures have the ability to make moral choices. Some perfect creatures, human and spirit, willfully chose to rebel against their Creator. Satan is foremost, and by lying slander made himself a devil (slanderer) and by opposing God, a Satan (resister). Imperfect humans likewise often choose to become murderers, slanderers, thieves, etc. They made themselves such by their actions, IMO. They were not born such, but failed to "reject the bad and choose the good". (Isaiah 7:16)
Where does Scripture say that Satan rebelled again HaShem, and why would he?

Angels cannot sin like humans can sin, as they do not have the evil inclination. They can make mistakes, but this is different to sin.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
How does Judaism view Satan? I am most familiar with Satan as a counsellor in the book of Job.
Judaism views Satan as one of G-d's angels whose task is to try to cause people to stumble. He also acts as a sort of attorney. Your reading of Job seems accurate.
 
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rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Where does Scripture say that Satan rebelled again HaShem, and why would he?

Angels cannot sin like humans can sin, as they do not have the evil inclination. They can make mistakes, but this is different to sin.
Angels can indeed sin, according to the Bible.(2 Peter 2:4)
Jesus said (to false religious leaders who opposed Jesus) regarding Satan: "You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." (John 8:44) The Bible reveals it was inordinate, arrogant pride that caused Satan to resist God.(1 Timothy 3:6) By his seducing the first human couple, I believe Satan bears responsibility for their (and our) deaths, and thereby became a murderer when he began his wicked course.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Angels can indeed sin, according to the Bible.(2 Peter 2:4)
Jesus said (to false religious leaders who opposed Jesus) regarding Satan: "You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." (John 8:44) The Bible reveals it was inordinate, arrogant pride that caused Satan to resist God.(1 Timothy 3:6) By his seducing the first human couple, I believe Satan bears responsibility for their (and our) deaths, and thereby became a murderer when he began his wicked course.
According to Christianity, okay.

Have you any Tnach verses?
 
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rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
According to Christianity, okay.

Do you have any Tnach verses?
The Angels that sinned are identified as "the sons of the true God [who] began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose." (Genesis 6:2) I believe these were spirit sins of God, who were present "when [God] founded the earth...When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause."
These angels left their proper habitation to engage in unnatural sexual relations with human women. The result was violent giant offspring described at Genesis 6:4; "The Nephʹi·lim were on the earth in those days and afterward. During that time the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men, and these bore sons to them. They were the mighty ones of old times, the men of fame." The earth became filled with violence until God destroyed the Nephilim in the global deluge. The Angels who sinned apparently were forced to return to the spirit realm.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
The Angels that sinned are identified as "the sons of the true God [who] began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose." (Genesis 6:2) I believe these were spirit sins of God, who were present "when [God] founded the earth...When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause."
These angels left their proper habitation to engage in unnatural sexual relations with human women. The result was violent giant offspring described at Genesis 6:4; "The Nephʹi·lim were on the earth in those days and afterward. During that time the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men, and these bore sons to them. They were the mighty ones of old times, the men of fame." The earth became filled with violence until God destroyed the Nephilim in the global deluge. The Angels who sinned apparently were forced to return to the spirit realm.
There are many explanations given for these verses and, being new to this theology, I don't feel qualified to explain. A Jew could provide you with a better answer than I. Interesting citations though.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
The Angels that sinned are identified as "the sons of the true God [who] began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose." (Genesis 6:2) I believe these were spirit sins of God, who were present "when [God] founded the earth...When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause."
These angels left their proper habitation to engage in unnatural sexual relations with human women. The result was violent giant offspring described at Genesis 6:4; "The Nephʹi·lim were on the earth in those days and afterward. During that time the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men, and these bore sons to them. They were the mighty ones of old times, the men of fame." The earth became filled with violence until God destroyed the Nephilim in the global deluge. The Angels who sinned apparently were forced to return to the spirit realm.

OK, several different issues here. First, @Rival was correct when she said that angels can make mistakes. And making mistakes is a type of sin, so there's really no difference there. Just a matter of degree.

Second, I don't know if the Tanakh has any mention of angels making mistakes. IIRC, my rabbi said that the angels sinned at various times when they cried out to G-d. I found a reference on askmoses.org about angels sinning with references to the Talmud. Do angels have Freedom of Choice? - philosophy free choice

Third, you're mistranslating the Hebrew words of G e n 6. The correct translation is the sons of nobles.

G e n 6:2 That the sons of the nobles saw the daughters of man when they were beautifying themselves, and they took for themselves wives from whomever they chose.

These were the the sons of princes and judges, not angels.

G e n 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of the nobles would come to the daughters of man, and they would bear for them; they are the mighty men, who were of old, the men of renown.

The Nephilim were giant men that died out in the flood. Again, not angels.
 
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Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, several different issues here. First, @Rival was correct when he said that angels can make mistakes. And making mistakes is a type of sin, so there's really no difference there. Just a matter of degree.

Second, I'm not sure if the Tanakh has any mention of angels making mistakes. IIRC, my rabbi said that the angels sinned at various times when they cried out to G-d. I found a reference on askmoses.org about angels sinning with references to the Talmud. Do angels have Freedom of Choice? - philosophy free choice

Third, you're mistranslating the Hebrew words of G e n 6. The correct translation is the sons of nobles.

G e n 6:2 That the sons of the nobles saw the daughters of man when they were beautifying themselves, and they took for themselves wives from whomever they chose.

These were the the sons of the princes and judges, not angels.

G e n 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of the nobles would come to the daughters of man, and they would bear for them; they are the mighty men, who were of old, the men of renown.

The Nephilim were giant men that died out in the flood. Again, not angels.
Both biologically and mentally, I am a she :p
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Genesis 3:15 says; "And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel." IMO, this is obviously a prophecy as to the final outcome to Satan and his "seed" or followers. Revelation 12:9 identifies Satan the devil as the original serpent. An animal serpent has no ability to speak and certainly no knowledge of God.
It is true Jehovah is almighty, and can prevent Satan from thwarting God's purposes. However, I believe Satan challenged God's right to rule his Creation, not his power. Satan claims God's Sovereignty does not benefit mankind, and further claims man only serves Jehovah out of self-interest. This was the challenge he made regarding Job, and by extension, every person. I believe Jehovah has allowed a limited time for Satan to try to prove his scurrilous slanders. Man's history demonstrates to all that happiness depends on submitting to God, not Satan. God's permission of wickedness does not make him responsible for the wicked acts of others, especially Satan's. I believe in his due time Jehovah will undo all the harm Satan and wicked, imperfect people have caused.
Can you explain why it's "obvious"? For how many hundreds of years this is not how Jews interpreted it. Plus, you leave out the "crawling on your belly" part. If you can only use only part of the verse as a "prophesy", then for me it makes it hard to believe it is a prophesy.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why should sons of nobles produce giant offspring? No, as many translations agree:
"the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose."
Complete Jewish Bible
"That the bnei HaElohim saw the banot HaAdam that they were tovot; and they took them nashim of all which they chose."
Orthodox Jewish Bible
All the translations I checked say the same: Sons of God or similar.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Can you explain why it's "obvious"? For how many hundreds of years this is not how Jews interpreted it. Plus, you leave out the "crawling on your belly" part. If you can only use only part of the verse as a "prophesy", then for me it makes it hard to believe it is a prophesy.
As to the literal serpent, "God created serpents, and Adam had apparently given serpents their name before Satan’s deceptive act. The unreasoning serpent that spoke to Eve was not to blame. It would have been unaware that Satan was manipulating it, and it could not understand the judgment that God rendered against the disobedient parties.

Why, then, did God speak of the serpent’s physical abasement? The behavior of a serpent in its natural environment, crawling on its belly and flicking its tongue as if to lick up dust, fittingly symbolized Satan’s debased condition. Having previously enjoyed a lofty position as one of God’s angels, he was consigned to the lowly condition referred to in the Bible as Tartarus.—2 Peter 2:4.

Further, as a literal serpent might wound a man’s heel, Satan in his debased state would ‘bruise the heel’ of God’s “seed.” (Genesis 3:15) The primary part of that seed proved to be Jesus Christ, who temporarily suffered at the hands of Satan’s agents. But the symbolic serpent’s head will, in time, be permanently crushed by Christ and his resurrected anointed Christian companions. (Romans 16:20) Thus, God’s directing his curse toward the visible serpent aptly pictured the debasement and ultimate destruction of the invisible “original serpent,” Satan the Devil." (w07 6/15 p. 31)
 
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