At some point both become equally important...for example when Christ came and with is return.
Best wishes
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Abomination of Desolation
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
At some point both become equally important...for example when Christ came and with is return.
Best wishes
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Who said I did not look back, and check against prophecy? I did and learned the fact that the little horn of Daniel 7:8 did not arise until the eighteenth century AD, and the King of the North's Tabernacle was set up in 1947-9 as per Daniel 11:45, so the Judgement of Daniel 12 and the second coming is not yet!
Btw, which Nation is it you understand to have been or is the little horn of Daniel 7:8, and your reasons for believing so?
Btw, which Nation is it you understand to have been or is the little horn of Daniel 7:8, and your reasons for believing so?
Reggie Miller
Well-Known Member
The important thing is to get right with God. If you don't do that you are going to hell regardless of what any prophecy means or doesn't mean.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
At some point both become equally important...for example when Christ came and with is return.
Best wishes
Understanding prophecy helps with making decisions -and keeping God's commandments rather than those of men who do not have authority to change commandments are part of the basis for God's decisions.
Many will be taken by surprise because they do not understand prophecy -and some will not escape things which come to pass because the believe and do the wrong things.
A great multitude will be saved out of "great tribulation" after experiencing it -and some will serve God in the tribulation, but those who faithfully do the daily now -teach and keep the commandments of God -including the biblical sabbath and annual sabbaths of God, prophesy correctly as led by God, preach the gospel of the kingdom before the end, etc., are those who will go to safety as great tribulation occurs on Earth.
The daily is taken away 1,290 days before the abomination of desolation.
It is taken away at about the time of the beginning of the reign of the beast.
The abomination is at about the end of his reign.
Between those events is essentially World War III.
Rev 12:14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Dan 7:25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev13:5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations
Rev 11:2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
At about the time the daily is taken and the beast begins to reign, the modern nation of Israel (Judah) is attacked by its neighbors, and the generally "western" nations of the "lost" ten tribes -the house of Israel -including Ephraim, Manasseh (Britain and the U.S. respectively), etc., are also attacked -both described as suddenly -at an instant. Unless certain things are addressed, the house of Israel will experience things similar to that which Judah experienced before inhabiting the holy land again -and afterward, those left of the house of Israel will also similarly return to the holy land.
I do not want these things to happen -I am not against any and would not work toward such -and my intent is to prevent it -but it is written.
Isaiah 29:1Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.
2Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
4And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
5Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.
12Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
14And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.
15For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
16But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.
17One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.
18And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.
19For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.
Isiaiah10:5O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
6I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Zech13:8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God
Jer 30:1The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 3For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Ezek 37:19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Amos9:9For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
Jer 18:5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Last edited:
Are the wicked going to ' hell ', or are they to be: destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
To me, the words from Jesus' mouth will execute (destroy) the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
I look at the history. The Jews generally did not recognise their Messiah because their expectation of the Returned Christ was based on literal fulfilment of prophecy.
Their King was not a warrior king like King David who would free them from the Romans but a Spiritual King.
The verses of Zechariah 14 illustrate the point. There is a man on the Mount of Olives whose mission will result in the separation of the Old and New Covenant. If we can not see Jesus in such verses then it seems unlikely we will see the returned Christ.
You can quote the book of revelation with enthusiasm but if you do not understand them, you repeat history.
That's excellent if you do consider the history. I had my sights aimed at an empire somewhat earlier. If you look to the history of Libya, Ethiopia, Egypt, and the Holy Land you shouldn't have too much trouble identifying the correct empire for Daniel 11:36-45. A study of the history including the empires leaders and lands occupied will assist to answer further questions. I don't believe what you are describing fits the prophecy.
Best Wishes
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
And I suppose you believe the year consists of 19 months, each having 19 days, with four or five days added to make equal to a Solar year?
And I suppose you believe the year consists of 19 months, each having 19 days, with four or five days added to make equal to a Solar year?
Some people will believe anything!
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Actually all belief falls short of truth, reality lies forever on the other side of belief. Nevertheless belief can serve a purpose as a mental representation of reality, which when realized, will result in the dropping away of the belief as reality is not divided, and can not be realized by the duality of a believer and belief.Some people will believe anything!
There is truth in your words. The ultimate reality of course concerns the realm of God. Jesus said "Seek and ye shall find" and "The truth shall set you free." This is where we need the Christ for He has said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Correct, but when you factor in his also saying that "The Father and I are one", the teaching is clearly one of non-duality. Jesus realized God, not as a belief, but as a reality. His mind was not dualistic in nature, though naturally he used dualistic language as an expedient to convey the reality that his mind was not merely conceiving that he and God were one, his mind was one with the mind of God.
There are certainly circumstances when the Father and Son are One, particularly in the Gospel John. However more commonly there is distinction between the Father and the Son.
I would argue that Jesus speaks as the Son, and days it is 'through' the Son we come to the Father.
Therefore there is distinction between the Father and Son, but of course no duality for the essence of reality is 'One.'
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Yes, the distinction of Father and Son is still is appropriate for minds that are not yet able to transcend the dualistic or conceptual way of thinking about themselves in relation to God. Christ was the Messiah, that was His mission, but there was no distinction in the mind of Jesus when meditating on the Father, the reality would not have been a divided one. I don't find anything contradictory about the transcendent journey from dualistic material reality, to non-dual reality. It is a journey within, and does not involve others in the direct sense. God is the source of the apparent all, the journey is one of Self discovery. So long as one thinks of themselves as separate from God, they can never enter into the Kingdom of God, for God is one and complete...there is no outside.
We're talking the same language. There is one reality and we are all part of the same reality. However there is distinction between the realms of the mineral, plant, animal, human, and God's manifesting Himself through Jesus. We're all part of the same creation for certain.
When Jesus spoke of His return as being like a thief in the night He indicated that not even He knew of His return, only the father. This brings us back to the topic of this thread. As we investigate the reality of His words we need to be careful to avoid wild speculation and to follow false prophets and teachers. However we needs to be ready to recognise His Return and the accompanying signs.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
I agree with you, however I do not consider my understanding wrt the prophecy of Daniel and Revelation wild speculation. It may be rough, but it is my best working model until I am shown to be wrong. I am always ready to listen to others' interpretation, and while I do not intentionally desire to hurt the feelings of JW, Bahai, Christian Zionists, etc., I see holes in their interpretation of what to expect. Mind you I have included in my understanding all that I consider reasonable from these other sources, for as I say, it is a work in progress, not to prophecy a date, but to be aware of what has been fulfilled and is in the process of being fulfilled.
When I mentioned wild speculation I was thinking more about those espousing the very literal fulfilment of apocalyptic texts and including lots of verses in the hope that I might be enlightened.
To be fair I have not fully considered your ideas as to how they might fit, just as you are probably not so interested in investigating how Baha'is might relate history to apocalyptic writings. I suspect we may be too attached to our respective understandings to seriously consider the other.
I actually think it is far more important to be able to converse with each other as compassionate, intelligent people than to convince each other of the merits or otherwise of our particular apocalyptic outlook.
In starting this thread I encouraged recognising Jesus in Daniel 9:24-27 as Christians and Baha'is believe in the same God, Jesus, and gospels. We agree that Jesus was the fulfilment of many prophecies in the Old Testament. If we are able to better understand how Jesus fulfils prophecy then we sharpen our spiritual perceptions to prepare us for the really hard stuff.
The empire I mentioned....
Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia
Umayyad dynasty | Islamic history
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Thank you for your polite post, I can not find flaw with the spirit of your intent to engage on the matters that are of interest to you. I am guilty of injecting into your thread a position on the prophecy of Daniel that pertains to verses that reflect my interest, so please forgive me. Peace...
Thank you and all good, You can appreciate that this thread could have gone all over the place had I responded to every verse that participants wanted discussed.
If you start a thread examining Daniel 11:45 I will happily contribute and provide my perspective.
In Jesus' final sermon on the Mount of Olives He refers to the "abomination of desolation"
Mathew 24:15-16
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"
What does this mean?
idolatry, worship any formed thing as equal to the Unformed Informer. worshipping an aspect, facet above another is respecting one form above/below another. the Infinite I cannot be defined as this vs that but this and that.