paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Regards
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Is Jesus the Son of God?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Regards
That's a good verse to illustrate your point, but neither Christians nor Baha'is would interpret the verse in such a manner. Rather at Christ's hour of need when He prayed with great fervour and anguish the Hand of God bestowed Great Grace and Comfort upon Christ to enable His life to be sacrificed for 'all' of us.
Why do you feel you need to interpret the verse from the Holy Quran so literally?
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"Rather at Christ's hour of need when He prayed with great fervour and anguish the Hand of God bestowed Great Grace and Comfort upon Christ to enable His life to be sacrificed for 'all' of us."
It never happened, that is why I don't buy it.
Jesus told the " wicked and adulterous generation" of Pharisees of Judaism that he wouldn't show them any sign except the sign of Jonah.
Didn't Jonah?:
1. went alive in the belly of the fish,
2. remained alive in the belly of fish,
3. came out alive from the belly of the fish,
4. and then went to his people to give them the message entrusted to him by God.
Jesus must not die on the Cross and could not die on the Cross, and must be delivered from the Cross alive, if Jesus was truthful and showed the "Sign of Jonah".
There is no similarity between a dead and a living. Right? Please
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Regards
psychoslice
Veteran Member
We are all the Sons of what we call God, we are all One in Consciousness, or as I like to call it the Source, religion only separates us and makes us crawl back to our true Self, and this is done through religion, the cause of illusion and separation.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"We are all the Sons of what we call God" only If we believe in the Revealed Word of ONE G-d as did Jacob (Yaqub) son of Abraham (Ibrahim) titled "Israel".
Not otherwise. Please
Regards
psychoslice
Veteran Member
No, its nothing to do with belief, we are that without belief, we are all ready there, its just through ignorance that we cannot see that.
The story of Jonah symbolises the crucifixion (going into the belly)
Physically dead (In the belly for 3 days)
Spiritual resurrection (Came out alive)
The 'Body of Christ' symbolises the Faithful community. It was the community of his Faithful followers that went from the death of hopeless, despair, and disbelief, to being filled with new life enabling them to spread the gospel far and wide.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes its all metaphors, each one of use resonates with whatever level we are, some see beyond the other, and some see below the other.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Did Jesus say it was a symbol only, and it won't happen in reality? Please quote from Jesus to support one's point of view.
Regards
The sacred texts of the Gospels is full of symbolism. It requires the reader to exercise discernment and wisdom to understand the passages.
What do you think is going on with these verses?
"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Matthew 12:38-41
Jesus was a highly skilled communicator but spoke in a way that only the pure in heart would understand.
For example with parables:
Mathew 13:10-17
"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them."
19:33 And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive.
3:55 And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to cause you to die and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
5:117 I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou were the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.
Just because you misunderstand this one Surah, why not read the rest of the Quran and Bible; he was prophesied to be put to death as God allowed it.....
4:157-158 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. No indeed, Allah raised him up to Him; and Allah has been Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise.
You need to take into account what this actually says, God was the one who allowed it, it wasn't their doing, they'd have had no authority unless it was permitted.
Matthew 16:21 From that time, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.
Matthew 17:22-23 Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up." And they were exceedingly sorrowful.
Matthew 20:18-19 Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.
Mark 8:31And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mark 9:31-32 For He taught His disciples and said to them, "The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day." But they did not understand this saying, and were afraid to ask Him.
Mark 10:33-34 Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles; and they will mock Him, and scourge Him, and spit on Him, and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.
Luke 9:21-22 And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
Luke 18:31-33 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again."
Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19) says he will be killed in each Synoptic Gospel....
We can also quote numerous prophecies as well saying he will be killed.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
The four gospels are not a first person narrative of Jesus life accounts.Matthew 16:21 From that time, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.
Matthew 17:22-23 Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up." And they were exceedingly sorrowful.
Matthew 20:18-19 Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.
Mark 8:31And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mark 9:31-32 For He taught His disciples and said to them, "The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day." But they did not understand this saying, and were afraid to ask Him.
Mark 10:33-34 Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles; and they will mock Him, and scourge Him, and spit on Him, and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.
Luke 9:21-22 And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
Luke 18:31-33 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again."
Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19) says he will be killed in each Synoptic Gospel....
We can also quote numerous prophecies as well saying he will be killed.
Jesus prayed the whole night before the crucifixion that he does not die on the Cross, and also asked his disciples to pray in this regards, as per NTBible. Jesus was well-versed in Torah.
None of the Jesus's 12 disciples was a witness of the event of Cross, they all fled way.
Regards
There never was any first person account; Yeshua didn't write a book; he was given the teachings which he called the Gospel (Good news), yet it was only orally recited and others wrote it down, just like the Quran.
So if that is your final answer, will remember not to post any texts to you from now on, as you're incapable of listening to evidence from either the Quran or Bible.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
That clearly states that Jesus was not to die on the Cross as per the above verse:
Quran Verse 19:33
Chapter (19) sūrat maryam (Mary)
Sahih International: And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."
There is no mention of Jesus' death on the Cross. Every human being passes three stages, is:
born,
dies,
and is risen again in the hereafter
No specialty is mentioned for Jesus.
Right? Please
Regards
He was raised alive; most people when they die, can go to Hell first....Angels can not, as they're to bright for Hell.
So the same with all the other verses in the Quran, whereas they thought they killed him, that God had abandoned him; it is the complete opposite, God caused it to look like his physical body had died on the cross, yet raised his soul up.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
He was raised alive; most people when they die, can go to Hell first....Angels can not, as they're to bright for Hell.
So the same with all the other verses in the Quran, whereas they thought they killed him, that God had abandoned him; it is the complete opposite, God caused it to look like his physical body had died on the cross, yet raised his soul up.
There is nothing in the verse that suggest that they Jesus was raised physically alive.
This could be explicitly understood from the following Verse about John the Baptist in the same chapter:
Verse (19:15)
Sahih International: And peace be upon him the day he was born and the day he dies and the day he is raised alive.
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
The words are the same about John as are for Jesus.
It proves that Jesus was not to die on the Cross and did not die on the Cross. Please
Regards
Beginning to question if
Who cares if he died on the cross or was stabbed in the side by a Roman garrison....Either way the Sanhedrin arranged for Yeshua to be murdered for 30 pieces of silver.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"3:55 And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to cause you to die and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed."19:33 And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive.
3:55 And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to cause you to die and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
5:117 I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou were the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.
Just because you misunderstand this one Surah, why not read the rest of the Quran and Bible; he was prophesied to be put to death as God allowed it.....
4:157-158 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. No indeed, Allah raised him up to Him; and Allah has been Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise.
You need to take into account what this actually says, God was the one who allowed it, it wasn't their doing, they'd have had no authority unless it was permitted.
There is nothing in the above verse that mentions that Jesus was to die on the Cross.
Jesus was to die like every human dies, a natural death.
Regards