Abomination of Desolation

Etritonakin said:

I'll try to address these later -but for now... Why would Christ have prophesied about it as a future event if it referred to something before he was even born?

Click to expand...

These verse are notoriously difficult to understand.

Christ referred to Daniel 9:24-27, not to Daniel 11:31. It is prophecies in Daniel 9:24-27 that he is about to fulfil, for example establishing the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31) and His Crucifixion. His crucifixion at the hands of His own people is an abomination as is the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

I have used 11:31 as a clear example of an abomination that has already happened. There is also abomination(s) in the far distant future from the time of Christ. That is touched on by some of the next verses of Matthew 24 as you suggest.

Best Wishes

adrianhindes said:

In regards to Daniel 11:45 they seem to refer to events in the Middle east but do not wish to speculate further.

In regards to the United Nations, this resulted from atrocities during the first and second world wars. Do we really want to return to a state of affairs where one nation can readily invade another? Law and order is a necessity for any country and we need better Governance in world affairs, not no governance.

Click to expand...

Given that the event of Daniel 11:45, whereby the temple is set up in the land between Jerusalem and the sea, which occupation is brought to desolation (read 'runs out of time') at some point after it is established, and which establishment and destruction is the prerequisite event that immediately precedes the judgement scenario of Daniel 12, I find the vagueness of your response telling.

And then to imagine the reincarnation of the very beast (League of Nations) that lead to WWII, the UN, is somehow now not interested in planetary dominance, the idea is ludicrous.

Please be patient and quote my words you disagree with, and address them in context, and not just offer passages of the bible I am quite familiar with, or other passages not germane to the gist of my post.

adrianhindes,
When Jesus spoke about the Abomination of desolation, at Matthew 24:15, Jesus was speaking about the Roman army that came to Jerusalem and laid siege to the city, in 66CE. They broke down some of the wall and had started to undermine the Temple. The army pulled back and left, but they came back in 70CE under General Titus and destroyed the city and the Temple.
They were given the name Abomination of Destruction, because of destroying the city. Also these Romans were Gentiles and were forbidden from being on the grounds of the Temple. There was a wall around the Temple that no gentile was to cross, called the Soreg. This is why the Abomination of Destruction was spoke about, Standing in the Holy Place.
Another point to consider; The Abomination of Destruction also is a prophecy that extends to our day and will be fulfilled when The United Nations, which is the Abomination, and it will shortly become the Eighth King, starts it's attack on Babylon the Great, Revelation 17:10-18. The Great Harlot riding on the back of the seven headed scarlet looked wild beast, is actually a representative of the World of false religion, with the Scarlet Colored beast representing all the nations of the earth. The Ten Horns represent the body of the beast, while the seventh head represents The Anglo-American world power. The Ten horns give their authority to the scarlet colored beast, which becomes the Eighth King, and shortly after the United Nations is given power by the Ten Kings, it starts a war against the Great Harlot, Babylon the Great, probably because they want to try to bring peace to the earth, and it is religions that have been the cause of most of the wars in our generation. The United Nations will have success, then they will make an all out on true religion, which means they come against Jesus. This will bring on Armageddon. After Armageddon the Thousand Year Judgement Day, during which the earth will be brought to a paradise, and most people who have died will be brought back in a resurrection. The people who live past the last test at the end of The Thousand Years, when Satan is released from the Abyss to test mankind, will be granted Everlasting Life, Revelation 20:1-10, 21:1-5. Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 37:29, Isaiah 65:7-25.

URAVIP2ME said:

I think my comment was in connection to the ' affairs ' of the world, and Not temple affairs.
At both the beginning and at the end of Jesus' ministry Jesus used his ' zeal ' for worship by clearing out the money-changers in the temple. - John 2:15-17; Psalms 69:9; Matthew 21:12-13 - that was Not political affairs.
If there was Roman manipulation from that corrupted temple arrangement, that was a religious fault.
Jesus and his followers always remained ' neutral ' to worldly affairs.
Even when the people wanted political office (king) for Jesus, Jesus ran away - John 6:15

Click to expand...

No....
The Great Temple was the centre of the Jewish World, and taxation of any kind is all about Government Policy = Politics.
Everything about Jesus's mission was about Fair Law, Fair Order, Fair Taxation, Anti-Corruption etc.
John's 'take' on Jesus was fairly distorted by the time that it was written circa 110-120AD. G-Mark gives a much clearer picture about Jesus and his intentions. Threre was never any talk of him being a King.

adrianhindes said:

These verse are notoriously difficult to understand.

Christ referred to Daniel 9:24-27, not to Daniel 11:31. It is prophecies in Daniel 9:24-27 that he is about to fulfil, for example establishing the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31) and His Crucifixion. His crucifixion at the hands of His own people is an abomination as is the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

I have used 11:31 as a clear example of an abomination that has already happened. There is also abomination(s) in the far distant future from the time of Christ. That is touched on by some of the next verses of Matthew 24 as you suggest.

Best Wishes

Click to expand...

Christ referred to the abomination of desolation specifically -not one who makes desolate on the wings of abominations, etc.

"The abomination of desolation" is placed/set up toward the end of the end times.

When Jerusalem is compasses by armies -plural -the desolation thereof is near -called the abomination of desolation in the other gospels which record different parts of the same words of Christ.
Christ clearly identified the abomination of desolation as being a desolation of Jerusalem which follows its being compassed by multiple armies in the end times.

The prophecies in the book of Daniel describe the course of world events until the return of Christ.
Much of it is about the end times and was sealed until the end times.
The last kingdom described in Nebuchadnezzar's dream is that of the beast -along with the ten kings under him -in the end time -who literally make war with the lamb and are literally overcome by the lamb. The kings of the east will have also moved to around Jerusalem to war with the beast and to claim land for themselves.

God will gather forces of all nations against Jerusalem -hence the armies which will compass it.

Also... The flight/fleeing will be during the greatest time of tribulation to ever occur -which is yet future.

adrianhindes said:

There were 490 years from when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was issued from Artaxerxes in 457 BC to when Christ was crucified at age 33. This makes up 490 years or seven times seventy days.
In Biblical terms each day is a year:
Numbers 14:34: The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan
Ezekiel 4:5-6: The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.
Therefore, 490 days are 490 years!
By the martyrdom of Christ the sacrifice is accomplished and the temple of Christ's destroyed. He is to become the new object of adoration and worship, and the Jewish temple is to be destroyed. These seventy weeks begin with the restoration and the rebuilding of Jerusalem, concerning which four edicts were issued by three kings:
The first was issued by Cyrus in the year 536 B.C.; this is recorded in the first chapter of the Book of Ezra. The second edict, with reference to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, is that of Darius of Persia in the year 519 B.C.; this is recorded in the sixth chapter of Ezra. The third is that of Artaxerxes in the seventh year of his reign—that is, in 457 B.C.; this is recorded in the seventh chapter of Ezra. The fourth is that of Artaxerxes in the year 444 B.C.; this is recorded in the second chapter of Nehemiah.
But Daniel refers especially to the third edict which was issued in the year 457 B.C. Christ was 33 when He was martyred and ascended. When you add 33 to 457, the result is 490, which is the time announced by Daniel for the coming of Christ.

Click to expand...

Since there would be 7 plus 62 weeks of years that would add up to or equal = 69 weeks of years.
The '69 weeks of years' in years adds up to 483 years.
Persian history establishes the rebuilding of Jerusalem as the year 455.
Persian King Artaxerxes authorized Nehemiah to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in the year 455
- Nehemiah 2:1-8
Those 483 years is 'Not in connection to Jesus' death' but to 'Jesus' baptism' as Messiah - Matthew 3:13-17

oldbadger said:

Threre was never any talk of him being a King.

Click to expand...

If there was never any talk about Jesus being king, then how does one explain John 6:14-15

When Jesus perceived that they would come and take him by force TO MAKE HIM KING he departed....
So, when Jesus knowing that the people came for him TO MAKE HIM KING Jesus withdrew......

URAVIP2ME said:

If there was never any talk about Jesus being king, then how does one explain John 6:14-15

Click to expand...

Easy one!
Ready?
John didn't know Jesus.
John made up a lot of stuff about Jesus.
John was written 80-90 years after the Jesus story.
You won't find anything about that in say, G-Mark.
Anybody who researches Jesus and his life knows that various folks often tried to gain power and win control of all. How do yiou think that the Herod's gained power?

If Jesus had won the people and gained control of most of Palestyine then I guess that the Romans would have done a deal with him.

Jesus didn't get anywhere near that.

When Jesus perceived that they would come and take him by force TO MAKE HIM KING he departed....
So, when Jesus knowing that the people came for him TO MAKE HIM KING Jesus withdrew......

Click to expand...

More John? I need help there....... source?

wizanda said:

The remnant you are referring to, are after the Tribulation; they're the ones who have accepted Yeshua.

What we're seeing currently with them taking back Israel by force, and a deal made with Babylon the Great, will soon end with sorrow.

Click to expand...

You need to parse it differently:

1) You sound like only the last remnant will be restored blessed. This is skipping the obvious, perpetual cycle of God redeeming and restoring His people over and again.

2) The 1948 return is not cursed. It is rather prophesied in numerous passages and is timed by God.

3) Yes, there is a covenant with death that is coming. There is a terrible Day of the Lord and a reckoning. We can change your soon to now if you can tell us who Antichrist is.

URAVIP2ME said:

Since there would be 7 plus 62 weeks of years that would add up to or equal = 69 weeks of years.
The '69 weeks of years' in years adds up to 483 years.
Persian history establishes the rebuilding of Jerusalem as the year 455.
Persian King Artaxerxes authorized Nehemiah to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in the year 455
- Nehemiah 2:1-8
Those 483 years is 'Not in connection to Jesus' death' but to 'Jesus' baptism' as Messiah - Matthew 3:13-17

Click to expand...

It is good to see someone addressing the question that is being proposed in the thread. It is easy to speculate about future events and how they may or may not fulfil prophecies. It is another matter to work out from the text how Daniel 9:24-27 is fulfilled.

I'm aware of the calculation being provided as a teaching within the Jehovah witness church. Here are the problems I see with this calculation:
(1) Daniel 9:25 refers specifically to the rebuilding of Jerusalem and not the wall, gate, and a house as with the decree you refer. Therefore I believe the correct decree is from Ezra 7 as this specifically refers to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The date for this decree was 457 B.C. I do not dispute the date 455 B.C provided but believe it is the wrong decree.
(2) Daniel 9:26 refers specifically to the crucifixion after the designated period. There is no mention of Jesus' Baptism at all in Daniel 9.
(3) The 69 weeks (483 years) you refer will also include another 1 week in Daniel 9:27. So it is just another way of referring to the 70 weeks (490 years), but breaking it down into 7 weeks (49 years) for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, then 62 weeks (434 years), and then the anointed one is cut off and the covenant is established in the final week (7 years). In this way the years that includes Christ's ministry are emphasised as well as the building of Jerusalem.

There is more I could say about the final week (seven years) from the prophecy but we need to agree on the above first.

Best wishes

ben d said:

Given that the event of Daniel 11:45, whereby the temple is set up in the land between Jerusalem and the sea, which occupation is brought to desolation (read 'runs out of time') at some point after it is established, and which establishment and destruction is the prerequisite event that immediately precedes the judgement scenario of Daniel 12, I find the vagueness of your response telling.

Click to expand...

In starting this thread I wanted to generate discussion about how Jesus fulfils prophecy in books such as Daniel. I have seen many Christians over the years speculate wildly about how Daniel and the book of revelation refers to events present and future without having any idea about how Jesus fulfilled this clear prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27.

ben d said:

And then to imagine the reincarnation of the very beast (League of Nations) that lead to WWII, the UN, is somehow now not interested in planetary dominance, the idea is ludicrous.

Click to expand...

The League of Nations was a first attempt to prevent another world war. It failed but had Woodrow Wilsons plan been adopted it probably would have succeeded. The United Nations has been much more successful. As countries need goods government for the economy, social services, infrastructure, and managing its borders so the international community needs good governance.

ben d said:

Please be patient and quote my words you disagree with, and address them in context, and not just offer passages of the bible I am quite familiar with, or other passages not germane to the gist of my post.

Click to expand...

I'm simply using scripture to reinforce my arguments. These are clear passages that refer to the Holy mountain and nations working together in peace.

Best Wishes

I enjoyed reading your thoughtful post and it raises some interesting issues:

Etritonakin said:

Christ referred to the abomination of desolation specifically -not one who makes desolate on the wings of abominations, etc.

"The abomination of desolation" is placed/set up toward the end of the end times.

Click to expand...

Would it be reasonable to say that there is more than one abomination of desolation? For example there is the specific case of the idol in the temple 168 B.C mention in Daniel 11:31. However the term is likely to take on a much broader significance in Daniel 9:26 and desolation(s) are mentioned.

Etritonakin said:

When Jerusalem is compasses by armies -plural -the desolation thereof is near -called the abomination of desolation in the other gospels which record different parts of the same words of Christ.
Christ clearly identified the abomination of desolation as being a desolation of Jerusalem which follows its being compassed by multiple armies in the end times.

Click to expand...

It seems likely that this is the desolation of abomination, or part thereof, as Jesus specifically refers to the destruction of the temple and the need for people to flee Judea. However Daniel 9:26 refers to the Messiah being cut off for the sake of the people. This most likely refers to the crucifixion of Jesus. Would it not be reasonable to see a profound connection between God's chosen people crucifying thier Messiah and the events that followed 66 - 70 AD? Daniel 9:27 suggests such a link.

Etritonakin said:

The prophecies in the book of Daniel describe the course of world events until the return of Christ.
Much of it is about the end times and was sealed until the end times.
The last kingdom described in Nebuchadnezzar's dream is that of the beast -along with the ten kings under him -in the end time -who literally make war with the lamb and are literally overcome by the lamb. The kings of the east will have also moved to around Jerusalem to war with the beast and to claim land for themselves.

Click to expand...

This is very important to distinguish between events that have happened and those that were prophecised for the more distant future. I'm deliberately focusing on what we know to have happened. With better understanding how Daniel relates to events that have already happened, then we are better able to consider any other claims about fulfilment of prophecy including the abomination of desolation(s).

Thank you

Thank you for your response

12jtartar said:

When Jesus spoke about the Abomination of desolation, at Matthew 24:15, Jesus was speaking about the Roman army that came to Jerusalem and laid siege to the city, in 66CE. They broke down some of the wall and had started to undermine the Temple. The army pulled back and left, but they came back in 70CE under General Titus and destroyed the city and the Temple.
They were given the name Abomination of Destruction, because of destroying the city. Also these Romans were Gentiles and were forbidden from being on the grounds of the Temple. There was a wall around the Temple that no gentile was to cross, called the Soreg. This is why the Abomination of Destruction was spoke about, Standing in the Holy Place.

Click to expand...

This is really useful and interesting history. Any other insights that might be derived from Daniel that would assist us better understand what Jesus meant?

12jtartar said:

Another point to consider; The Abomination of Destruction also is a prophecy that extends to our day and will be fulfilled when The United Nations, which is the Abomination, and it will shortly become the Eighth King, starts it's attack on Babylon the Great, Revelation 17:10-18. The Great Harlot riding on the back of the seven headed scarlet looked wild beast, is actually a representative of the World of false religion, with the Scarlet Colored beast representing all the nations of the earth. The Ten Horns represent the body of the beast, while the seventh head represents The Anglo-American world power. The Ten horns give their authority to the scarlet colored beast, which becomes the Eighth King, and shortly after the United Nations is given power by the Ten Kings, it starts a war against the Great Harlot, Babylon the Great, probably because they want to try to bring peace to the earth, and it is religions that have been the cause of most of the wars in our generation. The United Nations will have success, then they will make an all out on true religion, which means they come against Jesus. This will bring on Armageddon. After Armageddon the Thousand Year Judgement Day, during which the earth will be brought to a paradise, and most people who have died will be brought back in a resurrection. The people who live past the last test at the end of The Thousand Years, when Satan is released from the Abyss to test mankind, will be granted Everlasting Life, Revelation 20:1-10, 21:1-5. Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 37:29, Isaiah 65:7-25.

Click to expand...

It is important to realise the Book of Revelation and some Daniel refers to events after Christ, many of which relate to our current predicament. I certainly have some ideas about that this. However they differ in many ways from what you propose here. For now I wish to confine my discussions to Mathew 24:15-16 and Daniel 9:24-27.

Thanks again

adrianhindes said:

The League of Nations was a first attempt to prevent another world war. It failed but had Woodrow Wilsons plan been adopted it probably would have succeeded. The United Nations has been much more successful. As countries need goods government for the economy, social services, infrastructure, and managing its borders so the international community needs good governance.

I'm simply using scripture to reinforce my arguments. These are clear passages that refer to the Holy mountain and nations working together in peace.

Best Wishes

Click to expand...

There is Heaven and there is Earth, there is Spirit and there is Matter, and there is Life and there is Death, what is not true is the meme of Heaven on Earth, or any other meme conflating complementary opposites. The world's major powers of US, Europe, Russia, China, etc., all aspire to be the dominant player of UN New World Order, and thus war is unavoidable in the foreseeable future. Armageddon is coming and this is where God's plan of intervention will manifest as the prophetic judgement, and those that worshiped the 'Beast' that deceived the peoples of the Earth by promising peace will be punished, along with those who were not 'awake' to the underlying presence of the unspeakable glory of God.

I accept your present understanding of scripture concerning this subject, and merely point out what I see as the actual reality rather than the deception of peace on Earth coming as a result of the efforts of man. The Kingdom of God is not of this World.

adrianhindes said:

Here are the problems I see with this calculation:
(1) Daniel 9:25 refers specifically to the rebuilding of Jerusalem and not the wall, gate, and a house as with the decree you refer. Therefore I believe the correct decree is from Ezra 7 as this specifically refers to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The date for this decree was 457 B.C. I do not dispute the date 455 B.C provided but believe it is the wrong decree.
(2) Daniel 9:26 refers specifically to the crucifixion after the designated period. There is no mention of Jesus' Baptism at all in Daniel 9.
(3) The 69 weeks (483 years) you refer will also include another 1 week in Daniel 9:27. So it is just another way of referring to the 70 weeks (490 years), but breaking it down into 7 weeks (49 years) for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, then 62 weeks (434 years), and then the anointed one is cut off and the covenant is established in the final week (7 years). In this way the years that includes Christ's ministry are emphasised as well as the building of Jerusalem.
There is more I could say about the final week (seven years) from the prophecy but we need to agree on the above first.
Best wishes

Click to expand...

I think I agree about Jerusalem, and wonder why you stressed Jerusalem's wall/gate.
There would be 70 weeks of years to finish off sin. Starting from the going forth of the word to restore and rebuild ' Jerusalem ' until Messiah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks.........Daniel 9:24-25
Having ' Jerusalem ' rebuilt would mean worship would be restored, and Messiah would appear at a specific time.
Thus, that is why the first-century people were in ' expectation ' of Messiah at that time according to Luke 3:15

In the Tanakh footnote of Daniel 9:24 reads:
70 weeks of years are destined for your people and for your holy city. ( that city would be Jerusalem )
That is also similar to Moffatt and Rotherham.

The 70 weeks are divided into 3 periods:
1) 7 weeks
2) 62 weeks
3) 1 week
That would be 49 years, 434 years and 7 years = total 490 years.
So, following the exile from Babylon for 70 years, the Israelites would experience God's favor for 490 years, or 70 years multiplied by 7.

I think we agree the starting point would be from the going forth of the word to restore and rebuild: 'Jerusalem '
Beginning of the 70 weeks when Cyrus issued his decree in 537 BC restoring the Jews to their homeland.
- Ezra 1:2-4
Secondly, then is Ezra 7:6-27
Third, takes place 13 years later in the 20th year of Artaxerxes when Nehemiah was cupbearer at that time.
Nehemiah learned the wall of ' Jerusalem ' was broken down and its gates burned down.
That news disturbed Nehemiah which cased Artaxerxes to question Nehemiah about his sadness.
- Nehemiah 1:1-3; 2:1-3; 2:4-8
The actual effect to restore-and-rebuild ' Jerusalem ' would take place months later.
That would mean when Nehemiah actually arrived in ' Jerusalem ' and begins restoration of ' Jerusalem '
So, even though permission was given in the Jewish Spring month of Nisan, the actual going forth came later.
That could place Nehemiah's arrival in ' Jerusalem ' at 455 BC which would end in the year 36 when Jesus died.
( To me, secular Persian history establishes that 455 pivotal date - Nehemiah 2:1-5)

Messiah presents himself at age 30 for baptism counting 483 years (49 + 434) from 455 BC brings us to year 29.
- John 1:32-34; Luke 3:1-3,15 - so, at his baptism Jesus became Messiah, the Anointed One or Christ.
Thus, Messiah the Leader appeared exactly on time at the end of 69 weeks of years. - Mark 1:10-15
Jesus ministry began in the year 29 lasting for 3 1/2 years, or in other words, Jesus was later ' cut off ' in death in the Spring month of Nisan in the year 33.
Messiah appears (Daniel 9:25), then Messiah, at 3 score and 2 weeks, Messiah is cut off (Daniel 9:26 )

ben d said:

..........., and merely point out what I see as the actual reality rather than the deception of peace on Earth coming as a result of the efforts of man. The Kingdom of God is not of this World.

Click to expand...

I think we can agree the Kingdom of God is Not of this World. This World is corrupt -> 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13
If the Kingdom was of this World then there would be No need to still pray for God's Kingdom to come.
We do Not pray ' take me up ' to the kingdom, nor pray, take me ' away ' to God's Kingdom.
Rather, we pray God's will, His purpose, be done here on Earth 'as it is' in Heaven:
In Heaven there are No wars, No pollution, No violence, No sickness, No death, etc.
So, by praying ' thy kingdom come ' we are praying for those same good heavenly conditions to come to Earth.
Good earthly conditions as mentioned at Revelation 22:2 's blessings and benefits for earth's nations.

We are nearing the ' final phase ', so to speak, of Matthew 24:14 because of the international proclaiming about the good news about God's kingdom now being done on a vast world-wide scale.
We are also nearing the ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, " Peace and Security " as a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14
That is why that saying of Peace is Not actual Peace on Earth, but what is to take place before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will then usher in real global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

URAVIP2ME said:

I think we can agree the Kingdom of God is Not of this World. This World is corrupt -> 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13
If the Kingdom was of this World then there would be No need to still pray for God's Kingdom to come.
We do Not pray ' take me up ' to the kingdom, nor pray, take me ' away ' to God's Kingdom.
Rather, we pray God's will, His purpose, be done here on Earth 'as it is' in Heaven:
In Heaven there are No wars, No pollution, No violence, No sickness, No death, etc.
So, by praying ' thy kingdom come ' we are praying for those same good heavenly conditions to come to Earth.
Good earthly conditions as mentioned at Revelation 22:2 's blessings and benefits for earth's nations.

We are nearing the ' final phase ', so to speak, of Matthew 24:14 because of the international proclaiming about the good news about God's kingdom now being done on a vast world-wide scale.
We are also nearing the ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, " Peace and Security " as a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14
That is why that saying of Peace is Not actual Peace on Earth, but what is to take place before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will then usher in real global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

Click to expand...

Yes, the UN that cannot create peace on Earth...

ben d said:

There is Heaven and there is Earth, there is Spirit and there is Matter, and there is Life and there is Death, what is not true is the meme of Heaven on Earth, or any other meme conflating complementary opposites. The world's major powers of US, Europe, Russia, China, etc., all aspire to be the dominant player of UN New World Order, and thus war is unavoidable in the foreseeable future. Armageddon is coming and this is where God's plan of intervention will manifest as the prophetic judgement, and those that worshiped the 'Beast' that deceived the peoples of the Earth by promising peace will be punished, along with those who were not 'awake' to the underlying presence of the unspeakable glory of God.

I accept your present understanding of scripture concerning this subject, and merely point out what I see as the actual reality rather than the deception of peace on Earth coming as a result of the efforts of man. The Kingdom of God is not of this World.

Click to expand...

I see part of the misunderstanding we have here.

Clearly the United Nations in not God's Kingdom on earth. It is not based on God's word so of course can not possibly be. There are many problems as the major countries vie for power and are sometimes obstructive.

However I do not believe it is "The beast" or "Satan's work". It is a necessary development of governance for modern times. There will be many steps to refine it. Eventually when people recognise the returned Christ they will accept the New Covenant He brings and will recognise His laws as being just. Then we will have a government on the Holy Mountain that nations will turn to as prophesised by Isaiah. This will be God's kingdom on earth.

However it will be religious leaders who will oppose it, as they opposed Christ. These will be the antichrists.

adrianhindes said:

I enjoyed reading your thoughtful post and it raises some interesting issues:




Would it be reasonable to say that there is more than one abomination of desolation? For example there is the specific case of the idol in the temple 168 B.C mention in Daniel 11:31. However the term is likely to take on a much broader significance in Daniel 9:26 and desolation(s) are mentioned.



It seems likely that this is the desolation of abomination, or part thereof, as Jesus specifically refers to the destruction of the temple and the need for people to flee Judea. However Daniel 9:26 refers to the Messiah being cut off for the sake of the people. This most likely refers to the crucifixion of Jesus. Would it not be reasonable to see a profound connection between God's chosen people crucifying thier Messiah and the events that followed 66 - 70 AD? Daniel 9:27 suggests such a link.



This is very important to distinguish between events that have happened and those that were prophecised for the more distant future. I'm deliberately focusing on what we know to have happened. With better understanding how Daniel relates to events that have already happened, then we are better able to consider any other claims about fulfilment of prophecy including the abomination of desolation(s).

Thank you

Click to expand...

Christ was speaking of future events.
There were past abominations and desolation.
However, Christ would not have told people to flee from things which happened in the past.

If you happen to be in Judea -and see Jerusalem compassed by armies -you should flee.
The modern nation of Israel will be attacked by closer neighbors some years before the abomination of desolation -but "all nations" (which will be nations at that time) will be gathered against Jerusalem at the time of the abomination of desolation -including the forces of the beast and the kings of the east.

The following will happen in the future......

Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

adrianhindes said:

I see part of the misunderstanding we have here.

Clearly the United Nations in not God's Kingdom on earth. It is not based on God's word so of course can not possibly be. There are many problems as the major countries vie for power and are sometimes obstructive.

However I do not believe it is "The beast" or "Satan's work". It is a necessary development of governance for modern times. There will be many steps to refine it. Eventually when people recognise the returned Christ they will accept the New Covenant He brings and will recognise His laws as being just. Then we will have a government on the Holy Mountain that nations will turn to as prophesised by Isaiah. This will be God's kingdom on earth.

However it will be religious leaders who will oppose it, as they opposed Christ. These will be the antichrists.

Click to expand...

We are making progress, we agree that the present UN is not attempting to bring about God's Kingdom. And we agree that a planetary government approved by God is inevitable in due course. The point I make is that those who are presently trying to rule planet Earth, are separated by a Divine judgement event, from those that lead the Earth into an enduring future.