Did Jesus and or Mary ever believe in Trinity?

pcarl said:

I don't believe anyone stated anything about a gospel of Jesus, who wrote nothing. There is no canonical nor non canonical gospel attributed to Jesus. The NT represents collections of written and oral sources, much as the Pentateuch is a compilation of many traditions gathered and redacted to its present form.

Click to expand...

No one needs a canonical decision to determine that the Tanach was the gospel of Jesus, unless you do not believe that he was a Jewish man. The Tanach was and still is the gospel of every Jewish person. If Jesus was a Jew, his gospel was the Tanach.

Ben Avraham said:

No one needs a canonical decision to determine that the Tanach was the gospel of Jesus, unless you do not believe that he was a Jewish man. The Tanach was and still is the gospel of every Jewish person. If Jesus was a Jew, his gospel was the Tanach.

Click to expand...

"If Jesus was a Jew, his gospel was the Tanach."
The parts of it written by Moses.
Regards

paarsurrey said:

"If Jesus was a Jew, his gospel was the Tanach."
The parts of it written by Moses. Regards

Click to expand...

Did he distinguish between the parts written by Moses and the other parts? No, he didn't. He simply said that to achieve salvation, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. You are adding to what has been written against Deuteronomy 4:2 which says not to. Just to remind you of.

Ben Avraham said:

Did he distinguish between the parts written by Moses and the other parts? No, he didn't. He simply said that to achieve salvation, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. You are adding to what has been written against Deuteronomy 4:2 which says not to. Just to remind you of.

Click to expand...

He was sent as a prophet by Yahweh to reform Judaism and the Jewish Bible.
Regards

Ben Avraham said:

No one needs a canonical decision to determine that the Tanach was the gospel of Jesus, unless you do not believe that he was a Jewish man. The Tanach was and still is the gospel of every Jewish person. If Jesus was a Jew, his gospel was the Tanach.

Click to expand...

I don'' know why you call Jesus' preaching a 'gospel'. Gospel
is a unique genre not in the time of Jesus. What Jesus preached was the kingdom, rule, of God. He did not preach himself. In the sense that 'till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished", Jesus was faithful to the Torah. It is also that belief in the Torah that divided those Jews who followed Jesus and those who refused Him, for Jesus became the embodiment of the Torah, the significance of the account of the 'Transfiguration'.

pcarl said:

I don'' know why you call Jesus' preaching a 'gospel'. Gospel
is a unique genre not in the time of Jesus. What Jesus preached was the kingdom, rule, of God. He did not preach himself. In the sense that 'till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished", Jesus was faithful to the Torah. It is also that belief in the Torah that divided those Jews who followed Jesus and those who refused Him, for Jesus became the embodiment of the Torah, the significance of the account of the 'Transfiguration'.

Click to expand...

If Jesus became the embodiment of the Torah, Paul's decision to claim that he resurrected was an act of Replacement Theology. (II Timothy 2:8) If Jesus was the embodiment of the Torah the report of the guy who wrote the gospel attributed to Matthew was an act of Replacement Theology. (Mat. 1:18) The Torah would not endorse the Greek myth of the demigod aka the son of a god with an earthly woman. There are many other "if's" if I am asked to mention some more.

paarsurrey said:

He was sent as a prophet by Yahweh to reform Judaism and the Jewish Bible. Regards

Click to expand...

If that was true, why would Jesus teach us to listen to "Moses" aka the Law? (Luke 16:29-31) If you can't answer that, perhaps you could share with us evidences that Jesus reformed Judaism and the Tanach?

paarsurrey said:

He was sent as a prophet by Yahweh to reform Judaism and the Jewish Bible.
Regards

Click to expand...

The wording you chose is confuses the issue. Probably better to say that Jesus, as a prophet, holy man, sage, understood his mission, to the Jews only, was a renewal, keeping within the tradition of Judaism.

Ben Avraham said:

Paul's decision to claim that he resurrected was an act of Replacement Theology.

Click to expand...

Paul's gospel that he refers to is, God raised Jesus.

pcarl said:

Paul's gospel that he refers to is, God raised Jesus.

Click to expand...

Yes, God did raise Jesus. Do you happen to know what means did God employ to raise Jesus? Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus. If you read the end of the gospel of Mark, and John 19:39 for Nicodemus who had brought about 100 pounds of medications to mend Jesus' wounds. So, when Joseph went to Pilate for the permission to remove Jesus for burial, Pilate was surprised and suspicious that Jesus had died so soon. So, he called on the Centurion to go with Joseph and verify if it was true. But from the Pretoria of Pilate to the Calvary was quite a distance and they, Joseph and the Centurion had enough time to talk. As you must know, Joseph was a rich man in Israel and, the Centurion was only a graduated soldier on a salary of salt. Joseph needed the body of Jesus and the Centurion probably needed all the money Joseph could bribe him with. Bottom line is that Joseph got Jesus, the Centurion got the money he needed and Pilate got the word of the Centurion that Jesus had already died. Pilate
had enough reason to suspect that Jesus was already dead because he knew that it was not uncommon for crucified to remain on their crosses sometimes up to 4 days and, Jesus spent only about 3 hours.

Ben Avraham said:

Yes, God did raise Jesus. Do you happen to know what means did God employ to raise Jesus? Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus. If you read the end of the gospel of Mark, and John 19:39 for Nicodemus who had brought about 100 pounds of medications to mend Jesus' wounds. So, when Joseph went to Pilate for the permission to remove Jesus for burial, Pilate was surprised and suspicious that Jesus had died so soon. So, he called on the Centurion to go with Joseph and verify if it was true. But from the Pretoria of Pilate to the Calvary was quite a distance and they, Joseph and the Centurion had enough time to talk. As you must know, Joseph was a rich man in Israel and, the Centurion was only a graduated soldier on a salary of salt. Joseph needed the body of Jesus and the Centurion probably needed all the money Joseph could bribe him with. Bottom line is that Joseph got Jesus, the Centurion got the money he needed and Pilate got the word of the Centurion that Jesus had already died. Pilate
had enough reason to suspect that Jesus was already dead because he knew that it was not uncommon for crucified to remain on their crosses sometimes up to 4 days and, Jesus spent only about 3 hours.

Click to expand...

"Pilate had enough reason to suspect that Jesus was already dead because he knew that it was not uncommon for crucified to remain on their crosses sometimes up to 4 days and, Jesus spent only about 3 hours."
Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus planned to revive Jesus with the 100 pounds of medications, to mend Jesus' wounds.
I agree with one. Please
Regards

pcarl said:

Paul's gospel that he refers to is, God raised Jesus.

Click to expand...

And Jesus' gospel which was the Tanach says that HaShem was not like a man to change His mind. If He had inspired His prophets to teach that, once dead, no one can ever return from the grave, He would stay with His first decision. Read: II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

pcarl said:

I don'' know why you call Jesus' preaching a 'gospel'. Gospel
is a unique genre not in the time of Jesus. What Jesus preached was the kingdom, rule, of God. He did not preach himself. In the sense that 'till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished", Jesus was faithful to the Torah. It is also that belief in the Torah that divided those Jews who followed Jesus and those who refused Him, for Jesus became the embodiment of the Torah, the significance of the account of the 'Transfiguration'.

Click to expand...

The transfiguration was a dream in the three slumbering disciples of Jesus that night in Mount Tabor. Peter, John and James were so tired that they fell asleep and dreamed with Jesus standing between Moses and Elijah.

Ben Avraham said:

And Jesus' gospel which was the Tanach says that HaShem was not like a man to change His mind. If He had inspired His prophets to teach that, once dead, no one can ever return from the grave, He would stay with His first decision. Read: II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

Click to expand...

I agree with one.
One who dies, never returns to this world again.
Regards

paarsurrey said:

I agree with one.
One who dies, never returns to this world again.
Regards

Click to expand...

Are you sure! Lazarus died and returned to this world again if we are to take that parable in literal terms.

Ben Avraham said:

Yes, God did raise Jesus. Do you happen to know what means did God employ to raise Jesus?

Click to expand...

No, and neither do you!

Ben Avraham said:

So, when Joseph went to Pilate for the permission to remove Jesus for burial, Pilate was surprised and suspicious that Jesus had died so soon.

Click to expand...

The flogging that customarily preceded a crucifixion was reduced to the 39 lashes allowed due to the very fact that the victims did not survive long enough to be crucified. Jesus was so close to death it was not necessary to follow the custom of breaking the legs. I think you might be confusing resurrection with resuscitation. The appearances were only to those who believed, in one scene not recognized until breaking bread.

Ben Avraham said:

And Jesus' gospel which was the Tanach

Click to expand...

Jesus did not preach the Torah, he interpreted it, 'the kingdom is upon you', he inaugurated it, the 'now but not yet' of the Kingdom. Just as the Apostles interpreted His life with post Easter faith.

Ben Avraham said:

The transfiguration was a dream in the three slumbering disciples of Jesus that night in Mount Tabor. Peter, John and James were so tired that they fell asleep and dreamed with Jesus standing between Moses and Elijah.

Click to expand...

After all that wine you'd be tired to. But that's not the point. The reason for narritive by the evangelists has to do with the 'Torah of the Messiah', He is the embodiment of the Torah, the Law and the Prophets. We need not confuse the message with the vehicle (narrative) through which it is conveyed.

pcarl said:

No, and neither do you!

Click to expand...

HaShem made use of Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus.

The flogging that customarily preceded a crucifixion was reduced to the 39 lashes allowed due to the very fact that the victims did not survive long enough to be crucified. Jesus was so close to death it was not necessary to follow the custom of breaking the legs. I think you might be confusing resurrection with resuscitation. The appearances were only to those who believed, in one scene not recognized until breaking bread.

Click to expand...

No Pcarl, the purpose of the flogging was to break the natural reaction to the act of crucifixion itself. And Jesus was not alone as thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans only in the First Century if you read "Wars of the Jews" by Flavius Josephus and the method was the same. BTW, he said that crucified Jews would sometimes linger on their crosses even up to 4 days till death eventually caught up with them. Resurrection would contradict the words of the Prophets of the Most High. Resuscitation would rather promote them.

Jesus did not preach the Torah, he interpreted it, 'the kingdom is upon you', he inaugurated it, the 'now but not yet' of the Kingdom. Just as the Apostles interpreted His life with post Easter faith.

Click to expand...

Jesus preached the Torah. The soul of the Torah is the Law which Jesus taught us to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) It was the Torah, Jesus was entirely loyal to, till heavens and earth passed away. (Mat. 5:17-19)

After all that wine you'd be tired to. But that's not the point. The reason for narritive by the evangelists has to do with the 'Torah of the Messiah', He is the embodiment of the Torah, the Law and the Prophets. We need not confuse the message with the vehicle (narrative) through which it is conveyed.

Click to expand...

The Torah of the Messiah is the Torah of Israel aka the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Then, if you feel like reading, Habakkuk 3:13 states that, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One" aka Israel. The embodiment of the Torah is Israel whom was written to.[/quote]

Ben Avraham said:

HaShem made use of Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus.

Click to expand...

Very right.
Regards

paarsurrey said:

I agree with one.
One who dies, never returns to this world again.
Regards

Click to expand...

Although I suspect that you are not being serious, you did hit the bull's eye without aiming which is good too!

Jesus and Mary are only metaphors to me, so I don't personally don't care what they thought or believed.