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If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

Tumah

Veteran Member
I believe Isaiah 9:6-7 neither refers to Hezekiah, nor Jesus but is messianic.
Let's see how that bears up.

I agree with everything you have said about Hezekiah and that he was a Godly and great man mentioned in several books of the Tanakh. He Is clearly described in Isaiah 36-39. However the verses in Isaiah 9 refer to:

"Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever."

"Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end!" How can that have been Hezekiah's very temporal government?
"And from that time forward, even forever"?
Why do you start in the middle of a chapter? If you take it out of its context, you can make anything say whatever you want.

The previous chapter ended with the complete destruction of the Northern Kingdom and its exile as it was invaded by Assyria. There were two stages to the invasion. The first was when Assyria conquered Reuben, Gad, half of Manasseh and within Israel, Naftali and Zebulun. The second was when the rest of the Northern Kingdom was conquered.
Assyrian captivity - Wikipedia

"Because there is no tiredness to that who oppresses her. The first time he was lenient [capturing only], the land of Zebulun and the land of Naftali. And the last [time] he [dealt] heavily, the way of the sea, [and] over the Jordan, the areas of the nations."

That is what is described here. The first conquest including Naftali and Zebulun and then the remainder of the kingdom. Both times after they invaded the land, they exiled the people (see 2 Kings 15:29, 17:6)

"The nations going in darkness, saw a great light. [Those] sitting in the land of the shadow of death, light shone on them."
Notice how this verse is broken into two parts? There are currently two main situations going on with the entirety of Israel. Half of them are awaiting the Assyrian conquest of their land (the Kingdom of Judah). The other half are currently exiled (the Kingdom of Israel). That's what this verse is describing. The Kingdom of Judah who were expecting the Assyrians to conquer their land next following the invasion of the Northern Kingdom "see a great light" in their land, with the end of the Assyrian conquest. And the Northern Kingdom who was exiled to "the land of the shadow of death" also had light shine on them all the way there.

"You multiplied the nation, You increased the happiness. They were happy before You like the happiness of the harvest when they divided the spoils".

2 Kings 19:35 recounts the angel killing Sennacherib's invading army leaving a pile of corpses. Here Isaiah recounts the joy of Israel at the end of invasion and the splitting of their booty. He compares it to the happiness of reaping a harvest.
"Because the yoke of his suffering and the staff of his shoulder [the] rod of the [one who] oppressed him, You broke like the day of Midian"
The burden on them that was Assyria, G-d removed with the death of the invading army. See Judges 7 where Gideon takes 300 men and delivers Israel from the oppression of the Midianites (with G-d's help) in one night - just as Sennacherib's army is wiped out in one night.

"Because every shout [of war], shouts with noise. [And every] garment rolled in blood. And it will be for a burning, devoured by fire."

Here the prophet described the difference between Hezekiah's victory against the Assyrians to normal war. In a regular war, there's noise and blood all over the place. But when the angel fought on Hezekiah's behalf, it was like a consuming flame: no noise and no blood. Also compare with Lev. 10:2 where G-d kills by fire.

"Because a child (male) is born to us, a son given to us. And the ruler-ship will be on his shoulders. And the Wondrous Adviser, Mighty G-d, Eternal Father, will call his name "Prince of Peace".

Here the prophet speaks about Hezekiah's rule. The phrase "ruler-ship will be on his shoulders" is not repeated in the whole Tanach. Its usage here is meant to contrast with the previous mention of "the staff of his shoulder" representing Assyrian conquest. During Hezekiah's time, the Assyrian conquest will fail and his own ruler-ship will prevail over the people.

Here G-d is called the "Wondrous Adviser" in comparison with Isaiah 8:10 where the prophet says "take advice from your adviser and it will be voided, speak a word and it will not stand, because G-d is with us."

G-d is called, "Mighty G-d", obviously for the ease at which Sennacherib's army was destroyed.

G-d is called the "Eternal Father", because time is in His hands, as He showed when He added 15 years to Hezekiah's life in 2 Kings 20:6.

And He gave Hezekiah a peaceful reign. The word "prince" used here, doesn't denote a son of the king, but rather someone in charge of something. As its used in Gen.40:2, 4 "prince of drinks" and "prince of bakers" "prince of slaughterers". There as well it means the guy in charge of the drinks, baked goods and people who are on their way to the next life. Here too, Hezekiah is made in charge of keeping the peaceful reign G-d has entrusted to him.

"To [the one who] increases the ruler-ship and for peace without end. On David's throne and on his kingdom. To prepare it and to support it with judgement and righteousness. From now until forever. The jealousy of the G-d of Hosts will do this."
Here again, the two factors identified with Hezekiah are repeated "the ruler-ship will be on his shoulder" he is "[the one who] increases ruler-ship" and G-d calls him the "prince of peace" and he will have "peace without end". Here peace without end doesn't mean that his peace will continue eternally, but that there will not be any boundary to his peace. His country will have peace at all its borders.
Hezekiah, a descendant of David sat on David's throne and ruled the kingdom. He ruled it righteously.

Although it says, "from now until forever" we know Hezekiah didn't live forever. Therefore we use the alternate interpretation of this word meaning "for the duration of his life". This interpretation can also be found in 1 Sam. 1:22 when Hannah tells Elkannah that Samuel would dwell there "forever". Not forever and ever, but rather his forever as long as he would remain alive.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Its always cute when Christians quote Christian books towards non-Christians.

But its okay my little Greco-Roman. :)
I believe God speaks and you refuse to listen just as many Christians refuse to listen when God speaks in the Qu'ran simply because you believe it comes from another religion. That means you don't really know God but simply worship a book and a book can't save you.

I appreciate belonging to you but I believe I am decidedly a yankee american.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Unfortunately, I'm suffering from a bout of sanity, so that will be impossible.

It is my understanding that sanity helps one's understanding instead of diminishing it so I believe I have the right to question your sanity.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
It is my understanding that sanity helps one's understanding instead of diminishing it so I believe I have the right to question your sanity.
You have the right to question everything including my sanity. However, I recommend starting your line of questioning with the basis for your own beliefs. Presently they seem to be a product of your fantasies.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
If Jesus is the prophesied Messiah how is it no one seems to know unless they are told?
First let me say that your quote from Martin Luther is one of the most efficient examples of a word smith practicing his craft. A thousand arguments were dealt with in those simplistic statements. BTW his statements were also made in the context of Christ's identity of being the Messiah.

Anyway,

Lets first make sure we understand what it is that Christians believe when they say Christ is the messiah.

Christianity's core and exclusive claim about Christ is one of experience not intellectual consent. Christianity alone (among all mainstream faiths) both demands and offers a spiritual experience that confirms it's intellectual proposition that Christ is the Messiah. This requires some explanation. If you look at what is required to become a believer in Judaism or Islam for example is merely that you grant intellectual consent to a proposition. If you get it wrong you will not know it until it is too late to change your mind because mere consent does not come with confirmation. Christianity offers the same proposition the others do but it comes with something they do not. It guarantees that upon sincere faith in Christ every believer will receive spiritual confirmation that validates their belief.

Some Bible scholars suggest there are more than 300 prophetic Scriptures completed in the life of Jesus.

After the resurrection, preachers of the New Testament church began to declare officially that Jesus Christ was the Messiah by divine appointment:

"Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:36, ESV)

Prophecies of Jesus Fulfilled
Although this list is not exhaustive, you'll find 44 messianic predictions clearly fulfilled in Jesus Christ, along with supporting references from the Old and New Testament.

Prophecies Jesus Christ Fulfilled
1 Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
Galatians 4:4
2 Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
Luke 2:4-6
3 Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23
Luke 1:26-31
4 Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis 12:3
Genesis 22:18 Matthew 1:1
Romans 9:5
5 Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19
Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:34
6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
7 Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:33
Hebrews 7:14
8 Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13
Isaiah 9:7 Luke 1:32-33
Romans 1:3
9 Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7
Daniel 2:44 Luke 1:33
Hebrews 1:8-12
10 Messiah would be called Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
11 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
12 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
14 Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8
Isaiah 53:3 John 1:11
John 7:5
15 Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
16 Messiah would be preceded by Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 Matthew 11:13-14
17 Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:16-17
18 Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:23
19 Messiah would bring light to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:13-16
20 Messiah would speak in parables. Psalm 78:2-4
Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
44 Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ
Top 40 Most Helpful Messianic Prophecies - Jews for Jesus

Now as to why must we be told who the Messiah is. Because unless we are told we would have no knowledge of him. All revelation is transmitted by word of mouth (or Holy texts). If we have (and we certainly do) have hundreds of prophecies for the Messiah that Jesus alone fulfilled, we have explicit claims that Jesus was the Messiah by all those who were in the best position to know, there exists no rational motivation for the disciples claims other than actually belief, and we have a unique God given experience which validates all the other evidence then exactly what are we lacking? Claims rarely get that level of certainty.
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe if you mean do I associate myself as a Baha'i in my own mind then the answer is no.
I was just wondering. Because the Qur'an is at odds with what you believe as a Christian, yet you consider it the word of God. How do you reconcile those beliefs?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I was just wondering. Because the Qur'an is at odds with what you believe as a Christian, yet you consider it the word of God. How do you reconcile those beliefs?

Actually I do not believe that. I do believe the way things are interpreted by Muslims is contrary but then I can get the same result with the way some people interpret the Bible.

The "B" man gave credence to the Qu'ran and Bible but at times his views can be at variance with what God said in those books.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
What is it you do associate your self with, in your mind? Is it Christ and the Gospels or not?
I most closely associate myself with the Baptist view that a person having the Holy Spirit as guide will understand the message of Jesus and pretty much everything else as well.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually I do not believe that. I do believe the way things are interpreted by Muslims is contrary but then I can get the same result with the way some people interpret the Bible.

The "B" man gave credence to the Qu'ran and Bible but at times his views can be at variance with what God said in those books.
The Qur'an is pretty clear in its denial of Jesus' deity, death and resurrection - three of the core Christian teachings. This isn't a matter of interpretation. Are you trying to tell me nearly every single Muslim on the planet, for 1400 years, has managed to interpret the Qur'an wrong?
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
This is very simple to understand:

"They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.”
Quran 4:156

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." Qur'an 4:171

He wasn't crucified, he wasn't raised, he wasn't God and he's not God's son.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The Qur'an is pretty clear in its denial of Jesus' deity, death and resurrection - three of the core Christian teachings. This isn't a matter of interpretation. Are you trying to tell me nearly every single Muslim on the planet, for 1400 years, has managed to interpret the Qur'an wrong?

I believe I disagree. Certainly it appears that way to someone reading it without guidance but then it appeared that Jesus died on the cross to His disciples when in truth the Biblical record does indicate that only the body of Jesus died on the cross.

Of course I believe it is and that is the difference between someone who studies a subject and someone just reading.

I believe It is possible. It took ages for the Arian heresy to die so it is possible for false beliefs to have longevity. I have rarely met a Muslim willing to think about it much and usually they just parrot the teaching they have heard over and over or go by a rudimentary read while ignoring the Bible's account.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe I disagree. Certainly it appears that way to someone reading it without guidance but then it appeared that Jesus died on the cross to His disciples when in truth the Biblical record does indicate that only the body of Jesus died on the cross.

Of course I believe it is and that is the difference between someone who studies a subject and someone just reading.

I believe It is possible. It took ages for the Arian heresy to die so it is possible for false beliefs to have longevity. I have rarely met a Muslim willing to think about it much and usually they just parrot the teaching they have heard over and over or go by a rudimentary read while ignoring the Bible's account.
So, you know the Qur'an better than the Islamic scholars who've been reading it for 1,400 years?

Alright. Have fun.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
This is very simple to understand:

"They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.”
Quran 4:156

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." Qur'an 4:171

He wasn't crucified, he wasn't raised, he wasn't God and he's not God's son.

I believe your conclusions do not follow from the premises.

The text does not say that, It says "Jesus Allah" and as I understand it the "is" is understood so that in English it would read Jesus is Allah. The merely or but is not in the text at all and is a case of adding one's own idea's to God's word.
 
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