Did Jesus and or Mary ever believe in Trinity?

I think that in Judaism, lineage and who someone is the "son of" was extremely important as seen in Jewish and Christian Scriptures. Jewish identity itself was/is very much bound to being a descendant of Abraham (although all are welcome to the Jewish faith of course).

Notice in the Christian Scriptures, the people ask about how Jesus is simply the son of a carpenter etc. and therefore what authority does He have etc.?

So, there was (is?) this very important concept of "who someone is the son of". "Who someone is the son of" gives credence and tells people you are worth listening to. Notice also in the Christian Scriptures, God says that Jesus is His Son and that people should listen to Him.

In the Roman Empire, the gods were Saturn, Jupiter, Zeus, Mars, Juno, Minerva... Jupiter was the main god. Jupiter translates to "sky father", i.e. father in/of the sky. Note in Judaism and Christianity, that God is called Father in Heaven. The temple on Capitoline Hill in Rome, was dedicated to the triad of the three gods Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva.

So, there was this very important concept of "who someone is the son of" in Judaism and a huge population of pagans who believed in Jupiter and the Capitoline Triad. At the same time, there was an effort to bring Christianity to both groups.

I also propose that in Christian Scriptures, there may be some subtle encodings that Jewish people would understand. E.g. hints that indicated that some of the terminology and/or teaching methodology was related to working with pagans and the Roman Empire. I've shown some of this in other posts e.g. John 4:22, and I think there may be others.

Ben Avraham said:

And where is this gospel of Jesus' teachings collected for future generations? Come on! The gospel of Jesus was the Tanach and he did not reserve for future generations but he taught to his own generation.

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I don't believe anyone stated anything about a gospel of Jesus, who wrote nothing. There is no canonical nor non canonical gospel attributed to Jesus. The NT represents collections of written and oral sources, much as the Pentateuch is a compilation of many traditions gathered and redacted to its present form.

Shad said:

I have shown it was there. However people like yourself that lack reading comprehension need it to literal say "trinity"



This just shows how ignorant you are of Christianity. Most of the divides are solely based on organization levels, nothing more



Yes so lets go ask a Baha'i that knows nothing about the subject instead....



Except it is not even a minor issue anymore and has not been for 18 centuries. So much for you expertise on the subject.

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All we are saying is we believe God is indivisible and that His Essence is one.

People that my wife and I love coming to our home are the Christians and not long ago we had a couple visit. We share much in common especially our love for Jesus.

Last week Olive Tree Bible had a lot of stuff on special and I was able to pick up some things that are now $500. Anchor Dictionary, Welwyn, IVP and so much other stuff. I was like a kid in a candy store.

We have our different understandings but I was wrong to be so harsh so I apologise. Love and brotherhood between us is more important to me than who is right and who is wrong.

Here's a beautiful tribute to Jesus, written by Baha'u'llah. I hope you like it...

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him. (Baha'u'llah)

paarsurrey said:

Why make a guess about Jesus? Isn't Jesus a Christian-god? Please don't make him a helpless person and don't make any speculation for what he had to do during his lifetime by fixing his duties.Right? Please
Regards

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There is no 'Christian' God, there is One God!
What you call a 'guess', scholars and historians would call a hypothesis, with high probability. It is impossible to makes history present. All science begins with speculation, much remaining a theory of high probability unless and until it can be observed.
The rest of your post makes no sense to me whatsoever. Does it to you?

The concept of the Trinity was not ratified until Nicea in the fourth century. Even then it was by a majority decision with many dissenters. From the late 1st century people had talked about the father, his son and the holy spirit. But it was much later when some came to regard Jesus as divine, that it became possible to arrive at the concept of a Trinity.
In the Didarche. It was instructed to baptise in tthe name of the father, and of the Son, and of the holy spirit. But at that time "in the name of" meant " with the authority of" as of "in the name of the law" it certainly did not imply they were one God.

Reggie Miller said:

So what's your point. That's what I said.

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That it is Jesus that will baptize with the Holy Spirit. Although the is no mention of Jesus baptizing.

pcarl said:

That it is Jesus that will baptize with the Holy Spirit. Although the is no mention of Jesus baptizing.

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Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This took place after Jesus had ascended into heaven.

paarsurrey said:

Did Jesus and or Mary ever believed in Trinity?

Jesus and Mary could never believe in Trinity. It is a pagan concept. Right? Please
Regards

____________
The thread was conceptualized from post:
#107 adrianhindes, thanks andregards to him.
#109 paarsurrey, one may like to read both the post, please

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the trinity is apparent in the first line of the book of genesis. God, heaven, earth.

Jesus taught pray to the Father.
Jesus taught true worshipers worship the Father and the Father seeks those.
Jesus Himself prayed to the Father.
trins say Jesus is the example yet do not follow His example nor teachings.

Reggie Miller said:

What? Why then did Jesus command that we be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? They are one.

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why do the Apostles baptize in the name of the Son? they walked with Him, were taught by Him, they knew Him best, obeyed His commands, yet they would disobey this command.

jaybird said:

why do the Apostles baptize in the name of the Son? they walked with Him, were taught by Him, they knew Him best, obeyed His commands, yet they would disobey this command.

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I feel sure they baptized just as Jesus taught them to.

Reggie Miller said:

I feel sure they baptized just as Jesus taught them to.

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there are several examples of baptism by the Apostles and they all baptize in the name of the Son or name of Jesus. never in the trinity formula.

btw love those knick pacer rivalrys of the 90s, reggie was the best.

jaybird said:

there are several examples of baptism by the Apostles and they all baptize in the name of the Son or name of Jesus. never in the trinity formula.

btw love those knick pacer rivalrys of the 90s, reggie was the best.

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Most of the examples do not specify exactly. But even being baptized in Jesus' name only implies the Father and Holy Spirit as well. Jesus said He and the Father are one and Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit without measure.

Reggie was great, fun to watch in his day.

pcarl said:

Josephus ("B. J." ii. 8, § 14; "Ant." xiii. 5, § 9; xviii. 1, § 3) carefully avoids mentioning the most essential doctrine of the Pharisees, the Messianic hope, which the Sadducees did not share with them; while for the Essenes time and conditions were predicted in their apocalyptic writings. Instead, Josephus merely says that "they ascribe everything to fate without depriving man of his freedom of action." This idea is expressed by Akiba: "Everything is foreseen [that is, predestined]; but at the same time freedom is given" (Abot iii. 15). Akiba, however, declares, "The world is judged by grace [not by blind fate nor by the Pauline law], and everything is determined by man's actions [not by blind acceptance of certain creeds]." Similar to Josephus' remark is the rabbinical saying, "All is decreed by God except fear of God" (Ber. 33b). "Man may act either virtuously or viciously, and his rewards or punishmentsin the future shall be accordingly" ("Ant." xviii. 1, § 3). This corresponds with the "two ways of the Jewish teaching" (Ab. R. N. xxv.; see Didache). But it was not the immortality of the soul which the Pharisees believed in, as Josephus puts it, but the resurrection of the body as expressed in the liturgy (see Resurrection), and this formed part of their Messianic hope (see Eschatology).

In contradistinction to the Sadducees, who were satisfied with the political life committed to their own power as the ruling dynasty, the Pharisees represented the views and hopes of the people.
PHARISEES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

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All Jews, somehow, look at the establishment of a Messianic Kingdom which is the same as a New World Order. Even "atheists" among the Jews. Nothing is predestined. We have the power through our attribute of Freewill, to determine our own fate. Predestination was a Greek doctrine to imply that our lives were in the hands of the gods. The world is judged according to the Law which was given as a result of HaShem's grace to determine how we are conducting our own lives. Fate is too misleading and unfair to challenge. It is absolutely non-sensical to oppose fate because if something happens this way, the fateful believer jumps in to claim the price of fate. If the opposite happens, the same fateful believer jumps in to claim the price of fate. So, I rather keep my position that we are the authors of our own fate.

Terrywoodenpic said:

The concept of the Trinity was not ratified until Nicea in the fourth century. Even then it was by a majority decision with many dissenters. From the late 1st century people had talked about the father, his son and the holy spirit. But it was much later when some came to regard Jesus as divine, that it became possible to arrive at the concept of a Trinity.
In the Didarche. It was instructed to baptise in tthe name of the father, and of the Son, and of the holy spirit. But at that time "in the name of" meant " with the authority of" as of "in the name of the law" it certainly did not imply they were one God.

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I agree with one. Please
Regards

Terrywoodenpic said:

The concept of the Trinity was not ratified until Nicea in the fourth century.

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The concept was there, (a dialogue within God) but it was not formulated. The Council was called for the benefit of the Roman emperor, who, neither a theologian nor a Christian, wanted the matter settled, the strength of a unified Christianity.

'Person', persona, did not mean for the ancients what is does today. It was a mask worn by actors in theater by Roman and Greek actors, indicating various parts they were playing within a specific play. Some took that to mean simply different modes of being.

What will always be evident is the inadequacy of human language to explain God.

Ben Avraham said:

All Jews, somehow, look at the establishment of a Messianic Kingdom which is the same as a New World Order. Even "atheists" among the Jews. Nothing is predestined. We have the power through our attribute of Freewill, to determine our own fate. Predestination was a Greek doctrine to imply that our lives were in the hands of the gods. The world is judged according to the Law which was given as a result of HaShem's grace to determine how we are conducting our own lives. Fate is too misleading and unfair to challenge. It is absolutely non-sensical to oppose fate because if something happens this way, the fateful believer jumps in to claim the price of fate. If the opposite happens, the same fateful believer jumps in to claim the price of fate. So, I rather keep my position that we are the authors of our own fate.

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Behind the idea of predestination was the assumption that because God knew the outcome one was helpless to alter the final one's final destination. I don't think any religion seriously teaches that any longer.

There is clearly only one God mentioned in the New Testament and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are but His Intermediaries. The sun is not its rays but is independent of them and can exist without them but the rays and light cannot exist without the sun.

Have a look at these passages in the Bible. One of them even uses the word intermediary so the misconception of the trinity is mistaking the light and rays of the sun for sun itself which we know is not correct. The sun can exist without the rays but the rays are dependent on the sun.

One God

Mark 12:29
29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Romans 3:30
30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Galatians 3:20
20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

loverofhumanity said:

There is clearly only one God mentioned in the New Testament and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are but His Intermediaries. The sun is not its rays but is independent of them and can exist without them but the rays and light cannot exist without the sun.

Have a look at these passages in the Bible. One of them even uses the word intermediary so the misconception of the trinity is mistaking the light and rays of the sun for sun itself which we know is not correct. The sun can exist without the rays but the rays are dependent on the sun.

One God

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Romans 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Galatians 3:20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

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Intermediaries aka medium is a term akin to Emmanuel which Prophet Isaiah identified it as being Judah aka the Jewish People if you read Isaiah 8:8. Not only Jesus on an individual basis but all the People he belonged to for 33 years of his so short a life are the intermediaries between HaShem and men. (Job 42:7-10)

pcarl said:

Behind the idea of predestination was the assumption that because God knew the outcome one was helpless to alter the final one's final destination. I don't think any religion seriously teaches that any longer.

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I hope not! HaShem does know the outcome but it does not affect man's Freewill. In a vision of Cain while he was digesting what to do with his brother Abel, he was much distressed and his face fell. And the Lord said to him, "Why are you distressed and why is your face fallen? Surely, if you do right, there is uplift. But if you do not do right, sin couches at the door; its urge is toward you; yet, you can be its master." It means that HaShem knew the outcome but He did not alter the final destination. HaShem respected Cain's attribute of Freewill. And mind you, Cain was no longer helpless as he decided to act according to his "Yetse harah" aka evil inclination.(Genesis 4:6-9)