The European left-wing has betrayed European nations

Estro Felino · Aug 20, 2016

metis said:
I'm not worried so much about liberal parties in Europe and here in the States as much as I'm much more worried about right-wing nationalistic parties. And, to me, what's happening in Syria is so monstrously tragic that I do believe all countries should do their utmost to help these people out, and that includes most countries here in the Americas.

Well..I remember that, when in WW2 the Americans saved us from the Nazis, we helped them defeat them. In other words...we let them help us. Evidently there are countries that don't let Americans help them.
That's the same reason why in all of Europe there is pro-American propaganda and in other parts of the world anti-American propaganda.

MD · Aug 21, 2016

Lol at all the Leftists ****ting on Nationalism while defending an ideology that killed 100 million and is solely responsible for weakening the Western world.

AnnaCzereda · Aug 21, 2016

Flankerl said:
"The Kraków pogrom of August 11, 1945, was the first anti-Jewish riot in postwar Poland, resulting in one death.[42][43]

"According to the report prepared for Joseph Stalin by the NKVD in Kraków..."

You must be kidding me. The report by the NKVD? Seriously? Do you have more reliable sources?

Anyway, I will tell you about one case of the persecution of Jews in Poland I'm sure really happened and was on much larger scale. It was in 1968, when the Communist Party leaders started the massive anti-Jewish campaign. It was shortly after the USSR broke the diplomatic contacts with Israel. People suspected of having Jewish roots were purged from the Communist Party, from the public administration, from the universities, from the army and the police. Thousands of Jews were forced to leave Poland.

Shortly after 1989, the Communist Party dissolved and after the short rule of Solidarity, the former members of the Communist Party came back to power as... the democratic Left. They set up one main Leftist party and several minor ones. They also prepared the access of Poland to the European Union. During their rule Poland joined both NATO and the EU.

Poland fell under the Soviet-Communist reign immediately after the war. Anything that happened to Jews was inspired by the Communists, NKVD included.

Nationalist movement was disbanded. Citing any anti-Jewish sentiment in Poland to prove how bad Nationalism is is a moot argument.

So to sum up:
Poland owes its presence in the European Union to anti-Jewish post-communist Left!!!

MD said:
Lol at all the Leftists ****ting on Nationalism while defending an ideology that killed 100 million and is solely responsible for weakening the Western world.

Indeed. If Stalin competed with Hitler as to the number of produced corpses, then I'm not so sure who would win. And let's not forget that the Communists were in power longer than the Nazis.

Saint Frankenstein · Aug 21, 2016

MD said:
Lol at all the Leftists ****ting on Nationalism while defending an ideology that killed 100 million and is solely responsible for weakening the Western world.

I'm an anarcho-communist, so I'm not one to defend Marxism. I'm opposed to Marxism and nationalism.

Flankerl · Aug 21, 2016

AnnaCzereda said:
"According to the report prepared for Joseph Stalin by the NKVD in Kraków..."

You must be kidding me. The report by the NKVD? Seriously? Do you have more reliable sources?

Or one could read the entire article.

And you can write whatever you want, the Kielce pogrom proves you wrong.

AnnaCzereda · Aug 21, 2016

Flankerl said:
And you can write whatever you want, the Kielce pogrom proves you wrong.

And I'm not sure what YOU are going to prove. The pogrom in Kielce was inspired and, probably, organized by the Communist authorities. I say "probably" because since the Communist government destroyed the major documents we know little about it.

What does that have to do with Polish Nationalism? There was an attempt to blame Nationalists for that event or even the anti-communist opposition. It's even written on Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom#Attempts_to_blame_Polish_nationalists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom#Attempts_to_blame_Polish_nationalists
Communists and Nationalists in Poland were two different things.

It doesn't mean that Nationalists are not anti-Semites but it was, Dear, the Communists that destroyed the considerable Jewish minority in Poland.

Now, their children are sitting in the European Parliament and are applauded by the EU bureaucrats as great democrats. However, they are fooling no one here.

Laika · Aug 22, 2016

AnnaCzereda said:
And I'm not sure what YOU are going to prove. The pogrom in Kielce was inspired and, probably, organized by the Communist authorities. I say "probably" because since the Communist government destroyed the major documents we know little about it.

What does that have to do with Polish Nationalism? There was an attempt to blame Nationalists for that event or even the anti-communist opposition. It's even written on Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom#Attempts_to_blame_Polish_nationalists
Communists and Nationalists in Poland were two different things.

It doesn't mean that Nationalists are not anti-Semites but it was, Dear, the Communists that destroyed the considerable Jewish minority in Poland.

Now, their children are sitting in the European Parliament and are applauded by the EU bureaucrats as great democrats. However, they are fooling no one here.

Thanks for posting the link as I wasn't aware of this. Publicly communists were fervently opposed to antisemitism as a form of racism but it is not beyond them to exploit it for political purposes as the Doctors Plot and attacks on "rootless cosmopolitanism" (particuarly Zionism) demonstrate a few years after the above incident.

Laika · Aug 22, 2016

Luca85 said:
To begin with, things have completely changed, so history cannot repeat itself. We have the UNO, we have an International Bill of Human Rights, we have International Courts.
Secondly, modern nationalism exclusively focus on protecting the interests of a sovereign state: its democratic and secular principles and its exclusivity on legislating on economic, juridic, fiscal matters.
I will never stop being faithful to my socialist principles: the problem is that only certain right-wing parties have acknowledged that the ECB has been created in order to exploit the European nations economically, through Seigniorage. UK, Sweden and Denmark were smart enough to understand this, and in fact they didn't enter the Eurozone.

My understanding (admittedly limited when it comes to the far right) is that all the above are true. The far right has undergone a considerable evolution since World War II making nazi comparisons inaccurate. History does not repeat itself exactly, but it is more than possible that ultra-nationalist movements may perpetrate new atrocities and deny human rights. Rights cannot be taken for granted as freedom is not a "natural" state.

In relation to your OP, the "left" has ultimately failed to address the issues that have fueled the rise in popularity in the far right, such as fears over immigration, Islam, as well as the difficulties in responding to globalisation and multiculturalism which profess equality but practice socio-economic and cultural segregation. The political correctness of the centre left has become a fatal weakness to its ability to respond to the fears (real or imagined) of often lower income groups that face deep economic uncertainty.

The far left barely registers as a political force but is often anti-EU and anti-NATO on the grounds of opposing capitalism and imperialism rather than necessarily being nationalist. We badly need left wing answers to these problems if we are to present a united front against a possible resurgence of fascism- whatever it's public face may be. I concede they are presently lacking.

Estro Felino · Aug 22, 2016

Laika said:
My understanding (admittedly limited when it comes to the far right) is that all the above are true. The far right has undergone a considerable evolution since World War II making nazi comparisons inaccurate. History does not repeat itself exactly, but it is more than possible that ultra-nationalist movements may perpetrate new atrocities and deny human rights. Rights cannot be taken for granted as freedom is not a "natural" state.

In relation to your OP, the "left" has ultimately failed to address the issues that have fueled the rise in popularity in the far right, such as fears over immigration, Islam, as well as the difficulties in responding to globalisation and multiculturalism which profess equality but practice socio-economic and cultural segregation. The political correctness of the centre left has become a fatal weakness to its ability to respond to the fears (real or imagined) of often lower income groups that face deep economic uncertainty.

The far left barely registers as a political force but is often anti-EU and anti-NATO on the grounds of opposing capitalism and imperialism rather than necessarily being nationalist. We badly need left wing answers to these problems if we are to present a united front against a possible resurgence of fascism- whatever it's public face may be. I concede they are presently lacking.

It is obvious that in each European state, the political and economic situation is unique, and so therefore, it is impossible to consider the EU as a whole. I am referring to the situation in my country and I took France as other example, because Italy and France are similar as for economic structure and legislation, even if one is wealthier than the other.

In Italy the left-wing (which is in charge right now) has showed to obey any order of the European Commission and to imitate all the German reforms (especially labor reforms).

In other words, the Italian Prime Minister is just a servant (or vassal) of Angela Merkel. She dictates, he obeys. In France, Hollande does the exact same thing. That's why Marine Le Pen, during a EU parliament session, told Angela Merkel (who was sitting next to François Hollande): “Merci, Chancelier Merkel d'etre venue avec le Vice-Chancelier Hollande, administrateur de la province France”. Here the video

Why do you think UK wisely voted for Brexit? Because the British people don't want to become like France and don't want Germany to influence their politics and their economy (and UK is not even in the Euro-zone).

The Euro system is a criminal plan: it was created to turn the ECB into the wealthiest bank in the world. It's a pure game of investments, which works only if the Euro is always worth more than dollar. To avoid devaluation, they have to prevent inflation , and this is obtained by keeping very little money in circulation. Low inflation (Philipps curve shows it) leads to high unemployment rate in the entire Euro-zone.
So therefore I feel as If I had been betrayed by the left-wing of my country. And it is normal that I consider Giorgia Meloni, (president of a traditionally far-right-wing party) an ally, as she protests against the EU policy and the Euro system.

Flankerl · Aug 22, 2016

Luca85 said:
Why do you think UK wisely voted for Brexit?

Largely because of evil foreigners and all the money for the NHS.

Luca85 said:
The Euro system is a criminal plan: it was created to turn the ECB into the wealthiest bank in the world.

Meanwhile in reality the unified currency was the price West Germany paid to get the "OK" from France for its reunification with East Germany.

Nyingjé Tso · Aug 22, 2016

Vanakkam,

Luca85 said:
W
Besides, in France the Front National is already considered the first French party, so it's very probable that Marine Le Pen will be the next French president. .

No, she won't. Praise the great holy kitten for that.
I wouldn't call that evolution in politics at all, the FN is a dangerous nest of rascists extremists and people with the most backward ideas ever. Many of their heads and representatives are tied to extremists groups, some are even opens NeoNazis. Marine can coat that in sugar all she wants, she has absolutely no valid plan and will not save anyone from whatever. They are just taking advantage because humans are stupid animals that falls each time into fear and easy finger poining, because it's easier to scapegoat than to think by yourself.

There is no change or evolution at all. It even seems awfully similar to the dreadful events of the last war. Except that it's more coated in sugar.
You must really like sweets.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Laika · Aug 22, 2016

Luca85 said:
It is obvious that in each European state, the political and economic situation is unique, and so therefore, it is impossible to consider the EU as a whole. I am referring to the situation of my country and I took France as other example, because Italy and France are similar as for economic structure and legislation, even if one is wealthier than the other.

In Italy the left-wing (which is at Government right now) has showed to obey any order of the European Commission and to imitate all the German reforms (especially labor reforms).

In other words, the Italian Prime Minister is just a servant (or vassal) of Angela Merkel. She dictates, he obeys. In France, Hollande does the exact same thing. That's why Marine Le Pen, during a EU parliament session, told Angela Merkel (who was sitting next to François Hollande): “Merci, Chancelier Merkel d'etre venue avec le Vice-Chancelier Hollande, administrateur de la province France”. Here the video

Why do you think UK wisely voted for Brexit? Because the British people don't want to become like France and don't want Germany to influence their politics and their economy (and UK is not even in the Euro-zone).

The Euro system is a criminal plan: it was created to turn the ECB into the wealthiest bank in the world. It's a pure game of investments, which works only if the Euro is always worth more than dollar. To avoid devaluation, they have to prevent inflation , and this is obtained by keeping very little money in circulation. Low inflation (Philipps curve shows it) leads to high unemployment rate in the entire Euro-zone.
So therefore I feel as If I had been betrayed by the left-wing of my country. And it is normal that I consider Giorgia Meloni, (president of a traditionally far-right-wing party) an ally, as she protests against the EU policy and the Euro system.

I voted "Remain" in the referendum as I didn't quite have the balls to call the bluff on the financial implications and felt I couldn't vote leave as the "left" would not be able to enact any of the changes they wanted. Another part of me nagged away that being in the EU was a lesser evil in order to deal with environmental problems on an international scale. But my mind changed several times over the course of the referendum.

As it was, the result was a mess and not having a PM or an accepted leader of the opposition was really disturbing as it felt like political free fall. Boris dropping out of the Tory leadership race, only to come back as foreign secretary was quite a shock (and pretty funny at the time).

I wouldn't go as far as to describe the EU as criminal but the idea of private courts as part of the TTIP got my attention for effectively putting multinational corporations above the rule of law. For the left, a major issue with the EU is that you have to limit the national debt to be within the EU, which means you are committed to Austerity even when it makes no financial sense. I believe you are right about the EU keeping unemployment up to reduce inflation as the commitment to austerity makes that even worse. Combined with the free movement of labour, that is a pretty toxic cocktail for radical politics in an economic crisis.

The way the EU treated Greece in order to keep them in the euro was utterly disgusting and showed that the EU is a threat to national democracy. That was what made me question it seriously for the first time as it was pure gangsterism to coerce SRYIZA into committing more austerity to remain in the EU at the expense of the Greek people. The Greek communists have been calling for them to withdraw from the EU and they are pretty much the only communist party in Europe that could get power if they continue to screw Greece over. Either that or Golden Dawn- which would be at least as frightening, perhaps worse. Based on polling for the next election, that is still quite a way off though with Golden dawn and the Greek communists polling with between 7-10% each.

Flankerl · Aug 22, 2016

Well the Greeks always had the option to just leave the Eurozone...

metis · Aug 22, 2016

MD said:
Lol at all the Leftists ****ting on Nationalism while defending an ideology that killed 100 million and is solely responsible for weakening the Western world.

Actually "communism" as the Soviets and Chinese instituted, was pretty much more right-wing as they acted as oligarchists, which more a right-wing political system than a left. Instead of adopting policies that favored the masses, they implemented policies that favored themselves. Socialism and true communism involves sharing, not totalitarianism.

AnnaCzereda · Aug 22, 2016

Laika said:
Thanks for posting the link as I wasn't aware of this. Publicly communists were fervently opposed to antisemitism as a form of racism but it is not beyond them to exploit it for political purposes as the Doctors Plot and attacks on "rootless cosmopolitanism" (particuarly Zionism) demonstrate a few years after the above incident.

They were by no means ideological anti-Semites. The attitude of the Soviet Union to the Jews changed during the war between Israel and the neighboring Arab countries in 1967. Despite the initial support, the Soviets started regarding Israel as a threat. Many communist party members were of the Jewish origin and they were also regarded as a threat. The Communist Party in the USSR or in other countries was by no means a monolith. In Poland, there were two fractions; one more progressive, the other more orthodox, so animosity between party members also played a role. Moreover, a considerable part of the Jewish students took part in the anti-communist riots.

Laika said:
The far right has undergone a considerable evolution since World War II making nazi comparisons inaccurate. History does not repeat itself exactly, but it is more than possible that ultra-nationalist movements may perpetrate new atrocities and deny human rights.

It really varies from country to country. In some places the far right is problematic and even engages in occasional acts of violence. In other places it is more benign, law obedient and basically harmless. Putting everyone into the same bag and calling them fascists is ignoring plenty of local, political and historical nuances. That being said, animosity towards foreigners or direct assaults on them may arise spontaneously, with the perpetrators not being associated with any political movement. Silly and irresponsible immigration policy is likely to cause racial conflicts sooner or later. Humans are territorial animals.

I agree with the rest of your post. It's not only about the Muslim immigrants or terrorists. Most people simply have enough of German hegemony. Just today, I've heard in the news that Germans together with the French and Italian governments plan to turn the EU into some sort of federation with individual countries being even more deprived of their sovereignty despite the negative opinion of other member countries. It's quite obvious that they didn't draw any lesson from Brexit.

Atman · Jan 12, 2017

For all of those who scream and wail at the OP over his support for the nationalist movements, I must ask a simple question: What have you done to prevent this sort of situation from arising? The nativism, nationalism, and in (some cases) neo-fascism that the new right parties often promote are abhorrent, I agree with you. But there will be no shortage of socialists and centrists who migrate towards the far-right, if no coherent alternative is presented. The current structure of the EU does not allow for the sort of economic policies needed to support and protect the middle and lower classes. One cannot continue to fund the welfare state by raising taxes, if the free movement of capital allows the business class to hide their assets somewhere else in the Union where taxes are low. One cannot hope to protect working-class wages, when work can be outsourced to poorer regions in the union, as soon as the owners feel that the workers are asking for too much. One cannot escape the debt trap that is the current austerity program, when they do not have control over their own currency, and economic policy is dictated by a country whose export and financial industries benefit from your continued impoverishment.

I am not a nationalist, nor a racist, nor a nativist, and I am certainly not a fascist. Unlike the OP I would not vote for any of the current populist-right parties in Europe, nor would I ever be likely to vote for a party that ever described it as being of the "populist-right", but I understand why he might do so (and for the record I do not believe him to be a racist, nativist, or a fascist). I do not condone it, but I understand it. If the left doesn't pull its head out of its ***, and start leaving EU controlled economic policy (and for that matter currency) behind, it will only have itself to blame for the rise of a new hate-filled, isolationist, right-wing era. If you're a European my advise is join your country's local left-wing or progressive party. Oust "third-way" and neoliberal leaders as soon as leadership reviews come to pass. If they do not come soon enough, or you are lucky enough to live where new left parties have formed, join them instead. Neoliberalism is finally breathing its last, do not let fascism become its replacement.

Atman · Jan 12, 2017

" In other words, the Italian Prime Minister is just a servant (or vassal) of Angela Merkel. She dictates, he obeys. In France, Hollande does the exact same thing."

I give Hollande some credit here, when he was first elected he really did try to fight the neoliberalism that infects the EU so adversely at present. The 75% tax rate was a left-wing policy that really harkened back to the Keynesian era of the past (back then this would not have been an extreme top rate even in the the "laissez faire capitalist" USA), but the free-flowing movement of capital across borders meant that Hollande's policy ultimately failed to take in the revenue it needed to work (if I have that much money it is pretty inexpensive and easy for me to hide it in another jurisdiction with a lower tax rate, so long as there are no controls on the movement of capital across borders). Barring the ability to end austerity by making the wealthy pay off the debt (still a crapshoot effort in itself, but at least better than dumping the burden of repayment upon the poor), what do you do in a situation like this? Kiss the *** of the person who controls these sorts of policy decisions (Merkel), and hope you don't get it quite as bed a the Southern countries.

Guy Threepwood · Jan 13, 2017

AnnaCzereda said:
I agree with you but only partly. While I personally like Marine Le Pen, I'm not sure about Nationalism in other countries. It all depends on parties and individual people. Much as I hate Mama Merkel, I wouldn't wish to see Nationalists coming to power in Germany for obvious reasons. I can though relate to your feelings. I also voted for the right wing party. They aren't Nationalists but they support this movement. I'm pretty disgusted with the rule of the corrupted center and leftist parties in Poland. Although our new government is frequently attacked by the EU bureaucrats, they have already made decisions that made people's lives easier. They raised incomes and changed some ridiculous laws. Thanks to them I have more money in my purse.

It depends. Not all Nationalists are Fascists. For example, Polish Nationalists have always been deeply patriotic. When the Germans occupied Poland, they didn't collaborated with the Nazis but fought them along with other guerrillas.

remember also- NAZI was an abbreviation of nationalSOCIALIST

Saint Frankenstein · Jan 13, 2017

Guy Threepwood said:
remember also- NAZI was an abbreviation of nationalSOCIALIST

Guy Threepwood · Jan 13, 2017

Saint Frankenstein said:

sorry if this embarrasses any socialists

The European left-wing has betrayed European nations

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