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Did Jesus and or Mary ever believe in Trinity?

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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
pcarl said:
That's an interesting take sense the Easter event was a Jewish faith experience. Kings 17: 17-24, the widow at Zarephath, whom God commanded, at the time of the famine, to feed the prophet Elijah, although she was in great poverty. After dividing her last supplies with the prophet, God multiplied her meal and oil so she, her son, and Elijah maintained enough throughout the famine.
"After this the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became ill; and his illness was so severe that there was no breath lift in him. And she said to Elijah, "What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!" And he said to her, " Give me your son". And he took him from her bosom, and carried him up into the upper chamber, where he lodged, and laid him upon his own bed. And he cried to the Lord, "O Lord my God, let this child's soul come into him again." And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Elijah; and the soul came into him again, and he revived. (1Kings)

" Come, let us return to the Lord; for he has torn, that he may heal us...., after two days he will revive us; on the third he will raise us up that we may live before him." Hos, 6 : 1-2.

Our masters taught: "I kill and I make alive" (Deut. 32 :39). One might think that one person would experience the killing and the other the making alive as it is customary in the world; but the nest says "I wound and I heal. As wounding and healing applied to one and the same person, so also killing and making alive applied to one and the same person. This provides an answer for those who say that the resurrection of the dead cannot be proved from Torah (Sanhedrin 91b)
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The motion Elijah went through to make that boy breathe again was no different from resuscitation; only reported in a very crude manner. Elijah and Elisha were masters in schools of prophets. They had disciples aka the disciples of the prophets. (II Kings 6:1) It was part of being a prophet to get training on "first-aid" treatment. Elisha also had a similar case with the boy who had got a sun stroke if you read II Kings 4:34-37. Now, regarding "I wound and I heal", "I kill and make alive", etc. is a reference to the fact that, because HaShem created both the one who wounds and the one who heals, the one who kills and the one who makes alive, it is given as an euphemism that HaShem does all for having created the authors of the actions. That's according to the concept of Causality. When HaShem caused the first couple to exist, He commanded them to grow and multiply. Genesis 1:28) For having caused the first to exist, even to this very day we like to say that HaShem is the author of life. He is no doubt but by making use of His creation.
 
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P

pearl

Well-Known Member
Ben Avraham said:
The motion Elijah went through to make that boy breathe again was no different from resuscitation; only reported in a very crude manner. Elijah and Elisha were masters in schools of prophets. They had disciples aka the disciples of the prophets. (II Kings 6:1) It was part of being a prophet to get training on "first-aid" treatment. Elisha also had a similar case with the boy who had got a sun stroke if you read II Kings 4:34-37. Now, regarding "I wound and I heal", "I kill and make alive", etc. is a reference to the fact that, because HaShem created both the one who wounds and the one that heals, the one who kills and the one who makes alive, it is given as an euphemism that HaShem does all for having created the authors of the actions. That's according to the concept of Causality. When HaShem caused the first couple to exist, He commanded them to grow and multiply. For having caused the first to exist, even to this very day we like to say that HaShem is the author of life. He is no doubt but by making use of His creation.
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Its important to realize the time period of the Resurrection and the widely held belief among the Pharisees. Paul recounts his having to appear before the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead I am on trial." And when he had said this, dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided.

The Thirteen Articles of Faith of Maimonides, as in the regular liturgy of the synagogue; "I believe with full conviction that there will be a resurrection of the dead at a time which will please the creator." Part of the 18 benedictions; Thou, O Lord, art mighty for ever, thou revives the dead...and keepest thy faith to them that sleep in the dust. Yea, faithful art thou to revive the dead. Blessed are thou, O Lord, who revives the dead.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
Shad said:
Yes. The Gospel of John and Paul's letters contain the Trinity in the most open statements. Other reference are not as clear as it uses OT references in compassion to NT verses
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Chapters and verses please.


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O

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Skwim said:
Chapters and verses please.


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Jn 1:1established 2 parts of the Trinity, but you need to start in Genesis 1:1


When you see "God" in the Bible, it is Elohim. Elohim is singular noun with a plural ending. Now jump to Gen 1:26. The "us" and "our" refers to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. There are other verse that make a connection to this, but since you wont believe them, why bother?
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Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
Shad said:
John 10:30, John 12:45 John 14:9 Matthew 28:19, 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Colossians 1:15-27 are the clearest examples without actually reading the whole Bible.
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John 10:30
I and the Father are one. Nope, no mention of the trinity.

John 12:45
And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me. Nope, no mention of the trinity.

John 14:9
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Nope, no mention of the trinity.

Matthew 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: Nope, no mention of the trinity.

1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. Nope, no mention of the trinity.

Colossians 1:15-27
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; ......
......to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Nope, no mention of the trinity.

Sorry, but you've struck out.


.
 
Reggie Miller

Reggie Miller

Well-Known Member
Skwim said:
John 10:30
I and the Father are one. Nope, no mention of the trinity.

John 12:45
And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me. Nope, no mention of the trinity.

John 14:9
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Nope, no mention of the trinity.

Matthew 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: Nope, no mention of the trinity.

1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. Nope, no mention of the trinity.

Colossians 1:15-27
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; ......
......to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Nope, no mention of the trinity.

Sorry, but you've struck out.


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Got a verse or two from the NT where the trinity is specifically denied?

Seems as though you've struck out, too. Again.
 
Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Kemosloby said:
Yes in some form...I get the impression that God is three seperate things but work as one.

Matt 28:18

The Great Commission
…Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
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Everything he said of himself, he also taught. You baptize in your own name, being sons of the Father, who is the Holy Spirit.
 
Shad

Shad

Veteran Member
Skwim said:
John 10:30
I and the Father are one. Nope, no mention of the trinity.

John 12:45
And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me. Nope, no mention of the trinity.

John 14:9
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Nope, no mention of the trinity.

Matthew 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: Nope, no mention of the trinity.

1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. Nope, no mention of the trinity.

Colossians 1:15-27
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; ......
......to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Nope, no mention of the trinity.

Sorry, but you've struck out.


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So the word directly must be in the text. You can not figure out that Matthew 28:19 is a trinity itself or John 10:30 stating Jesus and the Father are one. I guess inference using technique of speech and literature are lost skill sets.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
Shad said:
So the word directly must be in the text. You can not figure out that Matthew 28:19 is a trinity itself or John 10:30 stating Jesus and the Father are one.
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I recognize them as the parts of the trinity, but this doesn't mean the verse is referring to the trinity. It couldn't have because the trinity wasn't voted into being until 381 AD at Council of Constantinople, long after Matthew had been penned. So, in the case of the trinity being mentioned in the Bible, not just its parts, yes it would have to be explicitly mentioned. It's just like the fact that although it was long recognized that a right triangle had three side whose ratios varied with a change in any one side, the ratios of these sides amounted to A² + B² = C², a fact not recognized until Pythagoras proved it in the 6th century BCE.


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Shad

Shad

Veteran Member
Skwim said:
I recognize them as the parts of the trinity, but this doesn't mean the verse is referring to the trinity. It couldn't have because the trinity wasn't voted into being until 381 AD at Council of Constantinople, long after Matthew had been penned.
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No it was ratified. To even vote on something mean it already exists.

So, in the case of the trinity being mentioned in the Bible, not just its parts, yes it would have to be explicitly mentioned.
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Nonsense. The inference is there as it actually is the basis of development due to the incarnation christology from the Gospel of John, doxologies in the Epistles and baptismal formula. Origen's work was a basis for two competing views point discussed at the council cited. There are actually 4 major view points developed from the NT including the trinity.
 
B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
pcarl said:
But the NT presents the collection of writings from the tradition of the Apostles. The Gospels are dependent on the preaching of the Apostles.
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All the gospels and the whole of the NT were written on the basis of the teachings of Paul. No gospel writer ever saw Jesus or any of his apostles. The gospel of Jesus was the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed it would ever rise.
 
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B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
pcarl said:
Its important to realize the time period of the Resurrection and the widely held belief among the Pharisees. Paul recounts his having to appear before the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead I am on trial." And when he had said this, dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided.

The Thirteen Articles of Faith of Maimonides, as in the regular liturgy of the synagogue; "I believe with full conviction that there will be a resurrection of the dead at a time which will please the creator." Part of the 18 benedictions; Thou, O Lord, art mighty for ever, thou revives the dead...and keepest thy faith to them that sleep in the dust. Yea, faithful art thou to revive the dead. Blessed are thou, O Lord, who revives the dead.
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Paul was lying and, let me tell you how. The day of his arrest, he was in the temple making believe he was fulfilling a vow. Jews from Asia Minor acknowledged him in the Temple as the one throughout Diaspora preaching against Moses aka the Law and against the Sanctuary. (Acts 21:21) Whether that was true or not, it was the reason why he was arrested. Taken to the Sanhedrin, he answer the question why he had been arrested by saying that it was because of his hope in the resurrection.

Now, regarding the Pharisees, the definition is that the Sect of the Pharisees was the Sect of the separated ones. One of the distinctions from the other sects of Judaism was that they would never accept a Hellenistic Jew to join the Sect. Therefore, that was Paul's second lie about the reason why he was arrested. Because he was a Hellenistic Jew and obviously could not be a Pharisee.

And for the Thirteen Articles of Faith by Maimonides, the reference to resurrection of the dead was about the exiled Jews at the time of return. It happens that, if you read Isaiah 53:8,9 to be exiled from the Land of Israel, was for the Jews the same as being cut off from the Land of the Living and being assigned to graves among the nations. At the end of the exile, HaShem would open up those graves and bring the Jews back to the Land of Israel. (Ezekiel 37:12) Maimonides would not contradict the Tanach so blatantly if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9)
 
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