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Angellous vs Angellous: Is the Bible Inerrant?

  • Thread starter angellous_evangellous
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
That is, the fact that you and your friends don't think that you're putting the Bible on the same level as God does not mean that you don't actually do it. In fact, it is more than obvious that you do.

Either way your criticism that we elevate the Bible to the level of God is safegaurded in the Chicago document itself.

You said:
It elevates human beings to the status of gods. Only God is perfect, and the only media by which God can perfectly be revealed as God is through Jesus Christ Himself. We have an ancient doctrine that Christ is the perfect media of God's revelation of Godself. To elevate Scripture to a level of perfection is to put it on the same level as God.

However, Article 9 plainly disallows you from making that criticism:

"We affirm that inspiration, through not conferring omniscience, guaranteed true and trustworthy utterance on all matters of which the Biblical authors were moved to speak and write.

We deny that the finitude or falseness of these writers, by necessity or otherwise, introduced distortion or falsehood into God's Word."
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
However, Article 9 plainly disallows you from making that criticism:

"We affirm that inspiration, through not conferring omniscience, guaranteed true and trustworthy utterance on all matters of which the Biblical authors were moved to speak and write.

We deny that the finitude or falseness of these writers, by necessity or otherwise, introduced distortion or falsehood into God's Word."

Article 9 only addresses the writers, who indeed would have to be near comatose to remove themselves from making no errors - they would have to be completely under the control of God the whole time - unable to contribute anything themselves.

I was referring only to the finished product of Scripture and not the authors.

So does the document prevent me from making my original cricism?

EDIT: By the way, I find the idolatry of the Chicago statement explicit:

"The word 'canon', signifying a rule of standard, is a pointer to authority, which means the right to rule and control. Authority in Christianity belongs to God in His revelation, which means, on the one hand, Jesus Christ, the living Word, and, on the other hand, Holy Scripture, the written Word."
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
I was referring only to the finished product of Scripture and not the authors.

You don't remember writing this?

angellous_evangellous said:
It elevates human beings to the status of gods.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
You don't remember writing this?

Ah, I see my mistake.

Thanks.

Quite right, the document does indeed keep me from saying that it elevates the writers of the Bible to the status of gods - but my criticism still applies to the autographs.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
So does the document prevent me from making my original cricism?

Yes - inasmuch as it applies to human beings.

I cannot find anything in the document that prevents the autographs themselves from being on the same status as God. Perhaps you can grant us that while the autographs themselves were perfect as God is perfect because they are a product of God, that they are not worthy of worship because they do not possess qualities that we attribute only to God: His creative power, majesty, and love. We do not recognize the Bible as a person, but the Written Word.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
Yes - inasmuch as it applies to human beings.

I cannot find anything in the document that prevents the autographs themselves from being on the same status as God. Perhaps you can grant us that while the autographs themselves were perfect as God is perfect because they are a product of God, that they are not worthy of worship because they do not possess qualities that we attribute only to God: His creative power, majesty, and love. We do not recognize the Bible as a person, but the Written Word.

But this statement from the Chicago document is so flagarant that I cannot excuse the idolatry: "Jesus Christ, the living Word, and, on the other hand, Holy Scripture, the written Word."

 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I will now move on to expound on the points listed in the OP.

1) Biblically supported

I believe that the doctrine of inerrancy is actually in the Scriptures.

It is found in Deut. 13:1-5 and 18:20-22; Matt. 5:17-20 and John 10:34-35, and Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
You've cleverly left out my favorite prooftext.


You must spread some Karma around before giving it to $userinfo[username] again.

Dam!
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
The doctrine of inerrancy is actually in the Scriptures.

It is found in Deut. 13:1-5 and 18:20-22; Matt. 5:17-20 and John 10:34-35, and Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18.

Deut 13.1-5

1"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil[a] from your midst.

The exhortation to not follow after false prophets assumes that the original message of the prophets are perfectly intact - otherwise, the command cannot be kept. Furthermore, unless the prophet's words are perfectly preserved, there is no way to know if we should put them to death.

Deut 18.20-22 is similar:

20But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or[a] who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' 21And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?'-- 22when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
If the Bible is errant, then a jot or tittle (the smallest part of the Bible) will pass away and Jesus is a liar.

Matt. 5.17-20

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
If the Bible is errant, than the Scripture would be broken...

John 10:34-35

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be broken--
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
The doctrine of inerrancy is actually in the Scriptures.

It is found in Deut. 13:1-5 and 18:20-22; Matt. 5:17-20 and John 10:34-35, and Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18.

Deut 13.1-5

1"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil[a] from your midst.

The exhortation to not follow after false prophets assumes that the original message of the prophets are perfectly intact - otherwise, the command cannot be kept. Furthermore, unless the prophet's words are perfectly preserved, there is no way to know if we should put them to death.

Deut 18.20-22 is similar:

20But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or[a] who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' 21And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?'-- 22when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Indeed, I would expect that if I were on trial that the jury would have the best evidence possible to condemn me, and perfect evidence would be the best.

However, since perfect records do not exist because we are mere mortals, we cannot expect that anyone ever had a perfect record of anything.

 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
If the Bible is errant, then a jot or tittle (the smallest part of the Bible) will pass away and Jesus is a liar.

Matt. 5.17-20

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

This argument cannot be sustained because I can show you that "jots and tittles" indeed have passed away.

I will email you pics of P66 - and see if I can post them here - that clearly show jots and tittles being removed from portions of the Gospel of John.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
However, since perfect records do not exist because we are mere mortals, we cannot expect that anyone ever had a perfect record of anything.

The fact that humans cannot produce a perfect document is not evidence that God could not do it through us.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
The fact that humans cannot produce a perfect document is not evidence that God could not do it through us.

The mere fact that nothing exists that is perfect is convincing enough for me. There are no original manuscripts, and all of the remaining copies are imperfect, leaving no evidence at all for any conclusions regarding the originals.

We can't just go around making baseless statements and criticizing the "skeptics" because they have no evidence to resist the finality of the claim.

You're claiming inerrancy while all of the relevant evidence suggests otherwise.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
This argument cannot be sustained because I can show you that "jots and tittles" indeed have passed away.


I will email you pics of P66 - and see if I can post them here - that clearly show jots and tittles being removed from portions of the Gospel of John.

We don't claim that the copies are inerrant - obviously they are - but their close proximity to eachother suggests a perfect original.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
We don't claim that the copies are inerrant - obviously they are - but their close proximity to eachother suggests a perfect original.

In what way can the imperfect suggest perfection?


Are you saying that of the 20k Greek mss (not to mention the Coptic and Latin) with no two of them exactly the same suggest that the originals are perfect. Moreover, without saying that the original authors were not god-like...

EDIT: There's no such thing as partial perfection. Either it is or it isn't perfect.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
AE said:
In what way can the imperfect suggest perfection?

I think that I might be able to follow some of your favorite ancient writers here: Xenophon and Cicero.

Memorabilia, 2.3.17-19

What if a pair of hands refused the office of mutual help for which God made them, and tried to thwart each other; or if a pair of feet neglected the duty of working together, for which they were fashioned, and took to hampering each other? That is how you two are behaving at present. [19] Would it not be utterly senseless and disastrous to use for hindrance instruments that were made for help? And, moreover, a pair of brothers, in my judgment, were made by God to render better service one to the other than a pair of hands and feet and eyes and all the instruments that he meant to be used as fellows. For the hands cannot deal simultaneously with things that are more than six feet or so apart: the feet cannot reach in a single stride things that are even six feet apart: and the eyes, though they seem to have a longer range, cannot at the same moment see things still nearer than that, if some are in front and some behind. But two brothers, when they are friends, act simultaneously for mutual benefit, however far parted one from the other.”

Cicero, On Laws, 1.30
"—I will not detain you long. Since you grant me the existence of God, and the superintendence of Providence, I maintain that he has been especially beneficent to man. This human animal—prescient, sagacious, complex, acute, full of memory, reason and counsel, which we call man,—is generated by the supreme God in a more transcendent condition than most of his fellow–creatures. For he is the only creature among the earthly races of animated beings endued with superior reason and thought, in which the rest are deficient. And what is there, I do not say in man alone, but in all heaven and earth, more divine than reason, which, when it becomes ripe and perfect, is justly termed wisdom?

There exists, therefore, since nothing is better than reason, and since this is the common property of God and man, a certain aboriginal rational intercourse between divine and human natures. This reason, which is common to both, therefore, can be none other than right reason; and since this right reason is what we call Law, God and men are said by Law to be consociated. Between whom, since there is a communion of law, there must be also a communication of Justice.

Law and Justice being thus the common rule of immortals and mortals, it follows that they are both the fellow–citizens of one city and commonwealth. And if they are obedient to the same rule, the same authority and denomination, they may with still closer propriety be termed fellow–citizens, since one celestial regency, one divine mind, one omnipotent Deity then regulates all their thoughts and actions.
This universe, therefore, forms one immeasurable Commonwealth and city, common alike to gods and mortals. And as in earthly states, certain particular laws, which we shall hereafter describe, govern the particular relationships of kindred tribes; so in the nature of things doth an universal law, far more magnificent and resplendent, regulate the affairs of that universal city where gods and men compose one vast association.

When we thus reason on universal nature, we are accustomed to reason after this method. We believe that in the long course of ages and the uninterrupted succession of celestial revolutions, the seed of the human race was sown on our planet, and being scattered over the earth, was animated by the divine gift of souls. Thus men retained from their terrestrial origin, their perishable and mortal bodies, while their immortal spirits were ingenerated by Deity. From which consideration we are bold to say that we possess a certain consanguinity and kindred fellowship with the celestials. And so far as we know, among all the varieties of animals, man alone retains the idea of the Divinity. And among men there is no nation so savage and ferocious as to deny the necessity of worshipping God, however ignorant it may be respecting the nature of his attributes. From whence we conclude that every man must recognize a Deity, who considers the origin of his nature and the progress of his life.

Now the law of virtue is the same in God and man, and cannot possibly be diverse. This virtue is nothing else than a nature perfect in itself, and developed in all its excellence. There exists therefore a similitude between God and man; nor can any knowledge be more appropriate and sterling than what relates to this divine similitude.

Nature, attentive to our wants, offers us her treasures with the most graceful profusion. And it is easy to perceive that the benefits which flow from her are true and veritable gifts, which Providence has provided on purpose for human enjoyment, and not the fortuitous productions of her exuberant fecundity. Her liberality appears, not only in the fruits and vegetables which gush from the bosom of the earth, but likewise in cattle and the beasts of the field. It is clear that some of these are intended for the advantage of mankind, a part for propagation, and a part for food. Innumerable arts have likewise been discovered by the teaching of nature; for her doth reason imitate, and skilfully discover all things necessary to the happiness of life.

With respect to man this same bountiful nature hath not merely allotted him a subtle and active spirit, but moreover favoured him with physical senses, like so many guardians and messengers. Thus has she improved our understanding in relation to many obscure principles, and laid the foundation of practical knowledge; and in all respects moulded our corporeal faculties to the service of our intellectual genius. For while she has debased the forms of other animals, who live to eat rather than eat to live, she has bestowed on man an erect stature, and an open countenance, and thus prompted him to the contemplation of heaven, the ancient home of his kindred immortals. So exquisitely, too, hath she fashioned the features of the human face, as to make them symbolic of the most recondite thoughts and sentiments. As for our two eloquent eyes (oculi nimis arguti), do they not speak forth every impulse and passion of our souls? And that which we call expression, in which we infinitely excel all the inferior animals, how marvellously it delineates all our speculations and feelings! Of this the Greeks well knew the meaning, though they had no word for it.
I will not enlarge on the wonderful faculties and qualities of the rest of the body, the modulation of the voice, and the power of oratory, which is perhaps the greatest instrument of our influence over human society. These matters do not belong to the occasion of our present discourse, and I think that Scipio has already sufficiently explained them in those books of mine which you have read.

As the Deity, therefore, was pleased to create man as the chief and president of all terrestrial creatures, so it is evident, without further argument, that human nature has made the greatest advances by its intrinsic energy; that nature, which without any other instruction than her own, has developed the first rude principles of the understanding, and strengthened and perfected reason to all the appliances of science and art."

As we can see, both Xenophon and Cicero used the human body - which we can agree is imperfect due to our selfishness - points to God.

The imperfect points to the perfect.

We have a body of Scripture that is imperfect in its current form but incredibly useful.
 
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